Ruby for my new business?

ruby-talk
1

Hello list. I am in the process of starting a new business venture in South
Florida. My partners are handling the business and financial aspects
(product development, initial funding, etc) and they've asked me to be in
charge of the technical aspects. The company is primarily offering a
service; software is only the icing on the cake. But I do feel that it could
make the difference between barely squeezing out a living, or large success.

So, I am expected to make nearly all of the technology decisions. My
background is in javascript. I've been using it to write server-side ASP
pages and client side DHTML for 6 years now. While many would scoff at the
idea of professional software being written in javascript, it is a very
dynamic, agile language and has served me quite well. But when I found Ruby,
I almost instantly fell in love. It almost felt as if Matz looked at my top
ten language features list and implemented eight or nine of them.

I would LOVE to use Ruby for this new venture; the agility and efficiency it
will provide will be vital to our success. But, my biggest fear is that,
when I need to hire help (probably two more programmers in the next six to
eight months), I will be unable to find experienced Ruby practitioners. I am
familiar with the "Python Paradox" and I agree with the concepts behind it,
I am just wildly ignorant of the market conditions down here in South
Florida.

Most likely, I would have to have on-site programmers (I don't know that I
would have success in convincing my partners otherwise). When I start
searching for help in six to eight months, will I be able to find two or
more programmers in a timely manner (say, a month or so from when I begin
searching)? Have you had trouble finding Ruby programmers? Have you had any
luck enticing ruby hackers to relocate to your area?

My apologies for the long message.

Thanks so much,
Jared Nuzzolillo

2

I understand software will play an important role!

Good luck!!

Francis

3

Jared Nuzzolillo wrote:

Hello list. I am in the process of starting a new business venture in South Florida. My partners are handling the business and financial aspects (product development, initial funding, etc) and they've asked me to be in charge of the technical aspects. The company is primarily offering a service; software is only the icing on the cake. But I do feel that it could make the difference between barely squeezing out a living, or large success.

So, I am expected to make nearly all of the technology decisions. My background is in javascript. I've been using it to write server-side ASP pages and client side DHTML for 6 years now. While many would scoff at the idea of professional software being written in javascript, it is a very dynamic, agile language and has served me quite well.

And many would agree with your approval of JavaScript. It has suffered from a bazillion poor examples and a forest of bad books.

But when I found Ruby, I almost instantly fell in love. It almost felt as if Matz looked at my top ten language features list and implemented eight or nine of them.

I would LOVE to use Ruby for this new venture; the agility and efficiency it will provide will be vital to our success. But, my biggest fear is that, when I need to hire help (probably two more programmers in the next six to eight months), I will be unable to find experienced Ruby practitioners. I am familiar with the "Python Paradox" and I agree with the concepts behind it, I am just wildly ignorant of the market conditions down here in South Florida.

I think you'd be surprised. But, if you have doubts, design a small, relatively inexpensive project, and advertise for Ruby developers, and see how it goes. Consider it the cost of market research and product planning.

If you cannot find people, or they are of poor quality or of a disagreeable nature, then reconsider.

If there are any colleges near you, see if they have CS or EE departments and poke around there. You only need one or two smart people.

James

···

--

http://www.ruby-doc.org - The Ruby Documentation Site
http://www.rubyxml.com - News, Articles, and Listings for Ruby & XML
http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys

4

pages and client side DHTML for 6 years now. While many would scoff at the
idea of professional software being written in javascript, it is a very
dynamic, agile language and has served me quite well. But when I found
Ruby, I almost instantly fell in love. It almost felt as if Matz looked at
my top ten language features list and implemented eight or nine of them.

If you haven't seen it, you should take a look at ruby.js. It's a very
interesting implementation of a chunk of Ruby's core classes in Javascript.
Using it is almost like writing Ruby in JS. And even if one does nothing
more than look at it, it is educational.

I would LOVE to use Ruby for this new venture; the agility and efficiency
it will provide will be vital to our success. But, my biggest fear is that,
when I need to hire help (probably two more programmers in the next six to
eight months), I will be unable to find experienced Ruby practitioners. I
am familiar with the "Python Paradox" and I agree with the concepts behind
it, I am just wildly ignorant of the market conditions down here in South
Florida.

Put some feelers out locally and see what kind of response you get. Find a
small project and advertise for people. Ruby is currently seeing a lot of
exposure, and the number of people who consider themselves Ruby programmers
is growing daily. That number will be much higher in 8 months than it is
today, I have no doubt, but without spending a lot of money, you and your
company should be able to get some idea of what sort of base you're starting
with.

Most likely, I would have to have on-site programmers (I don't know that I
would have success in convincing my partners otherwise). When I start
searching for help in six to eight months, will I be able to find two or
more programmers in a timely manner (say, a month or so from when I begin
searching)? Have you had trouble finding Ruby programmers? Have you had any
luck enticing ruby hackers to relocate to your area?

It may be a difficult sell, but having worked for many, many years in various
sorts of telecommuting positions, it can work well with the right people. I
do contract work now, and while travel is an option, I've found that I can do
almost everything that I need to do via telephone and internet. So while it
may be a tough sell to your partners, I wouldn't rule it out completely. It
can work well.

As for entincing ruby hackers to relocate, I think that most people's
experience in that area is still too new. Except for small, occasional
examples, Ruby does not have a lot of history as a mainstream language in
primary use by companies, especially those offering relocation as part of
their compensation package.

Given a good enough job, though, Ruby programmers are just like anyone else;
some of them will certainly relocate for a good job.

Kirk Haines

···

On Tuesday 16 August 2005 8:45 am, Jared Nuzzolillo wrote:

5

We need more people like you Jared! Asking fellow developers what
their thoughts are, basing business decisions off of their responses.
Glad to see that actually happens in some companies.

I would gladly be a remote ruby developer for you -- there's not much
else to do in Iowa anyway. :slight_smile:

Just out of curiosity, what is the one or two that Matz missed out of the ten?

···

On 8/16/05, Jared Nuzzolillo <onceuponapriori@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello list. I am in the process of starting a new business venture in South
Florida. My partners are handling the business and financial aspects
(product development, initial funding, etc) and they've asked me to be in
charge of the technical aspects. The company is primarily offering a
service; software is only the icing on the cake. But I do feel that it could
make the difference between barely squeezing out a living, or large success.

So, I am expected to make nearly all of the technology decisions. My
background is in javascript. I've been using it to write server-side ASP
pages and client side DHTML for 6 years now. While many would scoff at the
idea of professional software being written in javascript, it is a very
dynamic, agile language and has served me quite well. But when I found Ruby,
I almost instantly fell in love. It almost felt as if Matz looked at my top
ten language features list and implemented eight or nine of them.

I would LOVE to use Ruby for this new venture; the agility and efficiency it
will provide will be vital to our success. But, my biggest fear is that,
when I need to hire help (probably two more programmers in the next six to
eight months), I will be unable to find experienced Ruby practitioners. I am
familiar with the "Python Paradox" and I agree with the concepts behind it,
I am just wildly ignorant of the market conditions down here in South
Florida.

Most likely, I would have to have on-site programmers (I don't know that I
would have success in convincing my partners otherwise). When I start
searching for help in six to eight months, will I be able to find two or
more programmers in a timely manner (say, a month or so from when I begin
searching)? Have you had trouble finding Ruby programmers? Have you had any
luck enticing ruby hackers to relocate to your area?

My apologies for the long message.

Thanks so much,
Jared Nuzzolillo

--
Brock Weaver
http://www.circaware.com

6

Jared Nuzzolillo said:

Hello list. I am in the process of starting a new business venture in
South Florida.

[snip]

I would LOVE to use Ruby for this new venture; the agility and
efficiency it will provide will be vital to our success. But, my
biggest fear is that, when I need to hire help (probably two more
programmers in the next six to eight months), I will be unable to find
experienced Ruby practitioners. I am familiar with the "Python
Paradox" and I agree with the concepts behind it, I am just wildly
ignorant of the market conditions down here in South Florida.

I suspect I'm one of the few Ruby programmers in South Florida, at least
of the "old guard", i.e. before the recent growth we have seen from Rails.
Back in 2001 when I went to the first RubyConf, I think I was the only
person who drove (it was in Tampa, FL.) Someone did start a South Florida
Ruby Meetup Group (on meetup.com) at some point (with just himself as a
member when I saw it), but it seems to be gone now. I think that person
was in Ft Lauderdale (I live in Boynton Beach, near West Palm Beach.)

One interesting note is that despite me learning about Ruby in 2001, I'm
still doing Java professionally (though I hope to change that soon.) There
just weren't Ruby jobs before the recent growth we have had (which is
mostly thanks to Rails.) So you must consider the chicken and egg sort of
problem we have here: until there are a good selection of Ruby jobs, there
won't be a good selection of Ruby programmers. There just aren't that many
hobbyists like myself who will become skilled with something like Ruby
just for fun (and even in my case I had a few years where I pretty much
dropped out of the Ruby community.)

Anyhow, unless some people speak up on this list who also live here, I
think the South Florida Ruby programmer population is pretty small. But
despite that, I still think you are on the right track in wanting to use
Ruby, even if the local population of programmers is small. I think being
an early adopter is an advantage in this case, and either way you can help
solve that chicken and egg problem I mentioned above.

Most likely, I would have to have on-site programmers (I don't know
that I would have success in convincing my partners otherwise). When I
start searching for help in six to eight months, will I be able to
find two or more programmers in a timely manner (say, a month or so
from when I begin searching)? Have you had trouble finding Ruby
programmers? Have you had any luck enticing ruby hackers to relocate
to your area?

While it is certainly nice to have local talent, I think telecommuting is
perfectly fine, especially if Ruby is the main development language. So as
others have said, I would try to sell that to your partners.

Hmmm, if you have a six to eight month time frame, maybe is now the time
for me to start teaching some South Florida Ruby seminars, hehehe. I could
get you some nicely trained Ruby programmers if I did that :slight_smile:

Regarding relocating, the problem we have with this area is partially the
whole hurricane thing, like Phil Thompson mentioned, but more importantly
is the cost of housing. As you probably know it has been skyrocketing,
which can make people hesitant to move unless they are coming from even
more expensive markets. If a software developer making a good salary can
barely afford a house, something is wrong, but that is a entire different
discussion which I won't go into here.

Finally as Daniel Nugent mentioned, any good programmer should be able to
pick up a new language fairly quickly, and I think Ruby in particular is
pretty easy to pick up.

So, to conclude, I would recommend continuing with your plan to use Ruby,
as the potential problems with that are all quite solvable.

Ryan

7

Yes, I agree. While I do a lot of local contracting work, I just got through completing a Ruby project for a company out east, all by telecommuting. It went very well in my opinion. We completed a small but very complex project in about 15 hours of work.

James Edward Gray II

···

On Aug 16, 2005, at 10:46 AM, Kirk Haines wrote:

It may be a difficult sell, but having worked for many, many years in various
sorts of telecommuting positions, it can work well with the right people.

8

Brock,

Bear in mind that my viewpoints have evolved since I crafted my list. At the
time, I associated a languages flexibility with it's inheritance model: i.e.,
languages with prototype-based inheritance always seemed far more flexible
to me. Ruby has since proved that class-based languages can be just as
flexible and expressive as prototype-based languages, but I still feel that
prototype-based languages have a certain conceptual elegance that is lacking
in class-based alternatives. The other issues are really minor, but to put
them briefly: 1) I really miss the object literal syntax from javascript 2)
I love the way Io ( http://www.iolanguage.com/ ) allows you to grab a hold
of the message tree and modify, remove or defer nodes of it at will 3) I
love the transparent futures of Io...

Mind you, I've considered switching to Io, but I haven't used it enough to
really know whether the differences would make it worthwhile. Somehow, I
doubt it; there is just too much to love about Ruby, including this amazing
community.

Thanks,
Jared

···

On 8/16/05, Brock Weaver <brockweaver@gmail.com> wrote:

We need more people like you Jared! Asking fellow developers what
their thoughts are, basing business decisions off of their responses.
Glad to see that actually happens in some companies.

I would gladly be a remote ruby developer for you -- there's not much
else to do in Iowa anyway. :slight_smile:

Just out of curiosity, what is the one or two that Matz missed out of the
ten?

9

Brock,

Bear in mind that my viewpoints have evolved considerably since I crafted my
list. At the time, I associated a language's flexibility with its
inheritance model: i.e., languages with prototype-based inheritance always
seemed far more flexible to me. Ruby has since proved that class-based
languages can be just as flexible and expressive as prototype-based
languages, but I still feel that prototype-based languages have a certain
conceptual simplicity and elegance that is lacking in class-based
alternatives.

The other issues are really minor, but to put them briefly:

1) I really miss the object literal syntax from javascript
2) I love the way Io (http://www.iolanguage.com/\) allows you to grab a hold
of the message tree and modify, remove or defer nodes of it at will
3) I love the transparent futures of Io...

Of course, I have considered switching to Io, but Ruby somehow seems more
practical. There is just too much to love about Ruby, including this amazing
community.

Thanks,
Jared

···

On 8/16/05, Brock Weaver <brockweaver@gmail.com> wrote:

We need more people like you Jared! Asking fellow developers what
their thoughts are, basing business decisions off of their responses.
Glad to see that actually happens in some companies.

I would gladly be a remote ruby developer for you -- there's not much
else to do in Iowa anyway. :slight_smile:

Just out of curiosity, what is the one or two that Matz missed out of the
ten?

10

In article <200508160946.51724.khaines@enigo.com>,

I would LOVE to use Ruby for this new venture; the agility and efficiency
it will provide will be vital to our success. But, my biggest fear is that,
when I need to hire help (probably two more programmers in the next six to
eight months), I will be unable to find experienced Ruby practitioners. I
am familiar with the "Python Paradox" and I agree with the concepts behind
it, I am just wildly ignorant of the market conditions down here in South
Florida.

Most likely, I would have to have on-site programmers (I don't know that I
would have success in convincing my partners otherwise). When I start
searching for help in six to eight months, will I be able to find two or
more programmers in a timely manner (say, a month or so from when I begin
searching)? Have you had trouble finding Ruby programmers? Have you had any
luck enticing ruby hackers to relocate to your area?

It may be a difficult sell, but having worked for many, many years in various
sorts of telecommuting positions, it can work well with the right people. I
do contract work now, and while travel is an option, I've found that I can do
almost everything that I need to do via telephone and internet. So while it
may be a tough sell to your partners, I wouldn't rule it out completely. It
can work well.

As for entincing ruby hackers to relocate, I think that most people's
experience in that area is still too new. Except for small, occasional
examples, Ruby does not have a lot of history as a mainstream language in
primary use by companies, especially those offering relocation as part of
their compensation package.

Given a good enough job, though, Ruby programmers are just like anyone else;
some of them will certainly relocate for a good job.

Since this is South Florida we're talking about, I suspect that if you
advertise in the December to February timeframe you'll find lots of eager
takers. However, advertising right now (near the height of hurricane
season) may not be as fruitful. Every new hurricane that forms out there
will offer too much negative publicity for your area.

Yes, South Florida sounds enticing - IF I could live there from November
through May and spend the rest of the year somewhere else :wink:

Phil

···

Kirk Haines <khaines@enigo.com> wrote:

On Tuesday 16 August 2005 8:45 am, Jared Nuzzolillo wrote:

11

All, thanks again! All of your advice is very much appreciated. Feel free to
share more.

Ryan,

That was my meetup group :slight_smile: ! No one ever joined and they started charging
me money to have it so I closed it down.

Someone contacted me off-list that lives in Miami and would be willing
to consider
working full-time as a Ruby programmer. So the pool must not be as dry as I
originally feared it might be.

I would love to attend anything regarding Ruby that you might want to do.
I'd be willing to assist in any way. I've been upset that there isn't a
South Florida Ruby User group for quite some time now. Let me know if you'd
like to try to put something together. Failing that, it is nice to know that
a Ruby guru is not too far away should I need some help! :slight_smile:

Between hurricanes and overpricing, it would be hard to convince someone to
move out here. I agree that a good programmer can pick up Ruby quickly and
be efficient with it. I think I could probably convince my partners that an
expert programmer coming from another language could get up to speed in a
few weeks. I just hope they are willing to trust me on this. I think I will
at least try to take the risk and push the telecommuting option as an
'insurance policy'.

Thanks,
Jared Nuzzolillo

···

On 8/16/05, Ryan Leavengood <mrcode@netrox.net> wrote:

Jared Nuzzolillo said:
[snip]Someone did start a South Florida
Ruby Meetup Group (on meetup.com <http://meetup.com>) at some point (with
just himself as a
member when I saw it), but it seems to be gone now. I think that person
was in Ft Lauderdale (I live in Boynton Beach, near West Palm Beach.)
[snip]
Anyhow, unless some people speak up on this list who also live here, I
think the South Florida Ruby programmer population is pretty small. But
despite that, I still think you are on the right track in wanting to use
Ruby, even if the local population of programmers is small. I think being
an early adopter is an advantage in this case, and either way you can help
solve that chicken and egg problem I mentioned above.
[snip]
While it is certainly nice to have local talent, I think telecommuting is
perfectly fine, especially if Ruby is the main development language. So as
others have said, I would try to sell that to your partners.

Hmmm, if you have a six to eight month time frame, maybe is now the time
for me to start teaching some South Florida Ruby seminars, hehehe. I could
get you some nicely trained Ruby programmers if I did that :slight_smile:

Regarding relocating, the problem we have with this area is partially the
whole hurricane thing, like Phil Thompson mentioned, but more importantly
is the cost of housing. As you probably know it has been skyrocketing,
which can make people hesitant to move unless they are coming from even
more expensive markets. If a software developer making a good salary can
barely afford a house, something is wrong, but that is a entire different
discussion which I won't go into here.

Finally as Daniel Nugent mentioned, any good programmer should be able to
pick up a new language fairly quickly, and I think Ruby in particular is
pretty easy to pick up.

[snip]Ryan

12

Ryan Leavengood wrote:

I suspect I'm one of the few Ruby programmers in South Florida, at least
of the "old guard", i.e. before the recent growth we have seen from Rails

Ditto. Well, except that I'm in Central Florida (W. Melbourne)

T.

13

Thank you for all of your comments so far. I am reading and considering all
of your advice. Please, do continue to share.

14

I'm in no ways any sort of authority on this subject or have any
experience hiring Coders/Developers/Programmers/Whatever, but why is
it specifically important that they have Ruby knowledge or experience
before hiring them to the job?

Any codemonkey worth his salt can pick up a new language in about a
month and be pretty productive in it by the end of the next month. I
understand that the margins are pretty narrow on new companies, but
it'd seem to me that a better hiring strategy in the long term would
be to hire really great guys and then ask them to adapt to your
technology.

···

On 8/16/05, Phil Tomson <ptkwt@aracnet.com> wrote:

In article <200508160946.51724.khaines@enigo.com>,
Kirk Haines <khaines@enigo.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday 16 August 2005 8:45 am, Jared Nuzzolillo wrote:
>
>
>> I would LOVE to use Ruby for this new venture; the agility and efficiency
>> it will provide will be vital to our success. But, my biggest fear is that,
>> when I need to hire help (probably two more programmers in the next six to
>> eight months), I will be unable to find experienced Ruby practitioners. I
>> am familiar with the "Python Paradox" and I agree with the concepts behind
>> it, I am just wildly ignorant of the market conditions down here in South
>> Florida.
>
>> Most likely, I would have to have on-site programmers (I don't know that I
>> would have success in convincing my partners otherwise). When I start
>> searching for help in six to eight months, will I be able to find two or
>> more programmers in a timely manner (say, a month or so from when I begin
>> searching)? Have you had trouble finding Ruby programmers? Have you had any
>> luck enticing ruby hackers to relocate to your area?
>
>It may be a difficult sell, but having worked for many, many years in various
>sorts of telecommuting positions, it can work well with the right people. I
>do contract work now, and while travel is an option, I've found that I can do
>almost everything that I need to do via telephone and internet. So while it
>may be a tough sell to your partners, I wouldn't rule it out completely. It
>can work well.
>
>As for entincing ruby hackers to relocate, I think that most people's
>experience in that area is still too new. Except for small, occasional
>examples, Ruby does not have a lot of history as a mainstream language in
>primary use by companies, especially those offering relocation as part of
>their compensation package.
>
>Given a good enough job, though, Ruby programmers are just like anyone else;
>some of them will certainly relocate for a good job.

Since this is South Florida we're talking about, I suspect that if you
advertise in the December to February timeframe you'll find lots of eager
takers. However, advertising right now (near the height of hurricane
season) may not be as fruitful. Every new hurricane that forms out there
will offer too much negative publicity for your area.

Yes, South Florida sounds enticing - IF I could live there from November
through May and spend the rest of the year somewhere else :wink:

Phil

--
-Dan Nugent

15

...but I still feel that prototype-based languages have a certain conceptual elegance that is lacking in class-based alternatives.

It's interesting the part western philosophy played in language design, I tend to agree with you about the conceptual nature of class vs prototype inheritance, but class based inheritance is easier for me to use, easier to lay out in my mind.

Here's an interesting read on the subject:
http://www.helsinki.fi/~jppesone/papers/kandi.html

Summary:
From an ontological point of view the prototype-based languages win. There is little evidence of a strange platonic realm of categories, but class-based languages don't necessarily have to be realist in their ontology - a language can include universals and "Santa Claus" without committing to realism (von Wrigth 1972, 198). Unless the prototype-based languages include some notion of categories they lack something psychologically very important: the capacity of categorization.

-Jeff

16

Well, I discussed it with my partners. We are going to use Ruby and Ruby on
Rails as our primary programming platform! I appreciate all of your advice
and encouragement; I may have made a poor decision otherwise!

Thanks,
Jared Nuzzolillo

17

I still think remote work is much better.
It's cheaper, you have a far larger pool of telent (the whole world)
and you can do it on a contract basis.

If I were you I would try REALLY HARD at trying to sell the remote work thing.

···

--
My Blog: http://27degrees.blogspot.org

18

Very interesting. Thanks for the link. This is all ironic right now as
I am currently working on implementing a complete Ruby environment
inside/using Io. It has been interesting on how easy it was to lay the
class based design of Ruby over the prototype based Io. I am not quite
done solidifying the final translation between the two but when I get
further I will throw the code up for consumption.

Sometimes all we need is an initial pattern to help prime the mind.
Then we can go on to clone or copy that pattern into classes or
prototypes.

Brian.

···

On 8/16/05, Jeffrey Moss <jeff@opendbms.com> wrote:

> ...but I still feel that prototype-based languages have a certain
> conceptual elegance that is lacking in class-based alternatives.

It's interesting the part western philosophy played in language design, I
tend to agree with you about the conceptual nature of class vs prototype
inheritance, but class based inheritance is easier for me to use, easier to
lay out in my mind.

Here's an interesting read on the subject:
http://www.helsinki.fi/~jppesone/papers/kandi.html

Summary:
From an ontological point of view the prototype-based languages win. There
is little evidence of a strange platonic realm of categories, but
class-based languages don't necessarily have to be realist in their
ontology - a language can include universals and "Santa Claus" without
committing to realism (von Wrigth 1972, 198). Unless the prototype-based
languages include some notion of categories they lack something
psychologically very important: the capacity of categorization.

-Jeff

19

Good to hear!

Btw, part of my enthusiasm with joining a new company has been that
they love Ruby and want to use it as often as they can.

···

On 8/22/05, Jared Nuzzolillo <onceuponapriori@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, I discussed it with my partners. We are going to use Ruby and Ruby on
Rails as our primary programming platform! I appreciate all of your advice
and encouragement; I may have made a poor decision otherwise!

20

You know, James' comment made me realize something -- what is a
"typical" ruby developer that you would consider hiring? If your
partners do not like the idea of someone working remotely, my gut
instinct would be because they have communication concerns or trust
concerns.

Most seasoned developers -- which gravitate towards ruby -- are
professionals and expect to be treated as such. Neither of the
reasons above would justify the "locality" requirement.

You may want to consider this when choosing the technologies to base
your business on -- not just the technical aspect, but the cultural
aspect of the developers who live and breathe your selected
technologies.

If I were in your shoes, I would have to make the assumption that if I
"bet the farm" on ruby, I would have to be open to hiring
telecommuting developers.

···

On 8/16/05, James McCarthy <mccarthyjames@gmail.com> wrote:

I still think remote work is much better.
It's cheaper, you have a far larger pool of telent (the whole world)
and you can do it on a contract basis.

If I were you I would try REALLY HARD at trying to sell the remote work thing.

--
My Blog: http://27degrees.blogspot.org

--
Brock Weaver
http://www.circaware.com