@ Florian:
It seems we have a very different understanding of being a programmer.
Somebody who can do basic tasks within a team that looks after him is a
code monkey to me, not a programmer. Yeah, you can probably become a
decent code monkey in a few months. Many school kids today don't even
have to be taught the basics, because they've already published projects
on GitHub, maybe done some small jobs etc.
I never wrote that it makes you a fully-fledged programmer - but it can make
you fit for working in a company. Many companies pass by perfectly good
talent because of exactly that mindset.
Also, the differentiation between "code monkey" and "programmer" on skill
is maybe the most snobbish thing I heard in a while, if not actively harmful.
Granted: there is a difference between someone that just copy and pastes
code and someone that applies skills. But if you apply programming skills
in a creative way - how meager they may be, you are nevertheless a
programmer - just not a good one (yet).
But that doesn't make them programmers! There's a big difference
between, say, writing an SQL query that kind of works -- and being able
to understand an execution plan and write a query that won't break down
even if thousands of customers visit the page simulatenously. A
programmer to me is somebody who actually knows what he's doing and can
come up with workable solutions in a short amount of time. And that's
something you won't learn in a few weeks.
I've seen people with zero knowledge in either algebra and SQL doing query
optimization perfectly well _because they saw the need and learned what they
had to learn_. It took them long, but hey! Taking the right actions and learning
what you need for it is what makes a programmer, not your skill level.
And yes: I would never let such a person work alone, but with more experienced
supervision, you can see a lot of awesome things happening.
Of course you don't necessarily need formal education. But it does help
to come down to earth and get *real* knowledge and experience as opposed
to "Hey, I've read some PHP tutorials, I'm a web developer now!".
We're not talking about "some guy who read some tutorials after midnight",
but taking a course for a quarter of a year. (assuming that the course is good)
It's like with any other serious job: I'm sure there are many great
self-taught architects out there. But when you hire one, you *probably*
want him to have an actual diploma and not just a certificate from
"Learn statics in only 1 week!".
Now you are mingeling topics: I agree with you that a course certificate
does not give you any more credibility in the hiring process. I just don't
agree with the premise that such a course can only yield unusable
personnel. Even self-teching yields perfectly good people from time to time,
so how can a good
I'm not saying that those Flatiron courses are useless. I don't know
them. But I think they give a a very wrong impression of what you can do
with your knowledge. What kind of jobs will that be when all you need is
a few weeks of training?
As I said: basic jobs with an opportunity to improve. Lets face it: Many companies
are searching for people to make even the most miniscule tasks. At worst, they
allow very basic tasks to be done by expensive
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On Dec 16, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Jan E. <lists@ruby-forum.com> wrote:
