Ruby Certification

[Nathaniel_Brown2 (Nathaniel Brown)]

Taken from a JavaUG here in Vancouver written by Lydon Tiu:

1) Forces you to learn things you otherwise won't.

2) Allows you to put those important "keywords" on your resume
   which gets you past HR and hence at the very least gets you that first

interview.

3) Icing on the cake - if you have the experience(the cake) plus the

certification,

   then you'd be better tasting to a potential employer.

4) Marketing value - companies could use your certification on their

corporate profile,

   RFP submissions, bid submissions to list the qualifications of their

employees.

Moreover, having the certification definitely helps gain the confidence
saying you know the language. As salesmen can attest to, having the
confidence is what gets the product sold, and during an interview you are
definitely the product.

The most important thing about having certification is that it comes from a
reputable source. Certifications coming from Ruby-lang.org, or
RubyOnRails.com are far more credible than a shop in London which nobody has
heard of. If you don't "trust" the issuer, then the certification's value
doesn't extend farther than what you personally learned from studying for
the test / course.

I am personally pro-certification. Although I have no certifications in my
bag at the moment, it does not preclude my hiring practices from
recognizing, and trusting an applicant when they say they are ZDE (Zend
Certified Engineer). I may not ask for their certification, but I still may
understand that and question them based on that during the interviewing
process.

Warmest regards,
Nathan.

···

--------------------------------------------------------------
Nathaniel S. H. Brown Toll Free 1.877.4.INIMIT
Inimit Innovations Phone 604.724.6624
www.inimit.com Fax 604.444.9942

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Arnold [mailto:stevena@neosynapse.net]
Sent: November 3, 2005 9:37 AM
To: ruby-talk ML
Subject: Re: Ruby Certification

On Nov 3, 2005, at 12:22 PM, gregarican wrote:

> Someone who takes collegiate courses and earns a degree in computer
> programming should be judged based on such qualifications.
Someone who
> hasn't earned a degree in such a field could be judged on
sample code
> from their projects they have contributed to. If the sample code is
> owned by a former employer then some other self-maintained
portfolio
> could be presented.

I've found it very valuable to give interviewees small programming
problems right there in the interview. For example, write a function
that prints all possible permutations of a string, or that translates
a string into Pig Latin, etc. It really can quickly distinguish the
great programmers from the good programmers from the pretenders. I
like to give the interviewee a laptop with the programming language
installed, and ideally they will quickly produce a working program.
Second best is slowly produce a working program. If they're not good
enough to write something that works, they are probably not good
enough for my purposes. Extra points for style, innovative approaches
and especially efficient algorithms.

If the candidate can't actually write software, they're no good. So
you might as well establish that right up front.

steve

[James_Britt4 (James Britt)]

Nathaniel S. H. Brown wrote:

Taken from a JavaUG here in Vancouver written by Lydon Tiu:

1) Forces you to learn things you otherwise won't.

Pretty much any test I took involved learning things I found interesting, and memorizing the rest just long enough to pass the exam. Test do not motivate me to learn.

2) Allows you to put those important "keywords" on your resume which gets you past HR and hence at the very least gets you that first

interview.

Interesting. I prefer to avoid companies that have an HR department, but not everyone can or wants to do that.

3) Icing on the cake - if you have the experience(the cake) plus the

certification,

  then you'd be better tasting to a potential employer.

Ah, yes. Nothing says "Eat me!" like certification.

4) Marketing value - companies could use your certification on their

corporate profile,

  RFP submissions, bid submissions to list the qualifications of their

employees.

I've seen this at some contracting places I've been. I suppose it helps win over clueless customers. Again, the value of this to any Rubyist may depend on if they actually want to, or must, work someplace that uses this sort of sales technique.

I fully expect that sales and marketing will become an increasing part of the Ruby world, but I'm not thrilled about all of it.

Moreover, having the certification definitely helps gain the confidence
saying you know the language. As salesmen can attest to, having the
confidence is what gets the product sold, and during an interview you are
definitely the product.

Unit-test green bars give confidence. Download stats from rubyforge.org give confidence. Page hits on one's Web site give confidence. Praise for your Ruby articles, whether in mainstream mags or simply on your own Web site, give confidence. Posting to ruby-talk gives confidence. Speaking at a RubyConf gives confidence.

If you need a certificate for your confidence, then please choose Perl or Java or C#.

James

···

--

http://www.ruby-doc.org - The Ruby Documentation Site
http://www.rubyxml.com - News, Articles, and Listings for Ruby & XML
http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys

[Kevin_Bedell]

Contributing to an open source project is much better credential than getting a
certification -- especially for Ruby.

btw - I have MCSE and Sun/Java certifications. But I don't think that ever help
me get a job and I don't think I'd ever get another. I will agree that I
learned things pursuing the certification that I would've never learned
otherwise (IP subnetting comes to mind...).

I think being a contributor on an open source project is a better credential and
takes about the same effort to accomplish.

Working on an open source project:

1) Allows you to learn from the best programmers around.
2) Gives you exposure to defect tracking, source code management, etc.
3) Demonstrates you've earned the respect of your peers in a technical
environment.
4) Proves you can work well as part of a team.
5) Provides you a great network of professional developers to help you land a
job.

Certifications don't prove you can work as part of a team and that others will
respect your work. Being a committer on a popular Ruby project does.

> 2) Allows you to put those important "keywords" on your resume
> which gets you past HR and hence at the very least gets you that first
interview.

Any company which uses Ruby as its primary development language probably has a
culture that respects open source committers more than people with buzzwords
and certifications.

> 3) Icing on the cake - if you have the experience(the cake) plus the
certification,
> then you'd be better tasting to a potential employer.

Being a committer is sweeter icing.

> 4) Marketing value - companies could use your certification on their
corporate profile,
> RFP submissions, bid submissions to list the qualifications of their
employees.

Top committers on open source projects are better marketing. HP, IBM and others
now issue press releases when they hire top open source developers -- it shows
they are 'giving back' to the open source community. I've never seen them issue
a press release when they hire a certified developer. Martin Fink of HP brags
that one of his direct reports is Bdale Graby -- a recognized Debian guy. HP
also hired most of the Samba developers.

Moreover, having the certification definitely helps gain the confidence
saying you know the language. As salesmen can attest to, having the
confidence is what gets the product sold, and during an interview you are
definitely the product.

This is an area where being an open source committer wins hands down. Once you
win the respect of the other committers on your project, your confidence will
be much higher than if you pass a certification test.

-kevin

Kevin Bedell
http://www.kbedell.com

"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
- Albert Einstein

[Nathaniel_Brown2 (Nathaniel Brown)]

Nathaniel S. H. Brown wrote:
> Taken from a JavaUG here in Vancouver written by Lydon Tiu:
>
>
>>1) Forces you to learn things you otherwise won't.

Pretty much any test I took involved learning things I found
interesting, and memorizing the rest just long enough to pass
the exam.
  Test do not motivate me to learn.

I imagine quite a few people ride in this boat. Personally, if I am going to
spend the time on anything - it better be worth it. Not just what I find
interesting, if I don't find it interesting, it's due in large part in lack
of trying to appreciate what I am trying to understand.

>
>
>>2) Allows you to put those important "keywords" on your resume
>> which gets you past HR and hence at the very least gets you that
>>first
>
> interview.

Interesting. I prefer to avoid companies that have an HR
department, but not everyone can or wants to do that.

Whether it's the CEO or the Director of IT, someone of influence within that
organization will be reviewing your resume when it comes down to it.
Ensuring that you have the keywords inherant in the langugage strengthens
your reputation. From the perspective of the hiring agent, whoever that may
be, they likely don't know you deeper than what you put on your resume. So
whatever you can do to strengthen that trust, and give them a better
impression, can only benefit your interview, if not their final decicion
whether or not to hire you.

>
>
>>4) Marketing value - companies could use your certification on their
>
> corporate profile,
>
>> RFP submissions, bid submissions to list the qualifications of
>> their
>
> employees.

I've seen this at some contracting places I've been. I suppose it
helps win over clueless customers. Again, the value of this
to any Rubyist may depend on if they actually want to, or
must, work someplace that uses this sort of sales technique.

I fully expect that sales and marketing will become an
increasing part of the Ruby world, but I'm not thrilled about
all of it.

Sales and marketing of your skills has always been apart of the interview
process. It's until recent that developers have only started to realize
this, and look for different options when negotiating their salary rather
than just accepting what they are given.

>
> Moreover, having the certification definitely helps gain the
> confidence saying you know the language. As salesmen can attest to,
> having the confidence is what gets the product sold, and during an
> interview you are definitely the product.

Unit-test green bars give confidence. Download stats from
rubyforge.org
give confidence. Page hits on one's Web site give
confidence. Praise
for your Ruby articles, whether in mainstream mags or simply
on your own Web site, give confidence. Posting to ruby-talk
gives confidence.
Speaking at a RubyConf gives confidence.

If you need a certificate for your confidence, then please
choose Perl or Java or C#.

James, not to deflate what seems to be a rather large ego, but not all of us
are as core in Ruby community as you are clearly announcing. Others need
stepping stones to ensure that all the bases are covered when it comes to
programming the language. Having a certification from a reputable issuer,
ensures that all the fundamentals, and hopefully some of the advanced
concepts are covered. If you are new to the langauge, as most are, the
inherant credibility of a certification would ensure that all topics are
covered and would hopefully give one with the certification an appreciation
that indeed, they are able to confidently tackle a Ruby project from all
angles with the best practices in mind, security and otherwise.

If you had never programmed before, where would you start? Likely being self
taught you would start sifting through google, maybe checkout the ruby
mailing lists and put together your own amalgamation of what "The Ruby Way"
is. A school, if credible, would only certify that you know the way.

- Nathan

···

--------------------------------------------------------------
Nathaniel S. H. Brown Toll Free 1.877.4.INIMIT
Inimit Innovations Phone 604.724.6624
www.inimit.com Fax 604.444.9942

[Ryan_Leavengood]

James, not to deflate what seems to be a rather large ego, but not all of us
are as core in Ruby community as you are clearly announcing.

Um, excuse me, you are certainly not going to ingratiate yourself to
those of us in the "core Ruby community" by needlessly insulting
someone who has made a lot of valuable contributions to the Ruby
world, simply because he has an opinion contrary to yours.

Plus the beauty of the Ruby community is that it doesn't take too much
to become a real star. David Heinemeier Hansson pretty much came out
of nowhere a year ago and is now an extremely well known name in the
Ruby world, all because of Rails and how he used the power of Ruby to
create it.

Others need
stepping stones to ensure that all the bases are covered when it comes to
programming the language. Having a certification from a reputable issuer,
ensures that all the fundamentals, and hopefully some of the advanced
concepts are covered. If you are new to the langauge, as most are, the
inherant credibility of a certification would ensure that all topics are
covered and would hopefully give one with the certification an appreciation
that indeed, they are able to confidently tackle a Ruby project from all
angles with the best practices in mind, security and otherwise.

I agree with the others that certifications have little value, and
that all (and more) of what you are suggesting above could be gotten
by contributing to an open souce project. The only problem is that
would take more time than some silly certification course, and I guess
therein lies the problem...lazy people wants results fast so they can
jump on the bandwagon with little effort. Sorry but no self-respecting
Ruby shop is going to get on that boat.

If you had never programmed before, where would you start? Likely being self
taught you would start sifting through google, maybe checkout the ruby
mailing lists and put together your own amalgamation of what "The Ruby Way"
is. A school, if credible, would only certify that you know the way.

I strongly disagree. I've got a simple paraphrase that explains how
most Ruby programmers would judge another: "Show me the code!!!"

Ryan

···

On 11/3/05, Nathaniel S. H. Brown <nshb@inimit.com> wrote:

[James_Britt4 (James Britt)]

Nathaniel S. H. Brown wrote:

James Britt wrote:

Interesting. I prefer to avoid companies that have an HR department, but not everyone can or wants to do that.

Whether it's the CEO or the Director of IT, someone of influence within that
organization will be reviewing your resume when it comes down to it.
Ensuring that you have the keywords inherant in the langugage strengthens
your reputation.

Well, that's the argument though, isn't it? Some may believe the 'Certified Ruby Engineer' might actually mean something, and is a strong indicator of skills. Others may put more weight on seeing "I maintain the following libraries on RubyForge ...", or "Site administrator for somerubysite.com."

For someone new to Ruby, taking a Ruby course is probably a more practical option, but the value of such a course is in getting the person on the way to starting that Ruby site or RubyForge project, not in having some piece of paper or resume bullet point.

From the perspective of the hiring agent, whoever that may
be, they likely don't know you deeper than what you put on your resume. So
whatever you can do to strengthen that trust, and give them a better
impression, can only benefit your interview, if not their final decicion
whether or not to hire you.

Google can say more than a certificate in that regard.

I fully expect that sales and marketing will become an increasing part of the Ruby world, but I'm not thrilled about all of it.

Sales and marketing of your skills has always been apart of the interview
process. It's until recent that developers have only started to realize
this, and look for different options when negotiating their salary rather
than just accepting what they are given.

Many developers have long known the need for self-promotion and presentation skills. That's neither new nor surprising. It's the sales and marketing of Ruby itself that can get depressing.

Moreover, having the certification definitely helps gain the confidence saying you know the language. As salesmen can attest to, having the confidence is what gets the product sold, and during an interview you are definitely the product.

Unit-test green bars give confidence. Download stats from rubyforge.org give confidence. Page hits on one's Web site give confidence. Praise for your Ruby articles, whether in mainstream mags or simply on your own Web site, give confidence. Posting to ruby-talk gives confidence. Speaking at a RubyConf gives confidence.

If you need a certificate for your confidence, then please choose Perl or Java or C#.

James, not to deflate what seems to be a rather large ego, but not all of us
are as core in Ruby community as you are clearly announcing.

Actually, even without a certificate, anyone can write about Ruby, put up a Ruby presentation, start a Ruby site, post to ruby-talk, start a project on rubyforge.org. The people who are core to the Ruby community, whoever they may be, are so because they took an interest and had the time and inclination to get involved. And the barriers to entry are probably lower than the costs of the typical programming or CompSci certificate course.

I believe the better employers are more impressed with self-direction, motivation, and initiative than with any certificate.

A training course may help people get started with Ruby, but on its own makes a weak indicator of skill.

> If you are new to the langauge, as most are, the

inherant credibility of a certification would ensure that all topics are
covered and would hopefully give one with the certification an appreciation
that indeed, they are able to confidently tackle a Ruby project from all
angles with the best practices in mind, security and otherwise.

If you had never programmed before, where would you start? Likely being self
taught you would start sifting through google, maybe checkout the ruby
mailing lists and put together your own amalgamation of what "The Ruby Way"
is. A school, if credible, would only certify that you know the way.

I disagree with that conclusion.

James

···

--

http://www.ruby-doc.org - The Ruby Documentation Site
http://www.rubyxml.com - News, Articles, and Listings for Ruby & XML
http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys

[Greg_Brown1 (Greg Brown)]

Of the school. Or who ever accredits the school.

The best source of ruby information (IMHO), is this list.

It offers open peer review of any solid resources (such as libraries,
tutorials, services, technologies, etc) and places it in the hands of
those that seek it the freedom to make their own conclusions.

I would not have known about RubyForge, RubyCentral, RubyGarden,
ruby-doc, etc, if not for this list. Maybe google would lead me to
some of them, but there is little confidence that those matches will
be what's best. You can't google if you don't know what to google
for. That's where a community mailing list like this comes in.

If I were hiring someone, I'd check the list first. James Britt
mentioned this before, but by looking at the kind of questions a
programmer asks, and the kind of answers they provide to others, you
can get an idea of what they'll be like in a work environment.

Also, I agree with the poster who said open source is not just a
hobby, it's a portfolio.

Hop on rubyforge and search for your potential employees stats.

Judge the person, not the ego or the hype. There is no better way
than investigating their true merits. A school can very easily be
slid through if you know the right people or the right way to
circumvent the system. There is no way to pull the wool over the eyes
of a massive community of intelligent individuals though, and that's
exactly what you see at the 'core' of the ruby community.

A job of mine required Network+ certification even though it did not
have practical application. I studied the test prep books for a week
and certified with flying colors.

I'd never want you to trust me to touch your network though...

Want me to code some Ruby for you? Fine... The first thing I'm going
to show you is the free software projects i'm involved in, the fact
that I'm an organized of a Ruby Users Group, etc.

I'm not going to say.. look at this piece of paper with a coffee stain
on it that says "I did good".

This community is still very grassroots, even with the RoR explosion,
and I believe that what you are experiencing in the reaction to this
post is that sentiment, which makes me MORE proud to be a Rubyist than
ever.

Besides, why would you want to trust someone elses judgement when you
can use your own

···

On 11/3/05, Nathaniel S. H. Brown <nshb@inimit.com> wrote:

mailing lists and put together your own amalgamation of what "The Ruby Way"
is. A school, if credible, would only certify that you know the way.

[Kero1 (Kero)]

>>2) Allows you to put those important "keywords" on your resume
>> which gets you past HR and hence at the very least gets you that
>>first
>
> interview.

Interesting. I prefer to avoid companies that have an HR
department, but not everyone can or wants to do that.

Whether it's the CEO or the Director of IT, someone of influence within that
organization will be reviewing your resume when it comes down to it.
Ensuring that you have the keywords inherant in the langugage strengthens
your reputation. From the perspective of the hiring agent, whoever that may
be, they likely don't know you deeper than what you put on your resume. So
whatever you can do to strengthen that trust, and give them a better
impression, can only benefit your interview, if not their final decicion
whether or not to hire you.

Sorry, I don't do Rails.

[snip]

James, not to deflate what seems to be a rather large ego, but not all of us
are as core in Ruby community as you are clearly announcing. Others need
stepping stones to ensure that all the bases are covered when it comes to
programming the language. Having a certification from a reputable issuer,
ensures that all the fundamentals, and hopefully some of the advanced
concepts are covered. If you are new to the langauge, as most are, the
inherant credibility of a certification would ensure that all topics are
covered and would hopefully give one with the certification an appreciation
that indeed, they are able to confidently tackle a Ruby project from all
angles with the best practices in mind, security and otherwise.

If you had never programmed before, where would you start? Likely being self
taught you would start sifting through google, maybe checkout the ruby
mailing lists and put together your own amalgamation of what "The Ruby Way"
is. A school, if credible, would only certify that you know the way.

I got a MSc CS certificate somewhere. It took me 5.5 years to get it,
but it does not mean I can do everything related to Computing Science.

A Ruby certificate that tells that I covered "the basics" would be as
much as saying an algorithm runs in O(n log n) but failing to understand
Why (and hence When) a simple divide and conquer achieves such complexity.

After more than four years of using Ruby, I don't have the slightest idea
what you would require for a certificate. I haven't used half of the
stdlib, so i'd probably fail the test.

In a sense, self.to_i (thanks, Hal) is already better than a
certificate. But then, Hal is supposedly one of the few ppl that knows
"The Ruby Way" in all details, too.

+--- Kero ------------------------- kero@chello@nl ---+

all the meaningless and empty words I spoke |
                      Promises -- The Cranberries |

+--- M38c --- http://members.chello.nl/k.vangelder ---+

[Todd1 (Todd)]

James Britt wrote:

Nathaniel S. H. Brown wrote:
> A school, if credible, would only certify that you know the way.

I disagree with that conclusion.

James

irb(main):001:0> ruby_exists = true
=> true
irb(main):002:0> liberation_exists = "maybe?"
=> "maybe?"
irb(main):003:0> freedom = ruby_exists and liberation_exists
=> "maybe?"
irb(main):004:0> freedom
=> true

Well, mostly, it appears to me, Mr. Brown, that your your description
of "how it usually happens with certification" (them's my words, not
yours) is a concept that doesn't "truck" with a handful of rubyists.
You may be right. A person may quite very well have to sell hisself
(herself for you lady folk). Everybody pretty much accepts that, or is
learning it. But, then, having a reputation might be better than a
letter that claims to know what you're talking about. But, then, that
really could be just as phony. I think on the database.theory list I
ran into a couple of them doo-dads.

Personally, for better or for worse, I don't much "truck" with them HR
fellas.

Todd

[Nathaniel_Brown2 (Nathaniel Brown)]

>
> James, not to deflate what seems to be a rather large ego,
but not all
> of us are as core in Ruby community as you are clearly announcing.

Um, excuse me, you are certainly not going to ingratiate
yourself to those of us in the "core Ruby community" by
needlessly insulting someone who has made a lot of valuable
contributions to the Ruby world, simply because he has an
opinion contrary to yours.

I am not trying to degrade any of his accomplishments, nor win over any of
the other people on this list. His mentioned confidence boosters have likely
rippled into my experience learning Ruby, and likely many others, which is
an accomplishment of itself. But, having put some effort towards a personal,
more self accomplishment of completing a certification, similar to many of
the people on this list by which of having a bachelors, masters, or even a
PhD in computer science or the like. It is an accomplishment, and should
give someone a sense of accomplishment and confidence after completing.

Albeit, that a certification does not benefit anyone else directly other
than the person by which was certified, it should be considered a fair
non-biased guarantee that the areas of a course on such a language are
understood. This is entirely dependant on the issuer, who would have to be
trusted by those to accept the guarantee.

Plus the beauty of the Ruby community is that it doesn't take
too much to become a real star. David Heinemeier Hansson
pretty much came out of nowhere a year ago and is now an
extremely well known name in the Ruby world, all because of
Rails and how he used the power of Ruby to create it.

His path is a rarity in any industry, and is definitely a great means to get
noticed. But having our entire society measured by open contribution is not
feasible as a be-all-and-end all. It should undoubtably be a major
enhancement to any applicants resume, but not the only method by which to
measure a candidate. A certification would simply enhance the visibility, to
lead to a first interview. After that, it would be up to the candidate to
prove themselves and negotiate a deal.

On nearly every job posting out there, it says degree in a related field, or
equivalent experience.

Having a certification and the experience puts you in a more favourable
position than someone with the same experience, on paper. The rest is up to
the interview itself, and how you sell yourself in process after they have
decided to consider your application.

> Others need
> stepping stones to ensure that all the bases are covered
when it comes
> to programming the language. Having a certification from a
reputable
> issuer, ensures that all the fundamentals, and hopefully
some of the
> advanced concepts are covered. If you are new to the
langauge, as most
> are, the inherant credibility of a certification would
ensure that all
> topics are covered and would hopefully give one with the
certification
> an appreciation that indeed, they are able to confidently tackle a
> Ruby project from all angles with the best practices in
mind, security and otherwise.

I agree with the others that certifications have little
value, and that all (and more) of what you are suggesting
above could be gotten by contributing to an open souce
project. The only problem is that would take more time than
some silly certification course, and I guess therein lies the
problem...lazy people wants results fast so they can jump on
the bandwagon with little effort. Sorry but no
self-respecting Ruby shop is going to get on that boat.

How can putting the effort into getting certified be considered lazy? It
takes energy, time, and commitment to take any certification, or degree for
that matter. Blindly disregarding a certification, simply doesn't seem like
a very wise choice. Nor does putting all your faith in it as well. It is a
complement to your resume, something to enhance your chance to get noticed,
and in that first interview. After that, it is up to you.

> If you had never programmed before, where would you start? Likely
> being self taught you would start sifting through google, maybe
> checkout the ruby mailing lists and put together your own
amalgamation of what "The Ruby Way"
> is. A school, if credible, would only certify that you know the way.

I strongly disagree. I've got a simple paraphrase that
explains how most Ruby programmers would judge another: "Show
me the code!!!"

When learning something from nothing, you need to start superficially for it
to be easily, and quickly digested, then you move into something more
specific, such as the code. Looking at code is one of the best ways to learn
a language, but what happens when you start reading a someone else who is on
a blind path along the ruby way? Reading the blogs, wiki, mailing lists, and
such, only ensures that when you read the code, you have a superficial
foundation by which to put some of the pieces together. Of course, I am only
speaking from my experience learning Ruby, and trying other methods learning
other such languages.

Warmest regards,
Nathan.

···

On 11/3/05, Nathaniel S. H. Brown <nshb@inimit.com> wrote:

--------------------------------------------------------------
Nathaniel S. H. Brown Toll Free 1.877.4.INIMIT
Inimit Innovations Phone 604.724.6624
www.inimit.com Fax 604.444.9942

[Christian_Neukirche1 (Christian Neukirchen)]

Kero <kero@chello.single-dot.nl> writes:

In a sense, self.to_i (thanks, Hal) is already better than a
certificate. But then, Hal is supposedly one of the few ppl that knows
"The Ruby Way" in all details, too.

While I don't think that a certificate is a good idea, self.to_i is
even worse. Please.

···

+--- Kero ------------------------- kero@chello@nl ---+

--
Christian Neukirchen <chneukirchen@gmail.com> http://chneukirchen.org

[Kevin_Brown]

<snip>

Albeit, that a certification does not benefit anyone else directly other
than the person by which was certified,

<snip>

This has already been said, but let us not forget those raking in the cash.
Or if you won't give me "raking in" then, let's not forget those that are
"earning a living" in this field.

···

On Thursday 03 November 2005 19:51, Nathaniel S. H. Brown wrote:

[Bill_Kelly]

Albeit, that a certification does not benefit anyone else directly other
than the person by which was certified

The entity awarding the certificate receives $$$ ? I've wondered
if they benefit most. . . . (HaHaOnlySerious)

I agree with the others that certifications have little value, and that all (and more) of what you are suggesting above could be gotten by contributing to an open source project. The only problem is that would take more time than some silly certification course, and I guess therein lies the problem...lazy people wants results fast so they can jump on the bandwagon with little effort. Sorry but no self-respecting Ruby shop is going to get on that boat.

How can putting the effort into getting certified be considered lazy? It
takes energy, time, and commitment to take any certification, or degree for
that matter.

True. A close friend recently underwent a year college course,
online, for a certificate in computer programming. I can verify
it required concentrated and consistent daily effort on her part
to pass the classes (she got straight A's... and worked hard for them.)

However - I had the chance to observe how they were teaching
this material. It was a lot of memorization. I think my friend
could have learned more in three months being tutored to write
a real--simple--program, than all the quizzes and tests and program fragments she was given to write in a year.

I mean - she has a certificate - and got straight A's - and
worked *hard* .... but doesn't know how to program.

As to the "laziness" question - not all persons applying for
certificates may be lazy, to be sure. But some may not understand the difference between passing some exams, and developing a complete, useful program. The 90/10 rule may
be hard to learn until one has actually experienced it: the
last 10% of a program or library developed for public consumption can take 90% of the work.

So, yes - as a prospective employer, a certificate would mean
very little to me, compared to a rubyforge project.

I'd go as far as saying, based on my limited first hand
observation, that certificates--despite the hard work of the
student--may be a scam. (Even if well-intentioned...)

Regards,

Bill

···

From: "Nathaniel S. H. Brown" <nshb@inimit.com>

[Gary_Wright]

I think that if you are putting in the effort in order to learn
the material and gain skills, then it isn't lazy or a waste of
time. We all have different ways of learning and going through
an organized class/book/exam process is one of those ways.

But not everyone gets a certificate for these reasons nor does
the certificate process *force* you to have these values and
gain these skills.

Gary Wright

···

On Nov 3, 2005, at 8:51 PM, Nathaniel S. H. Brown wrote:

How can putting the effort into getting certified be considered lazy?

[Austin_Ziegler5 (Austin Ziegler)]

I donno; self.to_i is a joke thread and people *know* it's a joke.
Certifications are jokes, but everyone treats them seriously. That
means that self.to_i is *far* superior to certifications, IMO.

-austin

···

On 11/5/05, Christian Neukirchen <chneukirchen@gmail.com> wrote:

Kero <kero@chello.single-dot.nl> writes:

> In a sense, self.to_i (thanks, Hal) is already better than a
> certificate. But then, Hal is supposedly one of the few ppl that knows
> "The Ruby Way" in all details, too.

While I don't think that a certificate is a good idea, self.to_i is
even worse. Please.

--
Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com
               * Alternate: austin@halostatue.ca

[Kero1 (Kero)]

In a sense, self.to_i (thanks, Hal) is already better than a
certificate. But then, Hal is supposedly one of the few ppl that knows
"The Ruby Way" in all details, too.

While I don't think that a certificate is a good idea, self.to_i is
even worse. Please.

I know there won't be 1000 organizers of RubyConf, 10000 authors of Ruby
books, 100000 contributors to c.l.r, rubyforge and RCR; when there
are one million Ruby programmers on this world.

I do not need to see your (future) university degree to know that you are
quite smart, chris.

+--- Kero ------------------------- kero@chello@nl ---+

all the meaningless and empty words I spoke |
                      Promises -- The Cranberries |

+--- M38c --- http://members.chello.nl/k.vangelder ---+

[Greg_Brown1 (Greg Brown)]

...

OT: There are 3 Browns on this post. Wow. Our surname IS common

···

On 11/3/05, Kevin Brown <blargity@gmail.com> wrote:

[Kev_Jackson2 (Kev Jackson)]

I'd go as far as saying, based on my limited first hand
observation, that certificates--despite the hard work of the
student--may be a scam. (Even if well-intentioned...)

I went to uni a (long) while ago and really enjoyed the experience etc, and my course was Computer Science and it did help me land my first job. After that, I actually had to learn how to program. I spent 3 years learning various languages and algorithms etc and at the end I discovered only that I didn't know C well enough, I didn't know Java well enough, I didn't know x86 asm well enough, but I *did* learn how to learn. That was the most valuable thing I got from uni, simply learning how to do my own research and the fundamental algorithms. Language practice (although mildly useful for demonstrating the theory) taught me nothing about how to structure a project correctly or how to manage my code - because the course was setup not to be an introduction to the industry, rather it was supposed to teach the theory.

Erm yeah I worked quite hard - though I could have worked a lot harder - and if I had the chance to go back and decide again if I wanted to go, I'd choose it again - but this time I'd do some open source too to get real experience of writing real code.

I think I had a point at one point there...

Kev

[Ryan_Leavengood]

Most definitely. I'll go even further and say that many computer
science and engineering degrees are of questionable value (I won't say
a scam, but close.) And I have one! While a graduate certainly knows
more about computer science than the average person off the street,
that still doesn't mean they are totally ready to program in the real
world. Especially because many universities these days have become
like factories, cranking out as many graduates as they can as quickly
as possible. Certification programs are even worse.

In the end nothing teaches like experience. Of course you can't just
wake up one morning with years of experience under your belt, but you
can certainly do some open source work, much like other people
volunteer to get their foot in the door in their fields. If I've
learned anything in the past 10 years or so, it is that learning
itself takes time, and those who try to hurry it along will end up not
learning anything in the end.

Of course we can debate the merits of certifications in the general
sense all day, but I think you will find that most seasoned Ruby
programmers will not find the concept of a "Ruby Certification" very
palatable.

Ryan

···

On 11/3/05, Bill Kelly <billk@cts.com> wrote:

I'd go as far as saying, based on my limited first hand
observation, that certificates--despite the hard work of the
student--may be a scam. (Even if well-intentioned...)

[Christian_Neukirche1 (Christian Neukirchen)]

Kero <kero@chello.single-dot.nl> writes:

In a sense, self.to_i (thanks, Hal) is already better than a
certificate. But then, Hal is supposedly one of the few ppl that knows
"The Ruby Way" in all details, too.

While I don't think that a certificate is a good idea, self.to_i is
even worse. Please.

I know there won't be 1000 organizers of RubyConf, 10000 authors of Ruby
books, 100000 contributors to c.l.r, rubyforge and RCR; when there
are one million Ruby programmers on this world.

I do not need to see your (future) university degree to know that you are
quite smart, chris.

But you don't need to see a number created by some "random" algorithm
either. There is no point in that. Look at what I really do to judge
me, not at a weird, partial hash of it.

···

+--- Kero ------------------------- kero@chello@nl ---+

--
Christian Neukirchen <chneukirchen@gmail.com> http://chneukirchen.org