Political thought - Leader on the threat from the illiberal left - Don’t underestimate the danger of left-leaning identity politics

ruby-talk
21

Hello Ismail, I think you raise some good points here.

I think there are a couple reasons for #1 ... the core devs come from a C
background, and I would guess that in this mindset, graphical design is
less important than raw information. Also, I think that as the Ruby
community has become somewhat smaller with the surge of use in JS and
Python in the past few years, there are just less people involved to pick
up this sort of work.

Comparing to the JS world, where so many sites are quite impressive
graphically -- it makes sense that JS devs would be able to bring a lot
more graphical skills to the table.

IMO, I think Ruby will continue as a niche language for the foreseeable
future. It inspired a whole slew of technologies that we use today. The
Ruby team continues to innovate, looks like 3.1 will be pretty awesome, and
maybe at some point the world will realize how much Python really sucks.
(Probably not). But hey, Betamax was better than VHS ... Ford is better
than Chevy ... what can you do ... :joy:

Cheers !

···

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 12:22 PM İsmail Arılık <arilik.ismail@gmail.com> wrote:

Current shortcomings of Ruby:

   1. A better-designed website (I expressed my concern somewhere else,
   too, but I don't know the *how* but it's obvious that even raw
   Bootstrap looks better though)
   2. A self-moderated and modern discussion platform (Discourse might
   be, I have some background about installing and managing it so I can help)

22

Expecting about four more Unsubscribe’s from this discussion as well. Will you please keep this mailing list to talk about technical aspects of Ruby only. Does anyone have power to remove people? Jeez this list is going out of control.

Sincerely,
Nicholas Gallimore

···

On Oct 1, 2021, at 12:32 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether.joe@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 12:22 PM İsmail Arılık <arilik.ismail@gmail.com> wrote:
Current shortcomings of Ruby:
A better-designed website (I expressed my concern somewhere else, too, but I don't know the how but it's obvious that even raw Bootstrap looks better though)
A self-moderated and modern discussion platform (Discourse might be, I have some background about installing and managing it so I can help)

Hello Ismail, I think you raise some good points here.

I think there are a couple reasons for #1 ... the core devs come from a C background, and I would guess that in this mindset, graphical design is less important than raw information. Also, I think that as the Ruby community has become somewhat smaller with the surge of use in JS and Python in the past few years, there are just less people involved to pick up this sort of work.

Comparing to the JS world, where so many sites are quite impressive graphically -- it makes sense that JS devs would be able to bring a lot more graphical skills to the table.

IMO, I think Ruby will continue as a niche language for the foreseeable future. It inspired a whole slew of technologies that we use today. The Ruby team continues to innovate, looks like 3.1 will be pretty awesome, and maybe at some point the world will realize how much Python really sucks. (Probably not). But hey, Betamax was better than VHS ... Ford is better than Chevy ... what can you do ... :joy:

Cheers !

Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-talk-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=unsubscribe>
<http://lists.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/ruby-talk&gt;

23

I concur with Sean. That's what filters are for :grin:

Edward

···

On 01.10.21 18:24, Sean Felipe Wolfe wrote:

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 12:08 PM Frederico de Oliveira Linhares > <fredlinhares@hotmail.com.br <mailto:fredlinhares@hotmail.com.br>> wrote:

    Two days of a meltdown about identity politics caused by a
    harmless joke: on-topic.
    A comment about Voltaire and freedom of expression: off-topic.
    The level of cynicism in this mailing list is remarkable.

    I am done with this list; my life is stressful enough. So where
    can I talk about Ruby with decent people?
    If you know about a better mailing list, or maybe a forum, group
    in a social media, etc... please send me a private e-mail. I will
    be unsubscribing soon.

Hello !

Speaking for myself, I tend to just ignore / mute the off-topic
conversations. Easier to not engage. But, it does give the impression
perhaps that people don't care.

I continue to love the Ruby language and the community in general.
There will always be people wanting to get into a dustup and those
people tend to have plenty of energy. Meanwhile others just have
things to do :stuck_out_tongue:

#minaswan FTW !!

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--
Freundliche Grüsse

Edward Caulfield

24

Python is freaking terrible!

It's a disgusting language.

···

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 12:32 PM Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether.joe@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 12:22 PM İsmail Arılık <arilik.ismail@gmail.com> > wrote:

Current shortcomings of Ruby:

   1. A better-designed website (I expressed my concern somewhere else,
   too, but I don't know the *how* but it's obvious that even raw
   Bootstrap looks better though)
   2. A self-moderated and modern discussion platform (Discourse might
   be, I have some background about installing and managing it so I can help)

Hello Ismail, I think you raise some good points here.

I think there are a couple reasons for #1 ... the core devs come from a C
background, and I would guess that in this mindset, graphical design is
less important than raw information. Also, I think that as the Ruby
community has become somewhat smaller with the surge of use in JS and
Python in the past few years, there are just less people involved to pick
up this sort of work.

Comparing to the JS world, where so many sites are quite impressive
graphically -- it makes sense that JS devs would be able to bring a lot
more graphical skills to the table.

IMO, I think Ruby will continue as a niche language for the foreseeable
future. It inspired a whole slew of technologies that we use today. The
Ruby team continues to innovate, looks like 3.1 will be pretty awesome, and
maybe at some point the world will realize how much Python really sucks.
(Probably not). But hey, Betamax was better than VHS ... Ford is better
than Chevy ... what can you do ... :joy:

Cheers !

Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-talk-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=unsubscribe>
<http://lists.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/ruby-talk&gt;

25

The current Ruby-lang site was a mild re-design from the previous version, by Jim Gay, which was one of the best-looking sites of its time. It was realized in RadiantCMS, which was a very design-forward yet Rubyesque CMS. Truly elegant and minimal. Excellent use of whitespace and typography.

The current site is done in Jekyll, and no doubt has much better performance, since it is static HTML, but the translation missed some of the fine strokes of the original design.

Oh well. We move along. If you have some ideas for an improvement, the site is open: Home · ruby/www.ruby-lang.org Wiki · GitHub

Walter

···

On Oct 1, 2021, at 12:31 PM, Sean Felipe Wolfe <ether.joe@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 12:22 PM İsmail Arılık <arilik.ismail@gmail.com> wrote:
Current shortcomings of Ruby:
  • A better-designed website (I expressed my concern somewhere else, too, but I don't know the how but it's obvious that even raw Bootstrap looks better though)
  • A self-moderated and modern discussion platform (Discourse might be, I have some background about installing and managing it so I can help)

Hello Ismail, I think you raise some good points here.

I think there are a couple reasons for #1 ... the core devs come from a C background, and I would guess that in this mindset, graphical design is less important than raw information. Also, I think that as the Ruby community has become somewhat smaller with the surge of use in JS and Python in the past few years, there are just less people involved to pick up this sort of work.

Comparing to the JS world, where so many sites are quite impressive graphically -- it makes sense that JS devs would be able to bring a lot more graphical skills to the table.

IMO, I think Ruby will continue as a niche language for the foreseeable future. It inspired a whole slew of technologies that we use today. The Ruby team continues to innovate, looks like 3.1 will be pretty awesome, and maybe at some point the world will realize how much Python really sucks. (Probably not). But hey, Betamax was better than VHS ... Ford is better than Chevy ... what can you do ... :joy:

Cheers !

Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-talk-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=unsubscribe>
<http://lists.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/ruby-talk&gt;

26

very interesting !

I use Jekyll for some personal work. TBH I have not been 100% satisfied,
and I've encountered a bug or two, but it's functional. The pages *are*
extremely fast.

···

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:10 PM Walter Lee Davis <waltd@wdstudio.com> wrote:

The current Ruby-lang site was a mild re-design from the previous version,
by Jim Gay, which was one of the best-looking sites of its time. It was
realized in RadiantCMS, which was a very design-forward yet Rubyesque CMS.
Truly elegant and minimal. Excellent use of whitespace and typography.

The current site is done in Jekyll, and no doubt has much better
performance, since it is static HTML, but the translation missed some of
the fine strokes of the original design.

Oh well. We move along. If you have some ideas for an improvement, the
site is open: Home · ruby/www.ruby-lang.org Wiki · GitHub

Walter

27

Yes. What's up with this mailing list lately?

···

On Fri, 1 Oct 2021, 11:57 Xavier Noria, <fxn@hashref.com> wrote:

El dv, 1 oct 2021 a les 10:22 Gerald Bauer <gerald.bauer@gmail.com> va
escriure:

     It looks like "behind the backdoors" without any discussion on

this very ruby-talk list some self-appointed illiberal lefties try to
bring (force onto you, really)

This is a technical mailing list. Please, stay on topic.

Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-talk-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=unsubscribe>
<http://lists.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/ruby-talk&gt;

28

To answer your question: my impression is that the conflict grew a bit out
of proportion because people from both sides tried to insistently convince
the other side of their own opinion. Then it got blown into the area of
freedom of speech and thus fundamental political values which often lead to
heated debate. Since traffic here is way lower than it used to be in the
old days such conflicts tend to stand out a bit.

On the bright side: it shows that there is more life and energy in
ruby-talk than I thought. So the community is very much alive. This is good
news for Ruby. :slight_smile:

···

On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 6:47 AM Murgor Naftali <murgornaftali@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes. What's up with this mailing list lately?

On Fri, 1 Oct 2021, 11:57 Xavier Noria, <fxn@hashref.com> wrote:

El dv, 1 oct 2021 a les 10:22 Gerald Bauer <gerald.bauer@gmail.com> va
escriure:

     It looks like "behind the backdoors" without any discussion on

this very ruby-talk list some self-appointed illiberal lefties try to
bring (force onto you, really)

This is a technical mailing list. Please, stay on topic.

Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-talk-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=unsubscribe>
<http://lists.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/ruby-talk&gt;

Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-talk-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=unsubscribe>
<http://lists.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/ruby-talk&gt;

--
[guy, jim, charlie, sho].each {|him| remember.him do |as, often| as.you_can
- without end}
http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/

29

Yes. What's up with this mailing list lately?

We'll get through it. Ruby still rocks. :fire::fire::fire:

···

On Sat, Oct 2, 2021, 12:47 AM Murgor Naftali <murgornaftali@gmail.com> wrote:

30

Tbh I don't even know what was the joke, but: "the danger of communist
left-leaning identity politics" to defend a sexist joke? Seriously?

You know what, I've also been doing free software for some time and
despite all the love I have for ruby, computer algorithms, the free
software movement... I'd gladly exchange all that, and much more, for a
world where people can have a good time without systematically putting
others down.

Just so you know, I couldn't care less about your football-obsessed
gems, pixel art or whatever other _contributions_ you might've done, and
if by any chance you did something that is indeed valuable to me, it
will never ever repay the energy drained and the damage inflicted on the
fabric of society by people like you, who insist in _defending your
right to be a biggot_ ~ I'm not thankful.

I'm angry and tired of crap like this. Not only in this mailing list but
in virtually every single space I go. I'm tired of constantly being
targeted and having to argue with self-entitled white men.

It would be lovely if reason and kind words were able to reach your
hearts... but I don't believe they will and I don't want to pay the
price of trying.

For that reason, I hope you get banned from this list, just like one of
you got from reddit recently, so I and others won't have to be offended
anymore.

No regards at all,

···

--
pudiva chip líquida (she/her)

31

Would you recommend that I try to find peers on r/ruby, Y Combinator Hacker
News, or some other site?

Robert, why is this mailing list less active than it used to be?

I'm legitimately trying to start up literally dozens of free software
projects, I have working code in most cases, but I haven't gotten
responses, I'm still waiting on people who indicated some interest.

Matz's head is on right. People need to take charge of computers for THEIR
needs.

I have a very different user interface for interacting with computers, as
this image shows

1280×800 312 KB

But, THERE ARE FAR TOO FEW PEOPLE LIKE MATZ, OR LIKE THE ORIGINAL CREATORS
OF C

We should all not tolerate hard to use software. Ruby is not this (a hard
to use piece of software).

It's kind of incredible how a Japanese programmer could have such a
significant impact on the international programming scene.

That shows the value of Ruby :slight_smile:

We should all collectively protest crappy AI systems, and crappy user
interfaces.

THEY ARE IMPERILING OUR SURVIVAL.

If we can't use machines, machines will use us.

Explicitly put

···

-----------------------------------------------------

I am looking for others to work on free software with me.

I don't use reddit or Hacker News. If someone wants to post links to my
stuff there, that would help.

Looking forward towards the future,
Gregory Cohen

On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 6:21 AM Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> wrote:

To answer your question: my impression is that the conflict grew a bit out
of proportion because people from both sides tried to insistently convince
the other side of their own opinion. Then it got blown into the area of
freedom of speech and thus fundamental political values which often lead to
heated debate. Since traffic here is way lower than it used to be in the
old days such conflicts tend to stand out a bit.

On the bright side: it shows that there is more life and energy in
ruby-talk than I thought. So the community is very much alive. This is good
news for Ruby. :slight_smile:

On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 6:47 AM Murgor Naftali <murgornaftali@gmail.com> > wrote:

Yes. What's up with this mailing list lately?

On Fri, 1 Oct 2021, 11:57 Xavier Noria, <fxn@hashref.com> wrote:

El dv, 1 oct 2021 a les 10:22 Gerald Bauer <gerald.bauer@gmail.com> va
escriure:

     It looks like "behind the backdoors" without any discussion on

this very ruby-talk list some self-appointed illiberal lefties try to
bring (force onto you, really)

This is a technical mailing list. Please, stay on topic.

Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-talk-request@ruby-lang.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
<http://lists.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/ruby-talk&gt;

Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-talk-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=unsubscribe>
<http://lists.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/ruby-talk&gt;

--
[guy, jim, charlie, sho].each {|him| remember.him do |as, often|
as.you_can - without end}
http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/

Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-talk-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=unsubscribe>
<http://lists.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/ruby-talk&gt;

32

Hi,

Would you recommend that I try to find peers on r/ruby, Y Combinator
Hacker News, or some other site?

r/ruby seems to have less activity than this mailing list. The others I do
not consume, so no idea.

Robert, why is this mailing list less active than it used to be?

I do not have specific Ruby reasons. A few ideas

   - Mailing lists are generally on the decline as a medium.
   - Ruby hype has passed
   - Maybe even language usage has reduced as well (e.g. lost to Python)
   - Ruby has matured so many of the discussions that we had back then are
   resolved.

It's kind of incredible how a Japanese programmer could have such a
significant impact on the international programming scene.

Why? What is different about Japanese programmers? I find that surprising
that you call out nationality here.

Kind regards

robert

···

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 12:16 AM Gregory Cohen <gregorycohen2@gmail.com> wrote:

--
[guy, jim, charlie, sho].each {|him| remember.him do |as, often| as.you_can
- without end}
http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/

33

I don't know, maybe some people are xenophobic.

Most other programming languages seem to be Western created (e.g., Python
or C)

I'm not xenophobic :slight_smile:

···

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 5:47 AM Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> wrote:

Hi,

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 12:16 AM Gregory Cohen <gregorycohen2@gmail.com> > wrote:

Would you recommend that I try to find peers on r/ruby, Y Combinator
Hacker News, or some other site?

r/ruby seems to have less activity than this mailing list. The others I do
not consume, so no idea.

Robert, why is this mailing list less active than it used to be?

I do not have specific Ruby reasons. A few ideas

   - Mailing lists are generally on the decline as a medium.
   - Ruby hype has passed
   - Maybe even language usage has reduced as well (e.g. lost to Python)
   - Ruby has matured so many of the discussions that we had back then
   are resolved.

It's kind of incredible how a Japanese programmer could have such a
significant impact on the international programming scene.

Why? What is different about Japanese programmers? I find that surprising
that you call out nationality here.

Kind regards

robert

--
[guy, jim, charlie, sho].each {|him| remember.him do |as, often|
as.you_can - without end}
http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/

Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-talk-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=unsubscribe>
<http://lists.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/ruby-talk&gt;

34

For that reason, I hope you get banned from this list,
just like one of you got from reddit recently,
so I and others won't have to be offended anymore.

   I didn't get banned from reddit for your information.
  Ironically I get mobbed from some self-righteous lefties like yourself.

  By the way - like Voltaire - I defend your right to insult me
(and yes, I am human and also hurt and offended by your non-sense).

35

I agree with the hypothesis that Klemme brought up: Ruby usage has
decreased and I think it's a shame because Ruby is a great language
and I want more Ruby programs.
So I hope no one gets banned from the list because of this discussion.
Email is great because you can block senders if you want. I won't do
this to Gerald as I think it was just a joke (a not funny joke - sorry
Gerald). Anyone who disagrees with me can do it. But don't try to
impose your vision on others.

Let's focus on increasing the use of Ruby

36

Hello,

     First thanks for your call for (more) tolerance.

I won't do this to Gerald as I think it was just a joke
(a not funny joke - sorry Gerald)

   Just to clarify - I am only asking for (more) tolerance and not
forcing your politics (illiberal extreme leftie non-sense)
onto others.
The posting (and joke) that started it all reads
(and is from a ruby newbie - I assume - and english as a second
language speaker):

Hello,

Another example - perhaps somebody could fix that
(many errors have that source!)

Date.today

Date.today +1 # no error, but wrong result!

# Maybe this has been written for women, having calculated their age :wink:

  Yes, that is all. Reflect on the insanity of it all.

  For all first-time haters and posters here asking for a ban may I
suggest Mr Ghandi as a role model, that is,

    why not send a new posting with a new subject line about your ruby
topic of choice - ask a question,
highlight a gem or discuss a quirk, article, book or such and so on.
Yes, you can.

    Lead by example and show us that you really care about the
ruby-talk mailing list.

    Anyone?

37

unsubscribe

···

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 5:58 AM Gerald Bauer <gerald.bauer@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello,

     First thanks for your call for (more) tolerance.

> I won't do this to Gerald as I think it was just a joke
> (a not funny joke - sorry Gerald)

   Just to clarify - I am only asking for (more) tolerance and not
forcing your politics (illiberal extreme leftie non-sense)
onto others.
The posting (and joke) that started it all reads
(and is from a ruby newbie - I assume - and english as a second
language speaker):

> Hello,
>
> Another example - perhaps somebody could fix that
> (many errors have that source!)
>
> Date.today
>
> Date.today +1 # no error, but wrong result!
>
> # Maybe this has been written for women, having calculated their age :wink:

  Yes, that is all. Reflect on the insanity of it all.

  For all first-time haters and posters here asking for a ban may I
suggest Mr Ghandi as a role model, that is,

    why not send a new posting with a new subject line about your ruby
topic of choice - ask a question,
highlight a gem or discuss a quirk, article, book or such and so on.
Yes, you can.

    Lead by example and show us that you really care about the
ruby-talk mailing list.

    Anyone?

Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-talk-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=unsubscribe>
<http://lists.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/ruby-talk&gt;

--
Patrick Way
(347) 232-5208

38

Gerald, I am very sorry, but I think you should stop defending yourself.
The joke was not funny, and the fact that you reposted it shows that you
did not learn anything.

You can crack this kind of joke with your friends - no problem. But you did
it on a public mailing list. Do you not understand that there might be
people offended? Don't give me any more of your "I am not racist BUT".
Apologize, and recognize that your joke was of bad taste in this very
context.

But no... You compare yourself to Ghandi, and start a discussion about the
leftist threat.... Dude, you sound delusional to me, and I think you should
talk to a professional.

I have seen your contributions, and I have also seen how butt-hurt you are
over anyone talking sense to you. How about you stop being so self focused,
and start thinking about the people who are subscribed to this list?
If everyone tells you that you are an asshole, then maybe consider the fact
that you act like one!

IDK if this is going to be filtered out, but I wish you all the best
non-the-less
Fabian

39

Hello,

Gerald, I am very sorry, but I think you should stop defending yourself.
The joke was not funny, and the fact that you reposted it shows that you did not learn anything.

You can crack this kind of joke with your friends - no problem.
But you did it on a public mailing list. Do you not understand that there might be people offended?
Don't give me any more of your "I am not racist BUT".
Apologize, and recognize that your joke was of bad taste in this very context.

   Again I am not the original poster of the joke - I am asking for
(more) tolerance.

     And by the way the joke is claimed to be sexist (not racist) -
about the supposed vanity of older women or whatever. It's harmless.
Not sure why you "upgrade" the personal attack to "I am racist"

    And no - I do not compare myself to Ghandi or Voltaire -
  I am saying they are great role models.

  Voltaire => Try (more) tolerance if you want to live together (in peace).

    Ghandi => Act the way you want to change the world, don't talk
(talk is cheap) - that is - do NOT post about self-righteous
illiberal extreme / ultra leftie non-sense politics in ruby-talk (if
you don't want to read it) but why not send a new posting with a new
subject line about your ruby topic of choice - ask a question,
highlight a gem or discuss a quirk, article, book or such and so on?
Yes, you can.

    Lead by example and show us that you really care about the
ruby-talk mailing list.

40

I apologize Gerald, some previous messages made me think you were the
one who made the joke. I went back to the archives and it really
wasn't you. Since I made a mistake in public, I apologize in public.

I won't comment on this anymore and I humbly suggest everyone to do the same.

What is a man? A miserable little pile of errors. But enough talk… Lets code!¹

···

Em ter., 5 de out. de 2021 às 15:22, Gerald Bauer <gerald.bauer@gmail.com> escreveu:

   Again I am not the original poster of the joke - I am asking for
(more) tolerance.