Looking for some feedback about Certification

ruby-talk
1

Aaah, nothing like a good controversial topic to stir up a holy war
for the weekend.

I've posted two different requests for feedback on a project over at my blog:


They boil down to this: I've been asked to help a university put together a
continuing education program to teach Ruby. It will be a three course
series and will end with a Ruby Certification for the students completing
it. I'd like to collect your opinions about two things:
  1) Is Ruby ready for/in need of a certification program?
  2) What should be in a program like this?

I'd like to collect the feedback in blog comments (easier to refer
to them, etc.), but I realize that just bringing it up here is liable to
cause a mailstrom of emails, news posts, etc. -- please, at least
try to keep it civil if you're going to reply here (for whatever value
of here is appropriate for the way you consume ruby-talk)

I'll now slink away and hide in the corner for a bit.

···

--
thanks,
-pate
-------------------------

2

pat eyler wrote:

Aaah, nothing like a good controversial topic to stir up a holy war
for the weekend.

I've posted two different requests for feedback on a project over at
my blog:

On Ruby: Ruby Certification: Is It Worth It?

On Ruby: Ruby Certification: What should it cover?

They boil down to this: I've been asked to help a university put
together a
continuing education program to teach Ruby. It will be a three course
series and will end with a Ruby Certification for the students completing
it. I'd like to collect your opinions about two things:
1) Is Ruby ready for/in need of a certification program?
2) What should be in a program like this?

I'd like to collect the feedback in blog comments (easier to refer
to them, etc.), but I realize that just bringing it up here is liable to
cause a mailstrom of emails, news posts, etc. -- please, at least
try to keep it civil if you're going to reply here (for whatever value
of here is appropriate for the way you consume ruby-talk)

I'll now slink away and hide in the corner for a bit.

lol

First of all, I'm in no means a ruby expert!

1) I think it's probably a good idea. I can only imagine that having
something legitimate-looking that tells prospective employers that
you've gone through the trouble of learning a non-mainstream (compared
to Java) language like Ruby will impress them and increase your chances
of getting a job? I'm still in high school though, so others will have
more experience with this kind of thing.

2) I'd imagine that someone who wants to write something like 'certified
rubyist' behind his name should at the very least be able to comprehend
and implement the ruby basics as covered in eg. Chris Pine's Learning to
Program and Why's Guide (comprehend the non-fictional parts anyway).

Just my 2c worth.

Cheery-o
Gustav Paul
gustav@rails.co.za

3

pat eyler wrote:

/ ... snipping all but the meat ...

I'd like to collect the feedback in blog comments (easier to refer
to them, etc.), but I realize that just bringing it up here is liable to
cause a mailstrom ...

Wow! And I was there when it happened! A totally new word, and a rather nice
one. "Mailstrom." Too bad you can't patent words, you might become rich.

I am not going to ask whether this arose form a typo, or represents a
misspelling of "maelstrom", or some third possibility. It doesn't really
matter. I was present at a birth. :slight_smile:

I'll now slink away and hide in the corner for a bit.

Actually, you should gloat. You may not realize what you've done. Not
everyone gets to coin a new word.

(long pause) ... rats. I see from a Google search that it isn't original.
It's not common, but it's not original.

Oh well.

···

--
Paul Lutus
http://www.arachnoid.com

4

Hi --

···

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006, pat eyler wrote:

Aaah, nothing like a good controversial topic to stir up a holy war
for the weekend.

I've posted two different requests for feedback on a project over at my blog:

On Ruby: Ruby Certification: Is It Worth It?
On Ruby: Ruby Certification: What should it cover?

They boil down to this: I've been asked to help a university put
together a
continuing education program to teach Ruby. It will be a three course
series and will end with a Ruby Certification for the students completing
it. I'd like to collect your opinions about two things:
1) Is Ruby ready for/in need of a certification program?
2) What should be in a program like this?

I'd like to collect the feedback in blog comments (easier to refer
to them, etc.), but I realize that just bringing it up here is liable to
cause a mailstrom of emails, news posts, etc. -- please, at least
try to keep it civil if you're going to reply here (for whatever value
of here is appropriate for the way you consume ruby-talk)

I think it's fine for the institution to offer a certificate in Ruby
programming, but I don't think it has any implications for Ruby per
se. In other words, I would not call people who take the course
certified Rubyists, but rather holders of a certificate in Ruby from
such-and-such an institution.

David

--
                   David A. Black | dblack@rubypal.com
Author of "Ruby for Rails" [1] | Ruby/Rails training & consultancy [3]
DABlog (DAB's Weblog) [2] | Co-director, Ruby Central, Inc. [4]
[1] Ruby for Rails | [3] http://www.rubypowerandlight.com
[2] http://dablog.rubypal.com | [4] http://www.rubycentral.org

5

pat eyler wrote:

Aaah, nothing like a good controversial topic to stir up a holy war
for the weekend.

I've posted two different requests for feedback on a project over at my blog:

On Ruby: Ruby Certification: Is It Worth It?

On Ruby: Ruby Certification: What should it cover?

They boil down to this: I've been asked to help a university put together a
continuing education program to teach Ruby. It will be a three course
series and will end with a Ruby Certification for the students completing
it. I'd like to collect your opinions about two things:
1) Is Ruby ready for/in need of a certification program?
2) What should be in a program like this?

I'd like to collect the feedback in blog comments (easier to refer
to them, etc.), but I realize that just bringing it up here is liable to
cause a mailstrom of emails, news posts, etc. -- please, at least
try to keep it civil if you're going to reply here (for whatever value
of here is appropriate for the way you consume ruby-talk)

I'll now slink away and hide in the corner for a bit.

OK ... here goes:

1. Microsoft certifications, Cisco certifications and Red Hat certifications should be the model. One of these says you are *competent* to perform certain tasks. I refuse to listen to whining from people who *don't* have them about how meaningless they are. Were I hiring people who required these skills, I would clearly state in the job posting that applications/resumes from uncertified people would not be considered. That's legal and fair.

2. If I were hiring a *programmer*, I would look for an applicable college degree from an accredited institution, not a certificate based on a pass/fail set of courses. Again, if a degree is required, there's no point in the weasel words "or equivalent experience". That's legal and that's fair. With hundreds of applicants for a single position, employers can afford to be picky.

If there were a "Ruby vendor" I might answer differently. But there is no Microsoft, Cisco or Red Hat for Ruby -- there isn't even a Sun/Java-like standard. Ruby is a language built and used by a community, not a corporation.

Now there *are* fine people -- on this list -- who run excellent Ruby and Rails programming courses. If some university wants to attempt to compete with them, fine, but if I were hiring Ruby or Rails programmers, I'd hire competent programmers with the right attitudes and a background in the application domain and send them off to the fine Ruby/Rails training that already exists.

6

It will be a three course
series and will end with a Ruby Certification for the students completing

I would certainly hire any student who can become an expert after three
programming classes.
In my experience it takes closer to three years of actual working to
reach that level (and then
only for a few).

Are you to cover GUI programming as well? And Rails? My goodness
these students will
certainly earn their certificates!

Bill

7

pat eyler wrote:
> 1) Is Ruby ready for/in need of a certification program?

With the growing size of the Ruby community (and demand for Ruby
programmers) there will undoubtedly be programs of this sort. Of
course having said that, I personally consider certifications programs
(especially for programming languages) one of the worst hiring metrics
available. If you want to find a good programmer, looking for a
language specific certificate is a terrible mistake.

> 2) What should be in a program like this?

A few questions first:

1. Intended audience (experienced programmers, web designers, career
switching accountants)?

2. With or without Rails (is this web focused or general Ruby)?

3. You mentioned 3 courses, how long is each course?

pth

···

On 11/10/06, Gustav Paul <gustav@rails.co.za> wrote:

8

1) I think it's probably a good idea. I can only imagine that having
something legitimate-looking that tells prospective employers that
you've gone through the trouble of learning a non-mainstream (compared
to Java) language like Ruby will impress them and increase your chances
of getting a job?

I have a hard time believing that someone who appreciates Ruby will want a job where a such a certificate is impressive.

2) I'd imagine that someone who wants to write something like 'certified
rubyist' behind his name should at the very least be able to comprehend
and implement the ruby basics as covered in eg. Chris Pine's Learning to
Program and Why's Guide (comprehend the non-fictional parts anyway).

Someone who wants to write something like "Certified Rubyist" behind his or her name should not be coding in Ruby. Probably should not be coding at all.

···

--
James Britt

http://web2.0validator.com - We're the Dot in Web 2.0
http://www.rubyaz.org - Hacking in the Desert
http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys

9

Certification isn't particularly useful in terms of finding a job. I
got a couple certifications at one point, they were utterly useless as
far as finding work. However, they were very useful in the sense of
learning the technologies in pretty extensive detail. If the exam
covers a lot of ground and costs a lot of money, your best option is
to learn the material thoroughly before you take it.

However, I've actually considered taking my certifications **off** my
resume because I don't want the best type of employer thinking, "Oh,
he's **that** kind of programmer." I've also grown very skeptical of
the technologies I got certified in. There are some certification
exams which put a spotlight on the design flaws in their subject
matter.

That being said, I had a look at your blog entries, and if I
understand correctly, the system is three courses, each one pass/fail,
with a certificate awarded at the end, and the question is what
material to cover. So, I'd say currying, continuations, and compiler
internals. The three Cs. Extra credit if you can explain why Stefan
Kaes used abstract syntax trees to optimize Rails performance.

(Just kidding.)

···

--
Giles Bowkett
http://www.gilesgoatboy.org

10

dblack@wobblini.net wrote:

I think it's fine for the institution to offer a certificate in Ruby
programming, but I don't think it has any implications for Ruby per
se. In other words, I would not call people who take the course
certified Rubyists, but rather holders of a certificate in Ruby from
such-and-such an institution.

Jamis' comment on Pat's blog, though, hit the nail on the head in pointing out that anything called a "certificate" will carry linguistic and work-culture baggage.

I really like the idea of a school offering a formal path of Ruby study, and I suppose that, at the end, you would get something that indicates success or failure by the standards of the course. You know, a certificate.

Overall, there are worse problems to have than people abusing the notion of Ruby certification. You'd think more people had seen The Wizard of Oz, though.

···

--
James Britt

11

*sigh*, as is far too often the case, I did a really bad job of
explaining what I really meant, and someone else swooped in
with what I really should have said. Thanks David.

Hi --

[my poor description snipped]

I think it's fine for the institution to offer a certificate in Ruby
programming, but I don't think it has any implications for Ruby per
se. In other words, I would not call people who take the course
certified Rubyists, but rather holders of a certificate in Ruby from
such-and-such an institution.

This is exactly what I was trying to get at, not some kind of
Novell/Cisco/A+ kind of thing.

···

On 11/10/06, dblack@wobblini.net <dblack@wobblini.net> wrote:

David

--
                   David A. Black | dblack@rubypal.com
Author of "Ruby for Rails" [1] | Ruby/Rails training & consultancy [3]
DABlog (DAB's Weblog) [2] | Co-director, Ruby Central, Inc. [4]
[1] Ruby for Rails | [3] http://www.rubypowerandlight.com
[2] http://dablog.rubypal.com | [4] http://www.rubycentral.org

--
thanks,
-pate
-------------------------

12

1. Microsoft certifications, Cisco certifications and Red Hat certifications should be the model. One of these says you are *competent* to perform certain tasks. I refuse to listen to whining from people who *don't* have them about how meaningless they are. Were I hiring people who required these skills, I would clearly state in the job posting that applications/resumes from uncertified people would not be considered. That's legal and fair.

I have several IBM certifications on AIX and related products. Given the complexity of some of the products, I think it's not an unreasonable thing to ask for. The certifications aren't a gaurantee, but it is something I can point to, particularly when talking to recruiters. I want to get Red Hat certifications, but they're expensive enough that I haven't wanted to spend the money out of my own pocket.

2. If I were hiring a *programmer*, I would look for an applicable college degree from an accredited institution, not a certificate based on a pass/fail set of courses. Again, if a degree is required, there's no point in the weasel words "or equivalent experience". That's legal and that's fair. With hundreds of applicants for a single position, employers can afford to be picky.

I'm not so sure about that. Computer Science degrees often don't teach software development and are sometimes intended to just be a stepping stone to advanced degrees. And they really don't teach the things that are covered in "Ship It!" from the Pragmatic Programmers.

Hiring a programmer without at least a simple coding test is probably a really bad idea.

If there were a "Ruby vendor" I might answer differently. But there is no Microsoft, Cisco or Red Hat for Ruby -- there isn't even a Sun/Java-like standard. Ruby is a language built and used by a community, not a corporation.

Now there *are* fine people -- on this list -- who run excellent Ruby and Rails programming courses. If some university wants to attempt to compete with them, fine, but if I were hiring Ruby or Rails programmers, I'd hire competent programmers with the right attitudes and a background in the application domain and send them off to the fine Ruby/Rails training that already exists.

Knowing about and beleiving in things like source code control, automated build environments and, most importantly, peer review are probably the top things I would look for.

-- Matt
It's not what I know that counts. It's what I can remember in time to use.

···

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

13

Wow, it's a good thing I don't hire people. I would make pretty much opposite choices.

This is the one thing Joel Spolsky and I are in total agreement on. He says you need two things in an employee:

1. Passion
2. Gets Things Done

James Edward Gray II

···

On Nov 10, 2006, at 9:46 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

1. Microsoft certifications, Cisco certifications and Red Hat certifications should be the model. One of these says you are *competent* to perform certain tasks.

2. If I were hiring a *programmer*, I would look for an applicable college degree from an accredited institution, not a certificate based on a pass/fail set of courses.

14

Hi --

It will be a three course
series and will end with a Ruby Certification for the students completing

I would certainly hire any student who can become an expert after three
programming classes.
In my experience it takes closer to three years of actual working to
reach that level (and then
only for a few).

Are you to cover GUI programming as well? And Rails? My
goodness these students will certainly earn their certificates!

I don't think the idea is to treat three courses as a drop-in
replacement for three years of job experience. It sounds, rather,
like the idea is for people to take three courses, and then to be
given a certificate stating that they have done so. How that plays
out in the context of employment will of course depend on what level
someone's employing at, how the interviews go, and so forth.

David

···

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006, WoodHacker wrote:

--
                   David A. Black | dblack@rubypal.com
Author of "Ruby for Rails" [1] | Ruby/Rails training & consultancy [3]
DABlog (DAB's Weblog) [2] | Co-director, Ruby Central, Inc. [4]
[1] Ruby for Rails | [3] http://www.rubypowerandlight.com
[2] http://dablog.rubypal.com | [4] http://www.rubycentral.org

15

Patrick Hurley wrote:

pat eyler wrote:
> 1) Is Ruby ready for/in need of a certification program?

With the growing size of the Ruby community (and demand for Ruby
programmers) there will undoubtedly be programs of this sort. Of
course having said that, I personally consider certifications programs
(especially for programming languages) one of the worst hiring metrics
available. If you want to find a good programmer, looking for a
language specific certificate is a terrible mistake.

What about assigning each student to make contributions to ruby and to the community, so that they have something concrete and visible to point to? For example:

- write std lib docs

- write tests for std libs

- write a brief article or blog entry, with newbies in mind as the readers

- contact a project maintainer (on rubyforge for example) and ask for a suitable task (not SoC level, but not trivial, either)

···

On 11/10/06, Gustav Paul <gustav@rails.co.za> wrote:

--
       vjoel : Joel VanderWerf : path berkeley edu : 510 665 3407

16

>
> I think it's fine for the institution to offer a certificate in Ruby
> programming, but I don't think it has any implications for Ruby per
> se. In other words, I would not call people who take the course
> certified Rubyists, but rather holders of a certificate in Ruby from
> such-and-such an institution.

Jamis' comment on Pat's blog, though, hit the nail on the head in
pointing out that anything called a "certificate" will carry linguistic
and work-culture baggage.

Except that a certificate is also a well-known and frequently used
term that's used as David uses it above:

http://flightline.highline.edu/cg/network.html#unix

for example

···

On 11/10/06, James Britt <james.britt@gmail.com> wrote:

dblack@wobblini.net wrote:

I really like the idea of a school offering a formal path of Ruby study,
and I suppose that, at the end, you would get something that indicates
success or failure by the standards of the course. You know, a certificate.

Overall, there are worse problems to have than people abusing the notion
of Ruby certification. You'd think more people had seen The Wizard of
Oz, though.

--
James Britt

--
thanks,
-pate
-------------------------

17

Hi --

I think it's fine for the institution to offer a certificate in Ruby
programming, but I don't think it has any implications for Ruby per
se. In other words, I would not call people who take the course
certified Rubyists, but rather holders of a certificate in Ruby from
such-and-such an institution.

Jamis' comment on Pat's blog, though, hit the nail on the head in pointing out that anything called a "certificate" will carry linguistic and work-culture baggage.

I guess I'm coming at it from having been involved for many years in
an academic department that packaged groups of courses into
certificates -- so, for example, if you took a certain sequence, you
would have earned the Computer Graphics certificate. This was partly
done because we were a big umbrella department (Communication) and it
was hard to tell what someone had actually studied when they were a
Communication major.

I really like the idea of a school offering a formal path of Ruby study, and I suppose that, at the end, you would get something that indicates success or failure by the standards of the course. You know, a certificate.

Overall, there are worse problems to have than people abusing the notion of Ruby certification. You'd think more people had seen The Wizard of Oz, though.

It does seem too bad to have the baggage associated with one word
stand in the way of what might be a beneficial and effective learning
experience.

David

···

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006, James Britt wrote:

dblack@wobblini.net wrote:

--
                   David A. Black | dblack@rubypal.com
Author of "Ruby for Rails" [1] | Ruby/Rails training & consultancy [3]
DABlog (DAB's Weblog) [2] | Co-director, Ruby Central, Inc. [4]
[1] Ruby for Rails | [3] http://www.rubypowerandlight.com
[2] http://dablog.rubypal.com | [4] http://www.rubycentral.org

18

James Britt wrote:

Jamis' comment on Pat's blog, though, hit the nail on the head in pointing out that anything called a "certificate" will carry linguistic and work-culture baggage.

And in some corporate cultures, certification is a political necessity. By the way, while we're on the subject of certifications and corporate cultures, am I the only one who thinks someone who has an "ABD" -- All But Dissertation" PhD is really only a Master of Science?

<ducking>

I really like the idea of a school offering a formal path of Ruby study, and I suppose that, at the end, you would get something that indicates success or failure by the standards of the course. You know, a certificate.

Overall, there are worse problems to have than people abusing the notion of Ruby certification. You'd think more people had seen The Wizard of Oz, though.

Well, as Pat and I have both pointed out, there's a tremendous difference between the Cowardly Lion's medal and an RHCE. I know this from experience; I've flunked the RHCE exam twice now! :slight_smile:

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, AB, MS, FBG, MNLP, NST, ACMC (provisional) and PTA

19

Wow, I don't think my Java certification taught me Java at all. Other people seem to put a lot more weight in my piece of paper than I do.

James Edward Gray II

···

On Nov 10, 2006, at 8:34 PM, Giles Bowkett wrote:

However, they were very useful in the sense of
learning the technologies in pretty extensive detail.

20

Amen!

James Edward Gray II

···

On Nov 10, 2006, at 10:06 PM, Matt Lawrence wrote:

Hiring a programmer without at least a simple coding test is probably a really bad idea.