A Welcoming Ruby Community - Calling for A No-Ban Policy - Use A Two/Three Week Suspension For Cool Off Instead

ruby-talk
1

Hello,

  It's unfortunate that I have to write this and I have to even fear
to get banned for life or whatever here too.

  Anyways, due to a private email I got today about a ruby reddit ban
(twice! incl. the banned person humbly asking the mod - yes, Richard
Schneeman - for forgiveness - getting the classic answer:

the reddit ruby mob doesn't like what you offer (hint: your gems are NOT about rails!)
and, thus, humbly accept the mistreatment and bullying -
your feelings don't matter and so on.

1)
   Anyways, the cheerleading here on ruby-talk by Ryan Davis and friends
  when Opti / Die Optimisten got banned is worrying.
   I do not know Opti and his style is not mine
  but getting "triggered" by saying it's a bug is ridiculous and no
cause for a ban.

  Thus, may I humbly ask to start with the policy of no-bans right
here on ruby-talk
  and turn it into a two or three- week suspension for cool-off
and than let's welcome Opti / Die Optimisten back here.

2)

  But back to the mod (or is it the forum nazi?) - yes, Richard Schneeman
  enjoying and taking pleasure in kicking off rubyists from the reddit
  seemingly how he feels like.

   May I again offer an alternative - change the "policy" banning
posters willy-nilly for life and instead start with a no-ban policy.
  If the discussion gets heated or you get reports of harassment,
abuse, spam, etc. than use a two/three week suspension or such.

   For sure there is a case for obvious spammers to ban / kick-off but
  punishing and kicking off rubyists with years of contributions and
dozens of gem is ridiculous and needs to stop.

   Join us in the call for no-bans and making all welcome in
  the ruby community. What's your take?

  Cheers. Prost.

2

Agreed....

We're supposed to be adults here....or we should be regardless of what we actually identify (sic) as.

short term bans only when absolutely necessary.

The world has enough problems---BIG problems...
Ruby and our collaboration are supposed to be tools to help all of us...
we're all different...
So if you don't like what someone says...move on....

cj:)

···

On 8/24/2022 10:27 PM, Gerald Bauer wrote:

Hello,

   It's unfortunate that I have to write this and I have to even fear
to get banned for life or whatever here too.

   Anyways, due to a private email I got today about a ruby reddit ban
(twice! incl. the banned person humbly asking the mod - yes, Richard
Schneeman - for forgiveness - getting the classic answer:

the reddit ruby mob doesn't like what you offer (hint: your gems are NOT about rails!)
  and, thus, humbly accept the mistreatment and bullying -
  your feelings don't matter and so on.

1)
    Anyways, the cheerleading here on ruby-talk by Ryan Davis and friends
   when Opti / Die Optimisten got banned is worrying.
    I do not know Opti and his style is not mine
   but getting "triggered" by saying it's a bug is ridiculous and no
cause for a ban.

   Thus, may I humbly ask to start with the policy of no-bans right
here on ruby-talk
   and turn it into a two or three- week suspension for cool-off
and than let's welcome Opti / Die Optimisten back here.

2)

   But back to the mod (or is it the forum nazi?) - yes, Richard Schneeman
   enjoying and taking pleasure in kicking off rubyists from the reddit
   seemingly how he feels like.

    May I again offer an alternative - change the "policy" banning
posters willy-nilly for life and instead start with a no-ban policy.
   If the discussion gets heated or you get reports of harassment,
abuse, spam, etc. than use a two/three week suspension or such.

    For sure there is a case for obvious spammers to ban / kick-off but
   punishing and kicking off rubyists with years of contributions and
dozens of gem is ridiculous and needs to stop.

    Join us in the call for no-bans and making all welcome in
   the ruby community. What's your take?

   Cheers. Prost.

Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-talk-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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--
If you can't set a good example,
    be a glaring warning.

3

Let’s be clear. When someone repeatedly shits on the carpet of your living room and they’re older than three and not a dog or cat, it’s time to be more harsh than “we’re supposed to be a welcoming community”.

Die Optimisten (“the optimist”) repeatedly asked insensible questions and then ignored or repeatedly got into arguments with people who told him that his question was insensible and gave him repeated reasons why. When called out on this, he started gaslighting the people who called him out.

The same more or less applies to the spammer to whom you’ve replied, although most people have killfiled him because he mostly just spams stupid and useless stuff, at least until he gets onto a libertarian rant about how being against the carpet shitters makes us the real carpet shitters like he is now.

There is welcoming, and then there’s letting the assholes set the tone of your discourse because they enjoy abusing your goodwill.

-a

···

On Aug 24, 2022, at 11:38, Cj <cjsiam@msn.com> wrote:

Agreed....

We're supposed to be adults here....or we should be regardless of what we actually identify (sic) as.

short term bans only when absolutely necessary.

The world has enough problems---BIG problems...
Ruby and our collaboration are supposed to be tools to help all of us...
we're all different...
So if you don't like what someone says...move on....

cj:)

On 8/24/2022 10:27 PM, Gerald Bauer wrote:
Hello,

  It's unfortunate that I have to write this and I have to even fear
to get banned for life or whatever here too.

  Anyways, due to a private email I got today about a ruby reddit ban
(twice! incl. the banned person humbly asking the mod - yes, Richard
Schneeman - for forgiveness - getting the classic answer:

the reddit ruby mob doesn't like what you offer (hint: your gems are NOT about rails!)
and, thus, humbly accept the mistreatment and bullying -
your feelings don't matter and so on.

1)
   Anyways, the cheerleading here on ruby-talk by Ryan Davis and friends
  when Opti / Die Optimisten got banned is worrying.
   I do not know Opti and his style is not mine
  but getting "triggered" by saying it's a bug is ridiculous and no
cause for a ban.

  Thus, may I humbly ask to start with the policy of no-bans right
here on ruby-talk
  and turn it into a two or three- week suspension for cool-off
and than let's welcome Opti / Die Optimisten back here.

2)

  But back to the mod (or is it the forum nazi?) - yes, Richard Schneeman
  enjoying and taking pleasure in kicking off rubyists from the reddit
  seemingly how he feels like.

   May I again offer an alternative - change the "policy" banning
posters willy-nilly for life and instead start with a no-ban policy.
  If the discussion gets heated or you get reports of harassment,
abuse, spam, etc. than use a two/three week suspension or such.

   For sure there is a case for obvious spammers to ban / kick-off but
  punishing and kicking off rubyists with years of contributions and
dozens of gem is ridiculous and needs to stop.

   Join us in the call for no-bans and making all welcome in
  the ruby community. What's your take?

  Cheers. Prost.

Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-talk-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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--
If you can't set a good example,
  be a glaring warning.

Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-talk-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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4

Hello Austin Ziegler,

  Dare I say not sure if I can follow your arguments. Just reading
your commentary and rage and tone
  is not setting a good example

- against the carpet shitters makes us the real carpet shitters like he is now
- there’s letting the assholes set the tone

   If Opti is stubborn and won't accept your argument why ruby is
how ruby is than that's a debate.
Surprise, surprise - someone somewhere on the internets is wrong -
you cannot convice everybody to accept your point of view (even if you
think you are right 10000% or such).

      And dare I say this ruby-talk mailing list is almost dead
anyways - now if you put myself and opti and Andy Maleh in your
killfile than enjoy the silence! Or better enjoy the automated post
of our ruby hero and last man standing with his gem announcements -
Ryan Davis.

  Don't get me wrong - for sure it's great to announce your gems but
every minuscule point release? - anyways, not complaing really - it's
a great heart beat to keep the mailing list alive. .

   Cheers. Prost.

5

I agree that lifetime bans can be childish and too Google-esque but they are efficient.

Maybe the Fibonacci suspension sequence for repeat offenders:

1 week
1 week
3 weeks
5 weeks
8 weeks
…
10th banned for life

Or possibly doubling on each offense:

1 week
2 weeks
4 weeks
8 weeks
…
7th banned for life

However this would be a lot of work for the mods. When would the suspension be triggered?

Maybe there is a ban warning like a strike in baseball. Three strikes and you are banned.

Just some thoughts to ponder.

Dan

6

  It's unfortunate that I have to write this and I have to even fear
to get banned for life or whatever here too.

  Anyways, due to a private email I got today about a ruby reddit ban
(twice! incl. the banned person humbly asking the mod - yes, Richard
Schneeman - for forgiveness - getting the classic answer:

> the reddit ruby mob doesn't like what you offer (hint: your gems are NOT about rails!)
> and, thus, humbly accept the mistreatment and bullying -
> your feelings don't matter and so on.

For what it's worth I also fear being permanently banned, not because
I insulted anybody, broke any rules, or spammed, simply because my
opinions are not popular.

The mods of r/reddit straight up said my anti-woke views "won't fly"
in the Ruby community or their subreddit. And as proof that I'm wrong
they used the popularity of my comments: "look at the amount of
downvotes your comments had and the amount of upvotes the top comments
had".

Since apparently basic notions of logic do have to be explained, using
popular belief as an argument is a fallacy called argumentum ad
populum [1]. The majority can be wrong, and there are countless
instances where that is precisely what happened, starting from the
famous case of Galileo Galilei versus everyone else. The banning of
Galileo's work and his imprisonment did nothing to change the truth.

1)
Anyways, the cheerleading here on ruby-talk by Ryan Davis and friends when
Opti / Die Optimisten got banned is worrying. I do not know Opti and his
style is not mine but getting "triggered" by saying it's a bug is ridiculous
and no cause for a ban.

I personally did not find any value in anything Die Optimisten said,
and I believe the decision to ban him was correct.

However, there are ways of doing this. Censorship should not be taken
lightly, and people should be given a chance to adjust their behavior.
Imagine if the government sent you straight to prison for a minor
infraction. Die Optimisten was never given a chance, he was not
warned.

This is a point that most people will not understand because they are
not empathic. They are unable to see injustice even when it happens in
front of their eyes.

People only see injustice when it happens to them.

    First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
        Because I was not a socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
        Because I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
        Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

[1] Appeal to Common Belief

···

On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 10:28 AM Gerald Bauer <gerald.bauer@gmail.com> wrote:

--
Felipe Contreras

7

This is not true. He was warned by multiple members of the community that
his frequent outbursts were disruptive. In every case, he called on the
moderators to ban the people who warned him on his disruption because they
were being unfriendly.

And, as I said, you don’t warn an adult who intentionally shits on your
living room carpet.

You kick them out of your house.

-a

···

On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 3:01 PM Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:

I personally did not find any value in anything Die Optimisten said,
and I believe the decision to ban him was correct.

However, there are ways of doing this. Censorship should not be taken
lightly, and people should be given a chance to adjust their behavior.
Imagine if the government sent you straight to prison for a minor
infraction. Die Optimisten was never given a chance, he was not
warned.

--
Austin Ziegler • halostatue@gmail.com • austin@halostatue.ca
http://www.halostatue.ca/ • http://twitter.com/halostatue

8

Hey Gerard and possibly Die Optimisten(just create a new e-mail :hugs:),

I personally like when you share your gems updates and Ruby things. I bet
many members of our community do as well. We need this!

Can you both please come back with a fresh head and not invoke such heated
discussions and debates anymore?

I'm pretty sure you both based on your contributions possess the
sensibility to avoid them.

There are plenty of other places where such discussions can happen with
people that are actually interested about it. People are here on this
mailint list because of Ruby.

Prost

···

Gerald Bauer <gerald.bauer@gmail.com> schrieb am Mi., 24. Aug. 2022, 17:28:

Hello,

  It's unfortunate that I have to write this and I have to even fear
to get banned for life or whatever here too.

  Anyways, due to a private email I got today about a ruby reddit ban
(twice! incl. the banned person humbly asking the mod - yes, Richard
Schneeman - for forgiveness - getting the classic answer:

> the reddit ruby mob doesn't like what you offer (hint: your gems are
NOT about rails!)
> and, thus, humbly accept the mistreatment and bullying -
> your feelings don't matter and so on.

1)
   Anyways, the cheerleading here on ruby-talk by Ryan Davis and friends
  when Opti / Die Optimisten got banned is worrying.
   I do not know Opti and his style is not mine
  but getting "triggered" by saying it's a bug is ridiculous and no
cause for a ban.

  Thus, may I humbly ask to start with the policy of no-bans right
here on ruby-talk
  and turn it into a two or three- week suspension for cool-off
and than let's welcome Opti / Die Optimisten back here.

2)

  But back to the mod (or is it the forum nazi?) - yes, Richard Schneeman
  enjoying and taking pleasure in kicking off rubyists from the reddit
  seemingly how he feels like.

   May I again offer an alternative - change the "policy" banning
posters willy-nilly for life and instead start with a no-ban policy.
  If the discussion gets heated or you get reports of harassment,
abuse, spam, etc. than use a two/three week suspension or such.

   For sure there is a case for obvious spammers to ban / kick-off but
  punishing and kicking off rubyists with years of contributions and
dozens of gem is ridiculous and needs to stop.

   Join us in the call for no-bans and making all welcome in
  the ruby community. What's your take?

  Cheers. Prost.

Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-talk-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=unsubscribe>
<http://lists.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/ruby-talk&gt;

9

Being warned by your neighbor is not the same as being warned by a judge.

Random members of the community have zero authority over who gets
banned, and therefore their warnings can be safely disregarded.

Warnings by an authority are the only ones that carry weight.

···

On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 4:15 PM Austin Ziegler <halostatue@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 3:01 PM Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:

I personally did not find any value in anything Die Optimisten said,
and I believe the decision to ban him was correct.

However, there are ways of doing this. Censorship should not be taken
lightly, and people should be given a chance to adjust their behavior.
Imagine if the government sent you straight to prison for a minor
infraction. Die Optimisten was never given a chance, he was not
warned.

This is not true. He was warned by multiple members of the community

--
Felipe Contreras

10

My full support to moderators.

11

I'm not against having another level between full access to this list and
the ban hammer, but I'm also not the moderator. Temporary bans or shadow
bans without tools to assist with their creation and removal may be an
undue burden to place on the moderators of this list.

-Jeremy

···

On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 4:56 PM Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:

Warnings by an authority are the only ones that carry weight.

12

It's their job. That's what the job of a moderator entails.

But how hard is it to create a text file with the list of emails that
have been warned before? The amount of time it takes to check if
somebody has been warned before (seconds) is minimal compared with the
pain of being permanently banned.

Maybe when you get permanently banned with no warning from a community
you care about, you will understand that the moderator spending a few
extra seconds considering such action is actually not a bad thing.

···

On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 5:08 PM Jeremy Bopp <jeremy@bopp.net> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 4:56 PM Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:

Warnings by an authority are the only ones that carry weight.

I'm not against having another level between full access to this list and the ban hammer, but I'm also not the moderator. Temporary bans or shadow bans without tools to assist with their creation and removal may be an undue burden to place on the moderators of this list.

--
Felipe Contreras

13

Weren't you calling for banning a slew of people back in March?

···

On August 24, 2022 11:27 AM Gerald Bauer wrote:
Join us in the call for no-bans and making all welcome in
the ruby community. What's your take?

--
J Lambert

14

I just banned gerald.bauer@gmail.com.

···

On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 7:21 AM <jlsysinc@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On August 24, 2022 11:27 AM Gerald Bauer wrote:
> Join us in the call for no-bans and making all welcome in
> the ruby community. What's your take?

Weren't you calling for banning a slew of people back in March?

--
J Lambert

Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-talk-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=unsubscribe>
<http://lists.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/ruby-talk&gt;

15

Please consider that the moderators of this list are almost certainly
volunteers. Some of us may see it as their responsibility to moderate in a
certain way, but I doubt any of us is in a position to demand it.

It would be nice to hear the thoughts of the moderators on this entire
discussion. Perhaps they already have the tools necessary to handle
temporary bans and just need encouragement to thoughtfully use them.

-Jeremy

···

On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 5:18 PM Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 5:08 PM Jeremy Bopp <jeremy@bopp.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 4:56 PM Felipe Contreras < > felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Warnings by an authority are the only ones that carry weight.
>
> I'm not against having another level between full access to this list
and the ban hammer, but I'm also not the moderator. Temporary bans or
shadow bans without tools to assist with their creation and removal may be
an undue burden to place on the moderators of this list.

It's their job. That's what the job of a moderator entails.

16

Most developers who contribute patches to open source projects are
volunteers too, do they get a pass if they submit substandard code?
No.

If it takes a year for a volunteer developer to address all the issues
with his/her code because he lacks free time, so be it. No code is
better than substandard code.

It's better to have no moderation than substandard (e.g. unjust)
moderation. I would rather have a few false negatives (people who
should be banned but aren't) rather than a single false positive (a
person unjustly banned). And you would too, if you ever get to be one
of the false positives.

···

On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 5:46 PM Jeremy Bopp <jeremy@bopp.net> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 5:18 PM Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 5:08 PM Jeremy Bopp <jeremy@bopp.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 4:56 PM Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Warnings by an authority are the only ones that carry weight.
>
> I'm not against having another level between full access to this list and the ban hammer, but I'm also not the moderator. Temporary bans or shadow bans without tools to assist with their creation and removal may be an undue burden to place on the moderators of this list.

It's their job. That's what the job of a moderator entails.

Please consider that the moderators of this list are almost certainly volunteers.

--
Felipe Contreras

17

THANK YOU

···

On Aug 24, 2022, at 15:33, SHIBATA Hiroshi <hsbt@ruby-lang.org> wrote:

I just banned gerald.bauer@gmail.com.

18

>> >>
>> >> Warnings by an authority are the only ones that carry weight.
>> >
>> > I'm not against having another level between full access to this list
and the ban hammer, but I'm also not the moderator. Temporary bans or
shadow bans without tools to assist with their creation and removal may be
an undue burden to place on the moderators of this list.
>>
>> It's their job. That's what the job of a moderator entails.
>
> Please consider that the moderators of this list are almost certainly
volunteers.

Most developers who contribute patches to open source projects are
volunteers too, do they get a pass if they submit substandard code?

Indeed they don't, but then they are attempting to contribute to someone
else's project. The project owners have every right to reject
contributions for any reason. People who disagree with those decisions are
encouraged to fork such projects and become owners of their forks, managing
them however they see fit.

We are not the owners of this list though. The moderators effectively
serve that function as the gatekeepers of who is and is not allowed to post
here. Nothing stops anyone from setting up a new list where moderation is
handled differently.

It's better to have no moderation than substandard (e.g. unjust)
moderation. I would rather have a few false negatives (people who
should be banned but aren't) rather than a single false positive (a
person unjustly banned). And you would too, if you ever get to be one
of the false positives.

Maybe there's a misunderstanding here. I'm only advocating that we
consider the plight of the moderators when suggesting more complex
moderation systems than what has been used on this list thus far. They are
not here to do our bidding. They are here to help shepherd a community.

-Jeremy

···

On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 6:08 PM Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 5:46 PM Jeremy Bopp <jeremy@bopp.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 5:18 PM Felipe Contreras < > felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 5:08 PM Jeremy Bopp <jeremy@bopp.net> wrote:
>> > On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 4:56 PM Felipe Contreras < > felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:

19

What about just ignoring the particular piece that some people may perceive
as offensive,
as we humans have figured out to do through cultural evolution over
millenia?

saji

···

On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 2:25 AM Dan Fitzpatrick <dan@eparklabs.com> wrote:

I agree that lifetime bans can be childish and too Google-esque but they
are efficient.

Maybe the Fibonacci suspension sequence for repeat offenders:

1 week
1 week
3 weeks
5 weeks
8 weeks
…
10th banned for life

Or possibly doubling on each offense:

1 week
2 weeks
4 weeks
8 weeks
…
7th banned for life

However this would be a lot of work for the mods. When would the
suspension be triggered?

Maybe there is a ban warning like a strike in baseball. Three strikes and
you are banned.

Just some thoughts to ponder.

Dan

Unsubscribe: <mailto:ruby-talk-request@ruby-lang.org?subject=unsubscribe>
<http://lists.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/ruby-talk&gt;

--

20

The fact that somebody has "the right" to do something doesn't mean it
is moral to do so. This is an obvious fallacy called appeal to the law
[1].

The fact that the moderators have the right to ban anybody for any
reason doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

But I'm not going to express my opinion on the subject anymore,
because clearly if a moderator doesn't like my opinion and bans me for
expressing that opinion, with zero warning, and zero recourse, the
community instead of realizing the injustice that just took place on a
minority, will cheer the decision. Clearly in the Ruby community only
the majority counts [2].

It should not take a genius to realize that if the arbiters of truth
can censor anybody for any reason, soon enough anybody who could
criticize them is already banned. Which is why freedom of speech
should be defended at all costs, even if you don't like the opinions
being expressed, and not doing that leads to very dark historical
paths.

To be clear: I am **not** criticizing the moderators, they are doing a
perfect job. Of course, if that's the only opinion I can express, that
should tell you more than enough.

[1] Appeal to the Law
[2] Tyranny of the majority - Wikipedia

···

On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 6:45 PM Jeremy Bopp <jeremy@bopp.net> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 6:08 PM Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 5:46 PM Jeremy Bopp <jeremy@bopp.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2022 at 5:18 PM Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:

>> It's their job. That's what the job of a moderator entails.
>
> Please consider that the moderators of this list are almost certainly volunteers.

Most developers who contribute patches to open source projects are
volunteers too, do they get a pass if they submit substandard code?

Indeed they don't, but then they are attempting to contribute to someone else's project. The project owners have every right to reject contributions for any reason. People who disagree with those decisions are encouraged to fork such projects and become owners of their forks, managing them however they see fit.

We are not the owners of this list though. The moderators effectively serve that function as the gatekeepers of who is and is not allowed to post here.

--
Felipe Contreras