I'm going to agree with Jan on this, and it doesn't have to do with just
programming. My first job in IT, we had a guy that convinced his way in by
pretending he knew things. I was his "go to" for things he couldn't handle.
Needless to say, he's now a very unqualified system manager. It's
unfortunate for them, but it happens. I have a handful of similar stories
dealing with this or that person's clout, meaning, he's not the only one
that slipped invasively through the cracks.
In interviews, I take the middle ground with prospective help, all the
while keeping in mind that even though young blood is good, somebody that
has already walked through fire to get here is much, much better than a
signed piece of paper, and, in this case, one that carries little weight.
···
On Dec 17, 2012 2:44 AM, "Florian Gilcher" <flo@andersground.net> wrote:
On Dec 16, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Jan E. <lists@ruby-forum.com> wrote:
> @ Florian:
>
> It seems we have a very different understanding of being a programmer.
> Somebody who can do basic tasks within a team that looks after him is a
> code monkey to me, not a programmer. Yeah, you can probably become a
> decent code monkey in a few months. Many school kids today don't even
> have to be taught the basics, because they've already published projects
> on GitHub, maybe done some small jobs etc.
It isn't marketing lingo. Don't you feel pleasure and wonder coding?
Seeing what you can create and how you can express it? I mean connect to
that - this isn't just a job, we're not code monkeys or pixel pushers,
we're artists. It's wondeful. Connect to that. I know the job can get
stale but let's not forget what we're doing here.
Things Flatiron Students built this semester:
http://openissu.es - open issues aggregator off github with bounties,
difficulty rating, owner endorsements, and upvotes.
plus I think we've had like 8 open source commits, have open sourced all
the student projects, written like 60 blog posts on topics, and built http://xta.github.com/HalloweenBash/
Happy to provide more pudding for proof.
I know my language can get lavish when talking about code, it isn't a
gimmick, it's how I feel.
Hah! I got every available upgrade option and bought 3rd party RAM for my 2011 MBP (currently runs 16GB of RAM) like hi-res screen, fastest CPU they offered, etc etc. Cost me, even with the 3rd party RAM purchase, just a hair under $4000. Spent another 200 on books, and you don't have to pay for hosting anywhere with heroku, appfog.com, or Amazon's AWS.
You could spend more like $4500 at max and have everything you need, including a year enrolled at codecademy.com and all the courses for Ruby, RSpec, Rails, HTML+CSS, etc you could want!
Paying $10,000 for a non-accredited school's programming course when their focus isn't even really to teach you the language but to teach you the 'essence' of programming.. insane!
···
--
D. Deryl Downey
"The bug which you would fright me with I seek" - William Shakespeare - The Winter's Tale, Act III, Scene II - A court of Justice.
On Dec 18, 2012, at 5:26 AM, Peter Hickman <peterhickman386@googlemail.com> wrote:
On 18 December 2012 09:43, Jan E. <lists@ruby-forum.com> wrote:
But I guess nobody would be willing to pay $10,000 for something so
boring as programming knowledge ...
But $10k would buy you a killer computer, plenty of books and pay for a years hosting to practice with
This one doesn't cost anything. Different model actually. I guess
after they ask the employers to buy out the student for $20k but there
is no financial risk put on the individual whom goes there. I believe
they even have financial assistance for people who can't afford living
by the school.
Don't do the Hunter program. It used to be a good program but the teacher who
created the program and taught all the classes left and took the program
with him.
He is now teaching the same program on his own at thecodeeducators.com.
That's
the program I decided to enroll in and I'm happy with it. The right
program for
you depends on what you want to learn. Both the hunter program and the
nyu
program teach html/css/javascript/mysql/php. So basically they teach
you how to
build websites not applications. It sounds like the flatiron school
does both
with the emphasis on apps.
Well we are a RoR shop and so an ideal candidate would be someone with a
few years RoR experience. Having said that none have come forward over the
past two years when we were recruiting (maybe London is too much of a
backwater, but I suspect it is that our industry sector - sports data - is
not interesting / sexy enough).
What we ended up with were CS or hard science graduates (maths, physics)
with little or no Ruby experience who showed an interest in computing
beyond what was needed for their degree. It was this interest beyond the
needs of their degree that swayed us. One had written some Facebook apps
just for the hell of it. Another had taught themselves Android development
and created a scientific app that probably only twelve people in the world
will use.
An interest in computing without immediate commercial gain. The ability to
teach yourself new skills. A desire to learn. These things made us want to
interview them, the degree (while I would like to say having a degree is
not important it does show an ability to study and think analytically)
subject area is of less importance. I'm not sure how we would view a degree
in Medieval Literature but one guy in another department has a degree in
Theology so I suspect that it wouldn't be a problem.
So what we are looking for is:
1) The ability to study and think analytically - a degree is a good proxy
for this
2) The ability to teach oneself new skills
3) The creation of applications with those skills that have made it into
the wild - application of those skills
4) An interest in computing beyond marketable skills
5) Experience in a commercial computing environment (around 1 year is good)
But thats what it takes to be interviewed by us, other people will have
other criteria. We are a small shop so making a bad hire would be a real
pain but with the criteria I have given here we have not made a hire that
we regret in the slightest.
Ask yourself what adding Flatiron would add to your CV in light of this. I
suspect that by itself it would add nothing.
So the real question is "I have $10k, how can I make myself employable as a
RoR developer?"
Sorry, I have no answer for that.
···
On 15 December 2012 23:20, Kevin Y. <lists@ruby-forum.com> wrote:
HI Peter, thanks for you input.
Just wondering, at the risk of looking naive (and I am at this point),
what are the most important elements of a candidate you look for? Yeah,
I did not expect the 'degree' from the school would help at all. It was
more of the connections the school may provide.
3.10K is a rip off. However, the benefits outweigh. Colleges are bigger
rip offs.
For purposes of pure learning . . . yes, they are. Keep in mind,
though,
that many employers simply will not hire anyone without a college
degree.
A lot of those say they'll hire without a degree if you have
"equivalent"
experience, but mostly (even if they believe it) they don't really mean
it deep down inside. Exceptions tend to be made for people who are
"rock
stars" (e.g. someone hiring for Ruby on Rails might not turn down DHH
even if he didn't have a degree), but most of us aren't famous that way.
Is that really true that employers will not hire a candidate without
programming related degree? I know at least two people who went to fine
art programs and one is doing very well as an iOS app developer and the
other something else I do not know at this moment. Also I attended few
SkillShare courses that are taught by professional programmers who were
self-taught and they definitely did not think that college degrees are
necessary as long as your work reflects certain level of skill. There
wasn't any conflict of interests as those classes were free.
···
On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 08:40:19AM +0900, Kevin Y. wrote:
Avi, its not that we are saying that you are not sincere in what you say
(even though the language you use makes my skin crawl) or that you dont
help motivated people get to grips with programming. The issue for us is
that few, if any, employers will be swayed by a candidate that went on a
course. Rails, much like Perl and PHP in this respect, is something that a
programmer will have taught themselves because they were interested in it
(rather than a mandatory module on their degree) and so the culture around
it is of the self motivated, self taught programmer. Most of the people
here perhaps, like myself, read the DrDobbs article on Ruby and started
leaning Ruby or saw an article on a website that interested them enough to
see what was in it.
Waving certificates around like it means something is the province on 9 to
5 Java programmers who took up programming because they heard you could
earn lots of money working for banks. If they had the chops they would have
taken up accounting or law but they are either not smart enough or too
lazy. These people collect certificates like talismans in lue of actual
practical experience. You might not remember how it was with people
becoming Microsoft Certified 'this and that' but not having the faintest
idea as to how computers actually worked, thank god those days seem to have
passed.
If a CV landed on my desk with nothing more that "I paid $10k for a course
and got a certificate" on it my first and last thought will be "you are a
fool and I dont want anything to do with you"
We have actually interviewed someone who taught themselves Rails and was
building a Facebook clone with the code on github, Turns out that the crap
code was his and the good bits were from his collaborator, but he did at
least get as far as having an interview.
Maybe I'm just old but I expect programmers to be self motivated and teach
themselves things that they need or are interested in. I expect them to
have tried to do something completely impractical and beyond their grasp
for no better reason than it seemed like a good idea at the time. I expect
them to have random fields of expertise because then just happened to get
deeply interested in something they stumbled upon at some point. I expect
them to have skills that are completely at odds with their jobs (a web
developer who is also an expert in FPGA programming).
It isn't marketing lingo. Don't you feel pleasure and wonder coding?
Pleasure yes, wonder no. That was when I was 14 maybe, but most of
the magic went away when I looked behind the scenes. But don't pity
me, I am content the way it is.
Seeing what you can create and how you can express it? I mean connect to
that - this isn't just a job, we're not code monkeys or pixel pushers,
we're artists.
I would never describe myself as an artist - I am an engineer. Note
also that artists usually do not work against deadlines or roadmaps
laid out by others. Instead they have their own agenda. While some
of us may actually be able to create something based on their own
preferences and be successful with that (the term "rock star" was
used), the overwhelming majority works in a different mode.
It's wondeful. Connect to that. I know the job can get
stale but let's not forget what we're doing here.
Exactly: to be good at our job one needs enthusiasm (like for
_everything_ you want to excel in), creativity and a certain level of
cold-bloodedness (otherwise you won't be able to tackle complicated
matter). Not getting carried away by one's own creations is actually
a virtue.
I know my language can get lavish when talking about code, it isn't a
gimmick, it's how I feel.
Well, I feel different.
Kind regards
robert
···
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 9:11 PM, Avi F. <lists@ruby-forum.com> wrote:
Quoting Peter Hickman (peterhickman386@googlemail.com):
So what we are looking for is:
1) The ability to study and think analytically - a degree is a good proxy
for this
2) The ability to teach oneself new skills
3) The creation of applications with those skills that have made it into
the wild - application of those skills
4) An interest in computing beyond marketable skills
5) Experience in a commercial computing environment (around 1 year is good)
I wonder how you deal with people who offer lots of experience (say,
around a quarter of a century). I mean: what could a person learn in a
year? If I compare myself now and after one year being employed, I
certainly wouldn't want to go back... And I had already done one
year's Fortran77 at the university plus an unforgettable year writing
administrative code in GWbasic (compulsory military service).
Carlo
···
Subject: Re: Wondering About Flatiron School
Date: Sun 16 Dec 12 08:38:31PM +0900
--
* Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte,
* K * Carlo E. Prelz - fluido@fluido.as che bisogno ci sarebbe
* di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu)
1. I did not say a "programming related" degree. I just said a "college"
degree. My significant other has been working in software fields for
years on the strength of psychology and biology degrees (not in psych or
bio related software, mind you) in addition to her skills and experience
working her way up from entry level. Regardless of her experience,
excellent recommendations, and kills, she almost certainly would not have
her current job if not for at least one of those degrees or some other
(at least four-year) degree to replace them.
2. Without a degree, "equivalent" experience may apply, as I mentioned.
This is largely only available to "rockstars" or (as I should have
mentioned, but unfortunately did not) people who are grandfathered in by
virtue of having more years of professional work in the field than many
college graduates have been alive.
3. My DHH example was intentionally extreme. Lesser "rockstars" exist,
like people who've made iOS apps on their own time that have been bought
by enough users that it raises a hiring manager's eyebrows. Mere skill
is not enough in the general job market.
There are exceptions to every generalization, including mine, but they
are called exceptions precisely because they are exceptional in some way.
···
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 07:35:48AM +0900, Kevin Y. wrote:
Chad Perrin wrote in post #1089291:
>
> Keep in mind, though, that many employers simply will not hire anyone
> without a college degree. A lot of those say they'll hire without a
> degree if you have "equivalent" experience, but mostly (even if they
> believe it) they don't really mean it deep down inside. Exceptions
> tend to be made for people who are "rock stars" (e.g. someone hiring
> for Ruby on Rails might not turn down DHH even if he didn't have a
> degree), but most of us aren't famous that way.
Is that really true that employers will not hire a candidate without
programming related degree? I know at least two people who went to fine
art programs and one is doing very well as an iOS app developer and the
other something else I do not know at this moment. Also I attended few
SkillShare courses that are taught by professional programmers who were
self-taught and they definitely did not think that college degrees are
necessary as long as your work reflects certain level of skill. There
wasn't any conflict of interests as those classes were free.
We have come to the conclusion that experience is experience regardless of
the languages or technologies (personally I have been programming since the
late 70s and was originally a mainframe COBOL programmer, spent a few years
writing financial software in Basic). You can learn a lot in a year, but it
does depend on the year. As someone said "They know Java, now they need to
learn how to program", well that one year counts for a lot. Given the
choice between two candidates one who has left university with 3 years of
Java but no real world experience and one who has completed one years
employment as a PHP programmer the candidate with real world experience
actually has the upper hand.
But then again as I have said we are a small shop and need people who can
take on a problem and handle it by themselves. A large bank that is hiring
a dozen programmers probably has completely different criteria.
It is my experience that much of the technology that I have learnt over the
years is, of itself, completely useless (and as a consequence does not
appear on my CV). I have used languages and operating systems that are
almost extinct so they are not marketable skills. The real skills (the ones
that are not tied to a language or platform) accumulate very slowly. So the
difference between no real world experience and one years experience is
significant, but the difference between 1 year and 3 is less marked. 25
years experience is not 25 times greater than 1 year - I would only
consider the last 5 to 7 years of your CV to be of interest.
If however your CV showed that you had been doing the same thing for the
last 15 years then it might start to count against you - I like to see
someone learning new things (or at least new to them).
···
On 16 December 2012 12:38, Carlo E. Prelz <fluido@fluido.as> wrote:
I wonder how you deal with people who offer lots of experience (say,
around a quarter of a century). I mean: what could a person learn in a
year? If I compare myself now and after one year being employed, I
certainly wouldn't want to go back... And I had already done one
year's Fortran77 at the university plus an unforgettable year writing
administrative code in GWbasic (compulsory military service).
On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 01:16:38PM +0900, Chad Perrin wrote:
1. I did not say a "programming related" degree. I just said a "college"
degree. My significant other has been working in software fields for
years on the strength of psychology and biology degrees (not in psych or
bio related software, mind you) in addition to her skills and experience
working her way up from entry level. Regardless of her experience,
excellent recommendations, and kills, she almost certainly would not have
her current job if not for at least one of those degrees or some other
(at least four-year) degree to replace them.
Quoting Peter Hickman (peterhickman386@googlemail.com):
It is my experience that much of the technology that I have learnt
over the years is, of itself, completely useless (and as a
consequence does not appear on my CV). I have used languages and
operating systems that are almost extinct so they are not marketable
skills. The real skills (the ones that are not tied to a language or
platform) accumulate very slowly.
You are very right. Nevertheless, you seldom find those slowly
accumulating skills mentioned in job requirements. I see a clear
tendency at giving a predominant rank to the current buzzword in
whatever IT faculties have recently established as "best practice."
It boils down to the wisdom of the person who is called to
evaluate candidates. Difficult job...
Carlo
···
Subject: Re: Wondering About Flatiron School
Date: Sun 16 Dec 12 11:47:23PM +0900
--
* Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte,
* K * Carlo E. Prelz - fluido@fluido.as che bisogno ci sarebbe
* di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu)
This one doesn't cost anything. Different business model actually. I
guess after they ask the employers to buy out the student for $20k but
there is no financial risk put on the individual whom goes there. I
believe they even have financial assistance for people who can't
afford living by the school.
