[OT] Places for a programmer to live?

ruby-talk
1

While we seem to be rife with OT threads, I thought I'd throw in an OT question that's been percolating in my mind for quite a while.

Where do you recommend to live? Feel free to provide just a city name, or to go into detail. When I say "for a programmer," I'm mainly referring to the existence of programming jobs, but other aspects, such as the existence of ?UGs, proximity to nerdy attractions, etc. could play a part. Also feel free to just tell me some places to look for ideas, and then tell me to Get to Googlin'. :slight_smile:

Obviously, the usual places show up: Silicon Valley, Wash DC (where I am now), *insert big city here* -- any info you have about why you would or wouldn't recommend one of these would be appreciated. I'm also looking for places that are off-the-beaten path (but still accessible, so Fraser, B.C. is out of the question, sorry) -- Portland, OR and even Bend, OR seem to be attracting techies, for example. Why? Should I be interested, too? Why or why not? I have preference towards places in the US, but if you have hometown pride, you are of course welcome to give it shoutout. :slight_smile:

For the short term, I'm stuck here earning a living, and for the medium term, I'm probably going to go where my long-time friends are, in Calif. (SF? SB? LA? SD? not sure), but I'm trying to plan ahead a little more than I have in the past, so am hoping to build an arsenal of info. You guys are the best group I could think to ask.

I'll provide a little about DC, in fairness to y'all, and maybe as a template.
1. The housing market here is ridiculously expensive. I think it might be going down a *little* soon, but yikes, it's high.
2. It's probably because high tech jobs are in high supply here. Gov't contracting is the name of the game, and while you probably won't be using Agile methodologies to build the Next Big Thing, you'll at least have a fairly well-paying and steady job.
3. Weather's not fantastic. Temperate climates. Warm for its latitude because of some sort of wind thing. Generally pretty cloudy during the Spring/Fall, though, due to its proximity to the water.
4. Traffic sucks. Combine that with the fact that you can only afford to live in the boonies and you've got a recipe for un-fun.
5. Entertainment is pretty decent, if you don't mind the traffic it takes to get there. We've got the Kennedy Center in DC, Nissan Pavillion out west in Warrenton, VA, all sorts of jazz, bars, etc. and DC is obviously a pretty popular place for artists to include as part of a national/regional tour. We've got fantastic museums and art galleries, many of which are free.
6. There's a very good variety of decent restaurants, and some very good ones. Of course, for any genre X of food, there's apparently some city Y that produces better X. Oh well. :slight_smile:
7. It's a big, suburban region. You're not going to see any "sense of belonging" to the DC area, in people. You're not going to find that 'cept for probably way in the city (where it's urban), or way out (where it's rural, in which case you'll find the annual Nokesville festival, or whatever).
8. I may be full of it.

I shut up now.

Thanks,
Devin

2

A programmer should live in a dark room in a city with a cool climate to
avoid feeling any obligation to go outside.
There should be a fridge close to hand and a cafe over the road.
There should be a fast Internet connection and a reliable power supply.
The city itself is irrelevant.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Devin Mullins" <twifkak@comcast.net>
To: "ruby-talk ML" <ruby-talk@ruby-lang.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 8:09 AM
Subject: [OT] Places for a programmer to live?

While we seem to be rife with OT threads, I thought I'd throw in an OT
question that's been percolating in my mind for quite a while.

Where do you recommend to live? Feel free to provide just a city name,
or to go into detail. When I say "for a programmer," I'm mainly
referring to the existence of programming jobs, but other aspects, such
as the existence of ?UGs, proximity to nerdy attractions, etc. could
play a part. Also feel free to just tell me some places to look for
ideas, and then tell me to Get to Googlin'. :slight_smile:

Obviously, the usual places show up: Silicon Valley, Wash DC (where I am
now), *insert big city here* -- any info you have about why you would or
wouldn't recommend one of these would be appreciated. I'm also looking
for places that are off-the-beaten path (but still accessible, so
Fraser, B.C. is out of the question, sorry) -- Portland, OR and even
Bend, OR seem to be attracting techies, for example. Why? Should I be
interested, too? Why or why not? I have preference towards places in the
US, but if you have hometown pride, you are of course welcome to give it
shoutout. :slight_smile:

For the short term, I'm stuck here earning a living, and for the medium
term, I'm probably going to go where my long-time friends are, in Calif.
(SF? SB? LA? SD? not sure), but I'm trying to plan ahead a little more
than I have in the past, so am hoping to build an arsenal of info. You
guys are the best group I could think to ask.

I'll provide a little about DC, in fairness to y'all, and maybe as a
template.
1. The housing market here is ridiculously expensive. I think it might
be going down a *little* soon, but yikes, it's high.
2. It's probably because high tech jobs are in high supply here. Gov't
contracting is the name of the game, and while you probably won't be
using Agile methodologies to build the Next Big Thing, you'll at least
have a fairly well-paying and steady job.
3. Weather's not fantastic. Temperate climates. Warm for its latitude
because of some sort of wind thing. Generally pretty cloudy during the
Spring/Fall, though, due to its proximity to the water.
4. Traffic sucks. Combine that with the fact that you can only afford to
live in the boonies and you've got a recipe for un-fun.
5. Entertainment is pretty decent, if you don't mind the traffic it
takes to get there. We've got the Kennedy Center in DC, Nissan Pavillion
out west in Warrenton, VA, all sorts of jazz, bars, etc. and DC is
obviously a pretty popular place for artists to include as part of a
national/regional tour. We've got fantastic museums and art galleries,
many of which are free.
6. There's a very good variety of decent restaurants, and some very good
ones. Of course, for any genre X of food, there's apparently some city Y
that produces better X. Oh well. :slight_smile:
7. It's a big, suburban region. You're not going to see any "sense of
belonging" to the DC area, in people. You're not going to find that
'cept for probably way in the city (where it's urban), or way out (where
it's rural, in which case you'll find the annual Nokesville festival, or
whatever).
8. I may be full of it.

I shut up now.

Thanks,
Devin

3

Devin Mullins wrote:

While we seem to be rife with OT threads, I thought I'd throw in an OT question that's been percolating in my mind for quite a while.

Where do you recommend to live? Feel free to provide just a city name, or to go into detail. When I say "for a programmer," I'm mainly referring to the existence of programming jobs, but other aspects, such as the existence of ?UGs, proximity to nerdy attractions, etc. could play a part. Also feel free to just tell me some places to look for ideas, and then tell me to Get to Googlin'. :slight_smile:

Google isn't a bad start, it can help you find assorted lists and articles on "The 10 Best Places to Live", for numerous definitions of 'best'. Get a sense of cost of living, weather, crime rate, that sort of thing.

Worth looking into.

Obviously, the usual places show up: Silicon Valley, Wash DC (where I am now), *insert big city here* -- any info you have about why you would or wouldn't recommend one of these would be appreciated. I'm also looking for places that are off-the-beaten path (but still accessible, so Fraser, B.C. is out of the question, sorry) -- Portland, OR and even Bend, OR seem to be attracting techies, for example. Why? Should I be interested, too? Why or why not? I have preference towards places in the US, but if you have hometown pride, you are of course welcome to give it shoutout. :slight_smile:

I'm in Scottsdale/Phoenix. Nice enough, though to gets, um, HOT.

I've had poor luck with maintaining a Ruby users group, and my general take is that the climate and geography thwart a thriving social culture. (But I'm involved with Refresh Phoenix, so maybe that will improve.)

You really do need a car to get anyplace here, and there seems to be little sense of spontaneity. I'm a born and raised New Yawker, and I deeply miss the street life, the ability to hop on the bus or subway and just go someplace fast, easy, and cheap, or the option to walk and walk for miles, with endless stimulation. So, in comparison, Phoenix seems terribly isolated and sterile.

There are developer jobs here, .Net and Java work, plus some chip makers (Intel, Motorola) are in the area. It wouldn't be a *bad* choice if you can handle the weather, but culturally it's a wasteland. (But if you like hiking and the Great Outdoors, the Grand Canyon is about 4 hours away, there is skiing up in Flagstaff, and the desert really is beautiful. San Diego is about a 5-or-6 hour drive, too, for the beach.)

Also, we've been having a real estate boom, and house prices have gone nonlinear. Still cheaper then Cali; the surreal housing costs of the Left Coast are part of what's driving up costs here.

For the short term, I'm stuck here earning a living, and for the medium term, I'm probably going to go where my long-time friends are, in Calif. (SF? SB? LA? SD? not sure), but I'm trying to plan ahead a little more than I have in the past, so am hoping to build an arsenal of info. You guys are the best group I could think to ask.

I'll provide a little about DC, in fairness to y'all, and maybe as a template.
1. The housing market here is ridiculously expensive. I think it might be going down a *little* soon, but yikes, it's high.

Seems to be a common story.

2. It's probably because high tech jobs are in high supply here. Gov't contracting is the name of the game, and while you probably won't be using Agile methodologies to build the Next Big Thing, you'll at least have a fairly well-paying and steady job.
3. Weather's not fantastic. Temperate climates. Warm for its latitude because of some sort of wind thing. Generally pretty cloudy during the Spring/Fall, though, due to its proximity to the water.

I spent a few months of winter in Manassas some years ago. Not really bad. Less snow than NYC at least. More snow than Phoenix.

Anyways, I always have half a mind to up and move, so I'm also curious to hear what people say on this.

James

···

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4

In article <433089C8.7080807@comcast.net>,

While we seem to be rife with OT threads, I thought I'd throw in an OT
question that's been percolating in my mind for quite a while.

Where do you recommend to live? Feel free to provide just a city name,
or to go into detail. When I say "for a programmer," I'm mainly
referring to the existence of programming jobs, but other aspects, such
as the existence of ?UGs, proximity to nerdy attractions, etc. could
play a part. Also feel free to just tell me some places to look for
ideas, and then tell me to Get to Googlin'. :slight_smile:

Obviously, the usual places show up: Silicon Valley, Wash DC (where I am
now), *insert big city here* -- any info you have about why you would or
wouldn't recommend one of these would be appreciated. I'm also looking
for places that are off-the-beaten path (but still accessible, so
Fraser, B.C. is out of the question, sorry) -- Portland, OR and even
Bend, OR seem to be attracting techies, for example. Why? Should I be
interested, too? Why or why not? I have preference towards places in the
US, but if you have hometown pride, you are of course welcome to give it
shoutout. :slight_smile:

OK, I'm in Portland and you mentioned Portand, so here goes:
Why are all the techies moving to Portland, OR? A few reasons:
1) Lots of UGs. UGs for languages (we have a really good one in pdx.rb, see:
http://pdxruby.org ), UGs for things like Agile programming, etc. And lots
of people are active in them.
2) OSDL&Linus are here now. This is a very Open Source friendly place. The
Governor has even set up some sort of open source booster office in
Beaverton. More O'Reilly authors per-capita than any other US city.
3) The Weather: yes really. From about mid-June through about mid-October I
think this part of the country (and I'll include Seattle in this) has THE
best weather in the country. Not too hot. Not humid. Especially right now,
we have 70 to 75 degree sunny days (it might rain 1 day out of 7 in
September). OK, from mid-October till mid-June it's gray and gloomy, but hey
you've got to get some work done sometime, right? And that's what all the
coffee shops are for.
4) Scenery & stuff to do: Mt. St. Helens is about an hour away, the Columbia
Gorge is close, Crater Lake is about 4 hours away. One of the most scenic
coastlines in the world is 1.5 hours away. Seattle is 3 hours away and
Vancouver BC is about 6 hours away (by car).
5) cost of living (while rising) is still lower than the other major
West-Coast cities (LA, SF, Seattle).
6) Very good public transportation system. Almost as good as some European
cities. Probably one of the best in the US.

.... as far as jobs go, things were pretty terrible back in 2002-2004, but
much better now. I'm noticing a trend lately that a lot of people seems to
be starting their own businesses here (as opposed to working for a company).
If you are into the big company thing then Intel has a huge presence here
(15,000 employees - their largest site in the world) and Nike is based here
as well.

For the short term, I'm stuck here earning a living, and for the medium
term, I'm probably going to go where my long-time friends are, in Calif.
(SF? SB? LA? SD? not sure), but I'm trying to plan ahead a little more
than I have in the past, so am hoping to build an arsenal of info. You
guys are the best group I could think to ask.

I'll provide a little about DC, in fairness to y'all, and maybe as a
template.
1. The housing market here is ridiculously expensive. I think it might
be going down a *little* soon, but yikes, it's high.
2. It's probably because high tech jobs are in high supply here. Gov't
contracting is the name of the game, and while you probably won't be
using Agile methodologies to build the Next Big Thing, you'll at least
have a fairly well-paying and steady job.
3. Weather's not fantastic. Temperate climates. Warm for its latitude
because of some sort of wind thing. Generally pretty cloudy during the
Spring/Fall, though, due to its proximity to the water.
4. Traffic sucks. Combine that with the fact that you can only afford to
live in the boonies and you've got a recipe for un-fun.
5. Entertainment is pretty decent, if you don't mind the traffic it
takes to get there. We've got the Kennedy Center in DC, Nissan Pavillion
out west in Warrenton, VA, all sorts of jazz, bars, etc. and DC is
obviously a pretty popular place for artists to include as part of a
national/regional tour. We've got fantastic museums and art galleries,
many of which are free.
6. There's a very good variety of decent restaurants, and some very good
ones. Of course, for any genre X of food, there's apparently some city Y
that produces better X. Oh well. :slight_smile:

Portland has lots of great little eateries.

7. It's a big, suburban region. You're not going to see any "sense of
belonging" to the DC area, in people. You're not going to find that
'cept for probably way in the city (where it's urban), or way out (where
it's rural, in which case you'll find the annual Nokesville festival, or
whatever).
8. I may be full of it.

Phil

···

Devin Mullins <twifkak@comcast.net> wrote:

5

the view from my office in boulder colorado

   http://www.colorado.edu/webcam/pan1.html

yeah - it's dark now - but check back tomorrow. :wink:

-a

···

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Devin Mullins wrote:

While we seem to be rife with OT threads, I thought I'd throw in an OT
question that's been percolating in my mind for quite a while.

Where do you recommend to live? Feel free to provide just a city name, or to
go into detail. When I say "for a programmer," I'm mainly referring to the
existence of programming jobs, but other aspects, such as the existence of
?UGs, proximity to nerdy attractions, etc. could play a part. Also feel free
to just tell me some places to look for ideas, and then tell me to Get to
Googlin'. :slight_smile:

Obviously, the usual places show up: Silicon Valley, Wash DC (where I am
now), *insert big city here* -- any info you have about why you would or
wouldn't recommend one of these would be appreciated. I'm also looking for
places that are off-the-beaten path (but still accessible, so Fraser, B.C.
is out of the question, sorry) -- Portland, OR and even Bend, OR seem to be
attracting techies, for example. Why? Should I be interested, too? Why or
why not? I have preference towards places in the US, but if you have
hometown pride, you are of course welcome to give it shoutout. :slight_smile:

For the short term, I'm stuck here earning a living, and for the medium
term, I'm probably going to go where my long-time friends are, in Calif.
(SF? SB? LA? SD? not sure), but I'm trying to plan ahead a little more than
I have in the past, so am hoping to build an arsenal of info. You guys are
the best group I could think to ask.

I'll provide a little about DC, in fairness to y'all, and maybe as a
template. 1. The housing market here is ridiculously expensive. I think it
might be going down a *little* soon, but yikes, it's high. 2. It's probably
because high tech jobs are in high supply here. Gov't contracting is the
name of the game, and while you probably won't be using Agile methodologies
to build the Next Big Thing, you'll at least have a fairly well-paying and
steady job. 3. Weather's not fantastic. Temperate climates. Warm for its
latitude because of some sort of wind thing. Generally pretty cloudy during
the Spring/Fall, though, due to its proximity to the water. 4. Traffic
sucks. Combine that with the fact that you can only afford to live in the
boonies and you've got a recipe for un-fun. 5. Entertainment is pretty
decent, if you don't mind the traffic it takes to get there. We've got the
Kennedy Center in DC, Nissan Pavillion out west in Warrenton, VA, all sorts
of jazz, bars, etc. and DC is obviously a pretty popular place for artists
to include as part of a national/regional tour. We've got fantastic museums
and art galleries, many of which are free. 6. There's a very good variety
of decent restaurants, and some very good ones. Of course, for any genre X
of food, there's apparently some city Y that produces better X. Oh well. :slight_smile:
7. It's a big, suburban region. You're not going to see any "sense of
belonging" to the DC area, in people. You're not going to find that 'cept
for probably way in the city (where it's urban), or way out (where it's
rural, in which case you'll find the annual Nokesville festival, or
whatever). 8. I may be full of it.

I shut up now.

--

email :: ara [dot] t [dot] howard [at] noaa [dot] gov
phone :: 303.497.6469
Your life dwells amoung the causes of death
Like a lamp standing in a strong breeze. --Nagarjuna

===============================================================================

6

Here's my opinions of the places I've lived in my life, sometimes as a
programmer, other times as just a dude trying to scrape by.

Guam -- Japan's Hawaii. Stay away if you hate giant flying cockroaches
they try to call "palmeto bugs". Go if you want to swim with giant
sun fish just off the Marianas Trench and eat fantastic food. I
learned about 20 ways to eat a damn coconut there.

Maryland -- Uh, it's Maryland. Yeah. Anyway.

Seoul, Korea -- Kick ass place with super cool people. It's fun to
stand on the subway platform and realize that you can spot all the
other westerners because you're the tall ones. People kept calling me
"supaman". Hilarious. Inchon is great. Itaewon was a blast. I
wonder if Just Blues is still around? Best damn blues guitarist
I'd ever seen. Dude played Jimi with his eyes closed.

Tempe, AZ -- Small little town with a kind of hidden tech industry.
Lots of semiconductor plants, and ASU is a pretty nice university.
People there drive like idiots and nobody likes pedestrians. They even
have commercials with the slogan, "Share The Road" telling the bikers
and walkers to get out of the car's way. Summers there are hotter than
Satan's Asshole after eating a gallon of Goan curry.

Bellingham, WA -- Great little town where a smart guy like me (and
maybe you) could go die a quiet little death. Bob Log III has played
there. What more do you need? WWU is a nice little university. Great,
fun people. Watch out for the chlorine plant down the
road. Someday everyone's need to wipe their ass with white toilet
paper will kill all of Bellingham.

Austin, TX -- If you love live music then you *must* move to Austin.
The people there are super nice, very funky, and really pretty. Any
bar on 6th or 4th street will have tons of music in every style. I'd
say the average band playing in Austin is probably good enough to be
signed. My favorites (if they still play) were Mingo Fishtrap and
Cadillac Voodoo Choir. Traffic there is *horrible*. There were
billboards at one time calling all the roads parking lots. It's so
true.

Vancouver, BC -- Gorgeous rivers, oceans, forrests, beaches, and great
food found everywhere. Too bad all the crackheads, meth addicts,
heroin abusers, and obnoxious whiny psuedo-liberals screw it up for
everyone else. The police there are more corrupt than a FAT32
filesystem after a Sasser Worm attack. Check out the "Pickton pig farm"
serial murder case for an example of Police effectiveness. I have to
say that I've lived all over the US and been in some really bad shady
places, and I never felt so threatened and unsafe as I did in
Vancouver. But hey, if you have tons of money you can just go
Snowboarding at Whistler and ignore it all like all the other rich
people living there.

Tacoma, WA -- Used to have the worst gang violence in the US. Now
they've cleaned it up, fired the corrupt police, dumped money into
renovating and saving all the historic hotels, and created a tram that
goes like 4 blocks. It's a start, and Tacoma I think is really poised
to take off. That place will be great as soon as they clear the
prostitutes and crack dealers out of the blocks around the library.
You can buy some fantastic houses there for next to nothing. If you do
work in any of the prison oriented businesses then you can have lots of
work there. Tacoma has more prisons than Santa has hated children on
his list. This is because Tacoma/Pierce County is Seattle/King County's
ashtray.

Portland, OR -- Ok, I didn't really live in Portland but I visited and
damn I wish I had moved there. People in Portland were so damn nice it
was bizarre. I thought I was a sucker in some weird reality show. I
was walking down the street and a homeless guy asked me for some
money. I said, "Sorry." With a shit eating grin he said, "You have a
really nice day man." Another guy heard me playing harmonica and
offered me free food. And who can't love a city that has both the
Santa Rampage *and* Chuck Palahniuk. Anarchy rules!

New York, NY -- And finally, we come to NYC. So far I like NYC, but
mostly for the work that's here. The people are simultaneously great
and the biggest assholes on the planet. People have no problem telling
you exactly what they think, which is great since usually they say it
to the other idiot who's standing on the stairs blocking the world
while he talks on his damn cellphone to make a booty call. It's
incredibly safe and clean for a city with it's population. I'd say NYC
is cleaner and safer than all the cities I mention above, except maybe
Portland. And of course nothing beats walking down the street and
seeing 10 movie stars, 3 hot models, and having them all ignore you.
What an honor. My only warning is that if you aren't really confident
in yourself then people will pick you apart with their fashonista
attitude.

Enjoy!

···

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 07:09:56 +0900 Devin Mullins <twifkak@comcast.net> wrote:

While we seem to be rife with OT threads, I thought I'd throw in an
OT question that's been percolating in my mind for quite a while.

Where do you recommend to live? Feel free to provide just a city
name, or to go into detail. When I say "for a programmer," I'm mainly
referring to the existence of programming jobs, but other aspects,
such as the existence of ?UGs, proximity to nerdy attractions, etc.
could play a part. Also feel free to just tell me some places to look
for ideas, and then tell me to Get to Googlin'. :slight_smile:

7

I live in Kansas City, and it's pretty nice. It could be beautiful,
but the city officials are doing much to help get it back together.
We have more foutains here than any other city in the world, except
Rome, an they really are quite nice. The sports atmosphere is great
(if you're a football or college basketball fan).

Programming wise, we seem to be behind the adoption curve. I worked
for a firm last year that was still developing (new) web apps in ASP.
Some of the web developing firms are run by designers that started out
making static websites and are now looking for more dynamic solutions,
so there is a great oppurtunity there.

Schoolwise Kansas City public schools suck, but the schools in the
suburbs are pretty great. I'm attending the University of Missouri -
Kansas City to get a music degree, and that is pretty good. UMKC is
hit and miss with the other programs, though. Some are good, some are
not.

There is alot of things to do on the weekends, but it'll require some
creativity usually. I don't do the whole social thing, though, so I'm
can't really talk about that.

···

On 9/20/05, Devin Mullins <twifkak@comcast.net> wrote:

Where do you recommend to live? Feel free to provide just a city name,
or to go into detail. When I say "for a programmer," I'm mainly
referring to the existence of programming jobs, but other aspects, such
as the existence of ?UGs, proximity to nerdy attractions, etc. could
play a part. Also feel free to just tell me some places to look for
ideas, and then tell me to Get to Googlin'. :slight_smile:

8

My info is a few years old, but LA used to have a tremendous concentration of software
jobs. It's too big, though, it takes hours to get across the mega-city, and the beach can
be forbiddingly distant.

I loved Seattle Washington for quite a while but it's a bit of a backwater culturally.
But that's okay.

Any place is okay if you have a job you like. If you're religious, consider Jerusalem.
If skiing is your thing consider Vancouver BC.

If you get married and have kids your priorities will change. If you're unemployed for
any length of time you're priorities will change.

Warren Seltzer

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Devin Mullins [mailto:twifkak@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 1:10 AM
To: ruby-talk ML
Subject: [OT] Places for a programmer to live?

While we seem to be rife with OT threads, I thought I'd throw in an OT
question that's been percolating in my mind for quite a while.

Where do you recommend to live? Feel free to provide just a city name,
or to go into detail. When I say "for a programmer," I'm mainly
referring to the existence of programming jobs, but other aspects, such
as the existence of ?UGs, proximity to nerdy attractions, etc. could
play a part. Also feel free to just tell me some places to look for
ideas, and then tell me to Get to Googlin'. :slight_smile:

Obviously, the usual places show up: Silicon Valley, Wash DC (where I am
now), *insert big city here* -- any info you have about why you would or
wouldn't recommend one of these would be appreciated. I'm also looking
for places that are off-the-beaten path (but still accessible, so
Fraser, B.C. is out of the question, sorry) -- Portland, OR and even
Bend, OR seem to be attracting techies, for example. Why? Should I be
interested, too? Why or why not? I have preference towards places in the
US, but if you have hometown pride, you are of course welcome to give it
shoutout. :slight_smile:

For the short term, I'm stuck here earning a living, and for the medium
term, I'm probably going to go where my long-time friends are, in Calif.
(SF? SB? LA? SD? not sure), but I'm trying to plan ahead a little more
than I have in the past, so am hoping to build an arsenal of info. You
guys are the best group I could think to ask.

I'll provide a little about DC, in fairness to y'all, and maybe as a
template.
1. The housing market here is ridiculously expensive. I think it might
be going down a *little* soon, but yikes, it's high.
2. It's probably because high tech jobs are in high supply here. Gov't
contracting is the name of the game, and while you probably won't be
using Agile methodologies to build the Next Big Thing, you'll at least
have a fairly well-paying and steady job.
3. Weather's not fantastic. Temperate climates. Warm for its latitude
because of some sort of wind thing. Generally pretty cloudy during the
Spring/Fall, though, due to its proximity to the water.
4. Traffic sucks. Combine that with the fact that you can only afford to
live in the boonies and you've got a recipe for un-fun.
5. Entertainment is pretty decent, if you don't mind the traffic it
takes to get there. We've got the Kennedy Center in DC, Nissan Pavillion
out west in Warrenton, VA, all sorts of jazz, bars, etc. and DC is
obviously a pretty popular place for artists to include as part of a
national/regional tour. We've got fantastic museums and art galleries,
many of which are free.
6. There's a very good variety of decent restaurants, and some very good
ones. Of course, for any genre X of food, there's apparently some city Y
that produces better X. Oh well. :slight_smile:
7. It's a big, suburban region. You're not going to see any "sense of
belonging" to the DC area, in people. You're not going to find that
'cept for probably way in the city (where it's urban), or way out (where
it's rural, in which case you'll find the annual Nokesville festival, or
whatever).
8. I may be full of it.

I shut up now.

Thanks,
Devin

9

<snip/>

Franfurt / Main in Germany seems a pretty good match:

I'll provide a little about DC, in fairness to y'all, and maybe as a
template.
1. The housing market here is ridiculously expensive. I think it might
be going down a *little* soon, but yikes, it's high.

Same there although in Germany it's more common to rent instead of buying.

2. It's probably because high tech jobs are in high supply here. Gov't
contracting is the name of the game, and while you probably won't be
using Agile methodologies to build the Next Big Thing, you'll at least
have a fairly well-paying and steady job.

SAP is around the corner and there are a lot of banks - a lot jobs with good pay.

3. Weather's not fantastic. Temperate climates. Warm for its latitude
because of some sort of wind thing. Generally pretty cloudy during the
Spring/Fall, though, due to its proximity to the water.

Weather is quite ok I'd say: it's fairly friendly (certainly more friendly than in Paderborn where I live) and you have a *lot* nice countryside around it. If you love motorcycling that's definitely a plus.

4. Traffic sucks. Combine that with the fact that you can only afford
to live in the boonies and you've got a recipe for un-fun.

Public transportation is above average - and you're close to the biggest airport in Germany (and one of the biggest in Europe I believe).

5. Entertainment is pretty decent, if you don't mind the traffic it
takes to get there. We've got the Kennedy Center in DC, Nissan
Pavillion out west in Warrenton, VA, all sorts of jazz, bars, etc.
and DC is obviously a pretty popular place for artists to include as
part of a national/regional tour. We've got fantastic museums and art
galleries, many of which are free.

There's a lot of cultural activities going on (Staatsoper, fairs of all kinds) and also subcultural activities (I'm going to a trash film festival each year for example).

6. There's a very good variety of decent restaurants, and some very
good ones. Of course, for any genre X of food, there's apparently
some city Y that produces better X. Oh well. :slight_smile:

I would believe that you got plenty of good restaurants although I'm no expert for Frankfurt.

7. It's a big, suburban region. You're not going to see any "sense of
belonging" to the DC area, in people. You're not going to find that
'cept for probably way in the city (where it's urban), or way out
(where it's rural, in which case you'll find the annual Nokesville
festival, or whatever).

Same there. Plus there's a huge US community there because of the Army (although I believe this is going to change a bit in the future).

8. I may be full of it.

Unlikely (yet). :slight_smile:

Kind regards

    robert

···

Devin Mullins <twifkak@comcast.net> wrote:

10

Devin Mullins wrote:

···

While we seem to be rife with OT threads, I thought I'd throw in an OT
question that's been percolating in my mind for quite a while.

Where do you recommend to live? Feel free to provide just a city name,
or to go into detail. When I say "for a programmer," I'm mainly
referring to the existence of programming jobs, but other aspects, such
as the existence of ?UGs, proximity to nerdy attractions, etc. could
play a part. Also feel free to just tell me some places to look for
ideas, and then tell me to Get to Googlin'. :slight_smile:

Obviously, the usual places show up: Silicon Valley, Wash DC (where I am
now), *insert big city here* -- any info you have about why you would or
wouldn't recommend one of these would be appreciated. I'm also looking
for places that are off-the-beaten path (but still accessible, so
Fraser, B.C. is out of the question, sorry) -- Portland, OR and even
Bend, OR seem to be attracting techies, for example. Why? Should I be
interested, too? Why or why not? I have preference towards places in the
US, but if you have hometown pride, you are of course welcome to give it
shoutout. :slight_smile:

For the short term, I'm stuck here earning a living, and for the medium
term, I'm probably going to go where my long-time friends are, in Calif.
(SF? SB? LA? SD? not sure), but I'm trying to plan ahead a little more
than I have in the past, so am hoping to build an arsenal of info. You
guys are the best group I could think to ask.

I'll provide a little about DC, in fairness to y'all, and maybe as a
template.
1. The housing market here is ridiculously expensive. I think it might
be going down a *little* soon, but yikes, it's high.
2. It's probably because high tech jobs are in high supply here. Gov't
contracting is the name of the game, and while you probably won't be
using Agile methodologies to build the Next Big Thing, you'll at least
have a fairly well-paying and steady job.
3. Weather's not fantastic. Temperate climates. Warm for its latitude
because of some sort of wind thing. Generally pretty cloudy during the
Spring/Fall, though, due to its proximity to the water.
4. Traffic sucks. Combine that with the fact that you can only afford to
live in the boonies and you've got a recipe for un-fun.
5. Entertainment is pretty decent, if you don't mind the traffic it
takes to get there. We've got the Kennedy Center in DC, Nissan Pavillion
out west in Warrenton, VA, all sorts of jazz, bars, etc. and DC is
obviously a pretty popular place for artists to include as part of a
national/regional tour. We've got fantastic museums and art galleries,
many of which are free.
6. There's a very good variety of decent restaurants, and some very good
ones. Of course, for any genre X of food, there's apparently some city Y
that produces better X. Oh well. :slight_smile:
7. It's a big, suburban region. You're not going to see any "sense of
belonging" to the DC area, in people. You're not going to find that
'cept for probably way in the city (where it's urban), or way out (where
it's rural, in which case you'll find the annual Nokesville festival, or
whatever).
8. I may be full of it.

I shut up now.

Thanks,
Devin

11

That sounds like Portland, Oregon! (except for the summer time.. when it
does get nice out, it's when the programmers walk outside and see the
Sun)

The sun will soon be hiding itself in Portland again and all the
programmers will go back inside and wait until next year to come out
again. :slight_smile:

-Robby

···

On Wed, 2005-09-21 at 07:15 +0900, Andrew Stuart wrote:

A programmer should live in a dark room in a city with a cool climate to
avoid feeling any obligation to go outside.
There should be a fridge close to hand and a cafe over the road.
There should be a fast Internet connection and a reliable power supply.
The city itself is irrelevant.

--
/******************************************************
* Robby Russell, Owner.Developer.Geek
* PLANET ARGON, Open Source Solutions & Web Hosting
* Portland, Oregon | p: 503.351.4730 | f: 815.642.4068
* www.planetargon.com | www.robbyonrails.com
*******************************************************/

12

IMHO, Denver was a nice place for a programmer to live. Tech employment
market is pretty strong. Climate is nice. The downtown Denver city is a
nice place to visit or to work. Public transportation is adequate, though
IMHO one does really need a car in Denver, too, unless one chooses to live
downtown.

Denver has a lot to recommend it.

I've always wondered, though. If I had jobs to offer, could I attract
programmers to SE Wyoming? Winter climate is, well, not so nice as Denver's,
but the cost of living is very low, and life is, generally, good, and Denver
is an easy drive for the ammenities of the city.

Kirk Haines

···

On Tuesday 20 September 2005 4:46 pm, James Britt wrote:

You really do need a car to get anyplace here, and there seems to be
little sense of spontaneity. I'm a born and raised New Yawker, and I
deeply miss the street life, the ability to hop on the bus or subway and
just go someplace fast, easy, and cheap, or the option to walk and walk
for miles, with endless stimulation. So, in comparison, Phoenix seems
terribly isolated and sterile.

13

Andrew Stuart wrote:

A programmer should live in a dark room in a city with a cool climate to
avoid feeling any obligation to go outside.
There should be a fridge close to hand and a cafe over the road.
There should be a fast Internet connection and a reliable power supply.
The city itself is irrelevant.

Tampere, Oulu and Helsinki in Finland.
Difference between summer and winter here is that summertime it's raining water (and sometimes snow) and in wintertime it's raining's snow (and sometimes water).

Br, Hemis the Finn

14

In article <20050920234057.7ecb83b7.zedshaw@zedshaw.com>,

Tempe, AZ -- Small little town with a kind of hidden tech industry.
Lots of semiconductor plants, and ASU is a pretty nice university.
People there drive like idiots and nobody likes pedestrians. They even
have commercials with the slogan, "Share The Road" telling the bikers
and walkers to get out of the car's way. Summers there are hotter than
Satan's Asshole after eating a gallon of Goan curry.

Bellingham, WA -- Great little town where a smart guy like me (and
maybe you) could go die a quiet little death. Bob Log III has played
there. What more do you need? WWU is a nice little university. Great,
fun people. Watch out for the chlorine plant down the
road. Someday everyone's need to wipe their ass with white toilet
paper will kill all of Bellingham.

Death Cab for Cutie is from Bellingham, correct?

Vancouver, BC -- Gorgeous rivers, oceans, forrests, beaches, and great
food found everywhere. Too bad all the crackheads, meth addicts,
heroin abusers, and obnoxious whiny psuedo-liberals screw it up for
everyone else. The police there are more corrupt than a FAT32
filesystem after a Sasser Worm attack. Check out the "Pickton pig farm"
serial murder case for an example of Police effectiveness. I have to
say that I've lived all over the US and been in some really bad shady
places, and I never felt so threatened and unsafe as I did in
Vancouver. But hey, if you have tons of money you can just go
Snowboarding at Whistler and ignore it all like all the other rich
people living there.

I've only visited Van, BC a couple of times. I was very favorably impressed.
Stayed in the "Little Italy" section for a few days - old Italian men arguing
with each other out in front of nice sidewalk cafes; it was very autentico,
felt like I was really in Italy there for a minute.

>

Tacoma, WA -- Used to have the worst gang violence in the US. Now
they've cleaned it up, fired the corrupt police, dumped money into
renovating and saving all the historic hotels, and created a tram that
goes like 4 blocks. It's a start, and Tacoma I think is really poised
to take off. That place will be great as soon as they clear the
prostitutes and crack dealers out of the blocks around the library.
You can buy some fantastic houses there for next to nothing. If you do
work in any of the prison oriented businesses then you can have lots of
work there. Tacoma has more prisons than Santa has hated children on
his list. This is because Tacoma/Pierce County is Seattle/King County's
ashtray.

I hear they've got a nice glass museum now.

Portland, OR -- Ok, I didn't really live in Portland but I visited and
damn I wish I had moved there. People in Portland were so damn nice it
was bizarre. I thought I was a sucker in some weird reality show. I
was walking down the street and a homeless guy asked me for some
money. I said, "Sorry." With a shit eating grin he said, "You have a
really nice day man." Another guy heard me playing harmonica and
offered me free food. And who can't love a city that has both the
Santa Rampage *and* Chuck Palahniuk. Anarchy rules!

Don't forget the Zoo Bombers. And those guys who modify their bikes in
really bizarre ways and use them for jousting.

Liked your colorful descriptions of all these places....

Phil

···

Zed A. Shaw <zedshaw@zedshaw.com> wrote:

15

Wooaahh now. You want to stay away from Seattle. Really. Complete
hell-scape.

These aren't the 'droids you're looking for.

I'm seriously.

Phil Tomson wrote:

···

OK, I'm in Portland and you mentioned Portand, so here goes:
Why are all the techies moving to Portland, OR? A few reasons:
1) Lots of UGs. UGs for languages (we have a really good one in pdx.rb, see:
http://pdxruby.org ), UGs for things like Agile programming, etc. And lots
of people are active in them.
2) OSDL&Linus are here now. This is a very Open Source friendly place. The
Governor has even set up some sort of open source booster office in
Beaverton. More O'Reilly authors per-capita than any other US city.
3) The Weather: yes really. From about mid-June through about mid-October I
think this part of the country (and I'll include Seattle in this) has THE
best weather in the country. Not too hot. Not humid. Especially right now,
we have 70 to 75 degree sunny days (it might rain 1 day out of 7 in
September). OK, from mid-October till mid-June it's gray and gloomy, but hey
you've got to get some work done sometime, right? And that's what all the
coffee shops are for.
4) Scenery & stuff to do: Mt. St. Helens is about an hour away, the Columbia
Gorge is close, Crater Lake is about 4 hours away. One of the most scenic
coastlines in the world is 1.5 hours away. Seattle is 3 hours away and
Vancouver BC is about 6 hours away (by car).
5) cost of living (while rising) is still lower than the other major
West-Coast cities (LA, SF, Seattle).
6) Very good public transportation system. Almost as good as some European
cities. Probably one of the best in the US.

... as far as jobs go, things were pretty terrible back in 2002-2004, but
much better now. I'm noticing a trend lately that a lot of people seems to
be starting their own businesses here (as opposed to working for a company).
If you are into the big company thing then Intel has a huge presence here
(15,000 employees - their largest site in the world) and Nike is based here
as well.

16

Crikey mate. I reckon Queensland, crocs 'n all is the best place to do
IT or anything for that matter.

In Australia most of the IT jobs are in Sydney, Melboune and oh! yes I
nearly forgot, Canberra (the capital, half way between the afore
mentioned cities). Money is good in these cities but they are expensive
too.

But I'd recommend Brisbane, Queensland.

Weather's fantastic. Sub Tropical (shorts all year round if you like
exept int the morning and night time in winter).
Great fishing, surfing etc. Close to the water, Gold Coast south,
Sunshine Coast north both within 1-1.5hr drive.
Plenty of jobs for Govt. Utilities & etc.
There is public transport available. They have lately started a trial
24 train service (30 years late I think).
We have international & local talent to entertain you.
We have food both good and bad.
You might get to see the Crock Hunter too. His zoo is just up the road,
so is Cairns & The Great Barrier Reef, North Queensland and tropical
rainforests.

You get better money & opportunities in Sydney etc, but the it actually
gets cold down there in winter and why live in Australia and have to be
cold.

Also IT types are look favourably upon in visa applications in areas
that there is a 'skill shortage'.

Best move my mum and dad ever made was emigrating here from the UK in
1971. Had to discover Queensland myself though as we went straight to
Adelaide in South Australia.

Don't see much Ruby happening in the jobs market at the moment.

trying http://www.jobnet.com.au 's search: skill => 'ruby' == nil
ditto skill => 'rails' and that was an Australia wide search too.

Paul.

17

Interesting... I lived in Manassas for a couple years (in a former
life), and Rich Kilmer lives pretty close to there as well. I wonder
if there is a Ruby-based pattern forming here... :wink:

Curt

···

On 9/20/05, James Britt <james_b@neurogami.com> wrote:

I spent a few months of winter in Manassas some years ago. Not really
bad. Less snow than NYC at least. More snow than Phoenix.

18

In article <1127255154.26153.198.camel@linus>,

···

Robby Russell <robby.lists@planetargon.com> wrote:

On Wed, 2005-09-21 at 07:15 +0900, Andrew Stuart wrote:

A programmer should live in a dark room in a city with a cool climate to
avoid feeling any obligation to go outside.
There should be a fridge close to hand and a cafe over the road.
There should be a fast Internet connection and a reliable power supply.
The city itself is irrelevant.

That sounds like Portland, Oregon! (except for the summer time.. when it
does get nice out, it's when the programmers walk outside and see the
Sun)

The sun will soon be hiding itself in Portland again and all the
programmers will go back inside and wait until next year to come out
again. :slight_smile:

And we'll have 6 to 8 months to get a lot of work done :wink:

Phil

19

Don't come to Hull, UK. It is
officialy<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4136342.stm&gt;the worst place to
live in the UK. (my office is just off camera on the left
of the picture on the top. hmm, muddy).
Anyone have any suggestions for Europeans?

Does anyone have any suggestions for us Europeans

···

On 9/21/05, Hemis <hemulaattori@invalid.yahoo.com> wrote:

Andrew Stuart wrote:
> A programmer should live in a dark room in a city with a cool climate to
> avoid feeling any obligation to go outside.
> There should be a fridge close to hand and a cafe over the road.
> There should be a fast Internet connection and a reliable power supply.
> The city itself is irrelevant.
>

Tampere, Oulu and Helsinki in Finland.
Difference between summer and winter here is that summertime it's
raining water (and sometimes snow) and in wintertime it's raining's snow
(and sometimes water).

Br, Hemis the Finn

20

I agree. :stuck_out_tongue: