Where is Ruby headed etc

ruby-talk
1

A few musings/questions/dribble from an excited newbie. And my first
"big" (well, alright, long-winded) post to this forum.

I'm at an interesting crossroads of my programming career because up
'til now I've really concentrated on thick-client, Windows-based
front-end programs mainly written in VB, and usually Oracle and PL/SQL
back-end.

Soon I'm going to have to learn java/web-development. A lot of what I
work on is heading out to a wider audience and so web development
beckons. Web interfaces/programs/reports etc. on top of databases
I've created already and no doubt new ones in the future. It seems to
me that nowadays the web interface is now rich enough to create good
interfaces (without the need to resort to ActiveX - urgh!). In the
past I always thought the web development was lacking a great deal of
power compared to what I could provide in the thick-client
environment.

Looks like my initial tool will need to be Java. Not so much by
choice (it's an OK sort of language but not something I can really
love), the existing website that I'll be adding to uses Java Servlets
and I'll be interfacing to a SQL*Server database for a change.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say are, in my programming world, things
are changing.

Which got me thinking about Ruby, which is currently standing on a
pedestal beside me, with the label "Glenn's absolute favourite
language of all time ever". The pedestal, while wobbly, is being held
firm by a printed copy of Why?'s Poignant Guide and PickAxe2.

Ruby is clearly a beautiful language, easy to learn, clear to read, OO
in a nice way (ie. not in the Java way!), and with the right people
behind it with the right mindset to keep it that way and progress the
language to the future.

It would be nice if a big company would get behind Ruby and give it
the kind of marketing oomph that Java has had. Amazing how such a
clearly flawed "modern" language like Java can get such widespread
acceptance when a nice language like Ruby has to almost fight to be
noticed! Python seems to have caught on in the opensource community,
yet I've read more than a few python people say they prefer Ruby from
what they've seen.

Do we think Ruby will ever "get there" like Python, Perl, even Java?

I saw mention of some new things being added to the Ruby language.
AOP (which I had to look up - aspect oriented programming) looks to be
useful, and a big selling point of Eiffel is design-by-contract,
something else I've seen suggested as a possible ruby-enhancement.
What's the situation with these and others? Where can I read about
current ruby-developments going on? I keep seeing reference to Ruby
1.9, but the Windows Installer is only at 1.8-14. Is Ruby 1.9 just
"in development at this stage" and what's scheduled to be in it?

Now a controversial point. The perl website (www.perl.com) catches my
eye. So does the Python one (www.python.org). For whatever reason,
both websites made me go "mmm, this language looks interesting, lets
investigate further.

The Ruby one (www.ruby-lang.org) doesn't. Well, not for me. It's not
a bad website, most of the basic content is there, but so much more
could be added to it, to sort of collect lots of basic ruby info and
websites into one specific place, to attract and interest the new
potential rubyist. And it should be much more eyecatching. Like the
website should be an HTML venus-flytrap for programmers. Well, that's
my thought anyway.

I did say it was a controversial point!

Another point. I keep seeing mention of "Ruby 2" and "Rite" in the
same sentence. That Rite is perhaps the new name for Ruby 2? If
there is a plan to rename Ruby 2 as Rite, (and I'm new remember so I
might have got my wires crossed) then I think this is a very bad idea.
Market Ruby so far, then rename it something else? Nah. Silly idea.
In My Opinion. Stick to Ruby2.

Other than that, marvellous. All of it. A+ Gold Star to all
involved.

And I have NOT been drinking.

2

Which got me thinking about Ruby, which is currently standing on a
pedestal beside me, with the label "Glenn's absolute favourite
language of all time ever". The pedestal, while wobbly, is being held
firm by a printed copy of Why?'s Poignant Guide and PickAxe2.

A quick aside: why's name doesn't need a question mark to prop it up.
He is a statement, not a question. :wink:

Do we think Ruby will ever "get there" like Python, Perl, even Java?

I don't worry about when, or if, Ruby will "get there" out of a sense
of wounded pride. That is, I don't mind that Ruby isn't yet, or might
never be, as popular or widely used as the languages that you
mentioned. The only reason I care about the issue at all is that if
Ruby were already "there", it would make it easier for me (or you) to
propose it for projects at work without having to go into a big song
and dance trying to sell it to management and co-workers. Evangelism
is not my strong suit.

What's the situation with these and others? Where can I read about
current ruby-developments going on? I keep seeing reference to Ruby
1.9, but the Windows Installer is only at 1.8-14. Is Ruby 1.9 just
"in development at this stage" and what's scheduled to be in it?

At the 2003 Ruby Conference, Matz spoke about some *possible* plans
for Ruby 2.0 (nicknamed "Rite"), and Ryan Davis summarized those words
here:

    http://www.rubygarden.org/ruby?Rite

My understanding at the time was that Ruby 1.9 was sort-of an
experimental development branch in which ideas for Rite might be tried
out; but that focus may have changed. You might do well to hang out on
the ruby-core mailing list to see what's being discussed there.

Now a controversial point. The perl website (www.perl.com) catches my
eye. So does the Python one (www.python.org). For whatever reason,
both websites made me go "mmm, this language looks interesting, lets
investigate further.

The Ruby one (www.ruby-lang.org) doesn't....

I did say it was a controversial point!

Not a controversial point; in fact, it's been discussed pretty
recently. It seems like why (there he is again) mocked-up a new Ruby
home page but I'm not sure where things stand with that. But I think
there was general consensus that the home page needs some help to
better direct people towards the most helpful resources.

Another point. I keep seeing mention of "Ruby 2" and "Rite" in the
same sentence. That Rite is perhaps the new name for Ruby 2?

Yes. Well, a code name anyways.

If there is a plan to rename Ruby 2 as Rite, (and I'm new remember so I
might have got my wires crossed) then I think this is a very bad idea.

I may have my wires crossed too, but I don't think the intent is to
change the "official" name of the language from Ruby to Rite. But I
was wrong once, before.

···

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:44:51 +0900, Glenn <centrepins@gmail.com> wrote:

3

The Ruby one (www.ruby-lang.org) doesn't.

It is having the "Merry Christmas" message up in February that does it
for me... you're not the first person to comment about the sites, I
heard some talk about getting a ruby.something domain which could be a
step in the right direction. Not sure what happened there. I'm not
sure how to lend a hand on the main Ruby site, the attitude seems to
be "if you don't like it, go make your own site"...

Another point. I keep seeing mention of "Ruby 2" and "Rite" in the
same sentence. That Rite is perhaps the new name for Ruby 2?

A quick google:
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:93JvJXPAbgAJ:www.ntecs.de/blog/Tech/Programming+rite+ruby2&hl=en

That says 06 Apr 04 on it, there are probably more current details
somewhere else... It would be nice if information like this was posted
to ruby-lang, it might help ease uncertainty about the state and
future of Ruby.

Merry Christmas,
Douglas

4

Glenn wrote:

Now a controversial point. The perl website (www.perl.com) catches my
eye. So does the Python one (www.python.org). For whatever reason,
both websites made me go "mmm, this language looks interesting, lets
investigate further.

The Ruby one (www.ruby-lang.org) doesn't. Well, not for me. It's not
a bad website, most of the basic content is there, but so much more
could be added to it, to sort of collect lots of basic ruby info and
websites into one specific place, to attract and interest the new
potential rubyist. And it should be much more eyecatching. Like the
website should be an HTML venus-flytrap for programmers. Well, that's
my thought anyway.

I did say it was a controversial point!

Ooh goody! My favourite subject comes up again!

You also forgot the PHP site, parts of the Java site and a few others. Really, Ruby's is severely lacking in the "draw you in and make you buy a new car you don't really need" category. It's great for a "as spare time allows" hobbyist site, but it could look oh so much better.

I loved why_'s mockup, as did many others, but the dangling participle that ended that last discussion is "is anybody who can do anything about the ruby-web-presence-situation listening?"

So...

Is anybody who can do anything about the ruby-web-presence-situation listening?

If so, here's what I think we should do:

Step 1:
Find all the broken links, and outdated pages on ruby-lang.org and get rid of them

Step 2:
Make sure that all the essentials are on the ruby-lang.org site, so newbies don't get confused (core api docs, stdlib docs, interfacing with C docs, "how to submit a bug", all those other things I brought up earlier)

Step 3:
Prettify!

I think Step 1 would be easy. We'd just have to have a few volunteers get together and go over the site, page by page, and flag the pages and links that need to either be updated or deleted. Easy. Then someone would have to make those changes, not as easy, but if the people doing the search also edited the pages so they were up to date, it shoudln't be too hard.

Step 2 would be a bit harder, but not too much. I think most of that info exists out there somewhere, it woudld just be a matter of consolidating it on the ruby-lang.org domain, and linking it in in the right place.

Step 3 is more difficult, but I think worth doing in the long run.

So...

I'll be happy to start looking for broken links and outdated pages, if I know that when I'm done someone can fix the things I find.

Ben

5

* Glenn (Feb 17, 2005 01:50):

Now a controversial point. The perl website (www.perl.com) catches my
eye.

Really?

So does the Python one (www.python.org).

Again, really?

For whatever reason, both websites made me go "mmm, this language
looks interesting, lets investigate further.

The Ruby one (www.ruby-lang.org) doesn't. Well, not for me. It's not
a bad website, most of the basic content is there, but so much more
could be added to it, to sort of collect lots of basic ruby info and
websites into one specific place, to attract and interest the new
potential rubyist. And it should be much more eyecatching. Like the
website should be an HTML venus-flytrap for programmers. Well, that's
my thought anyway.

I did say it was a controversial point!

You bet! I think Ruby's web page is a lot more compelling than either
Python's or Perl's,
  nikolai

···

--
::: name: Nikolai Weibull :: aliases: pcp / lone-star / aka :::
::: born: Chicago, IL USA :: loc atm: Gothenburg, Sweden :::
::: page: www.pcppopper.org :: fun atm: gf,lps,ruby,lisp,war3 :::
main(){printf(&linux["\021%six\012\0"],(linux)["have"]+"fun"-97);}

6

* Lyle Johnson <lyle.johnson@gmail.com> [2005-02-17 07:08:21 +0900]:

> If there is a plan to rename Ruby 2 as Rite, (and I'm new remember so I
> might have got my wires crossed) then I think this is a very bad idea.

I may have my wires crossed too, but I don't think the intent is to
change the "official" name of the language from Ruby to Rite. But I
was wrong once, before.

As I understand it, Rite is the name of the VM, and Ruby (or Ruby2)
is the name of the language. Personally, I think that it will need
a new name (such as ruby2), since I will want ruby and ruby2 code
to coexist on the same machine.

···

--
Jim Freeze
Code Red. Code Ruby

7

Who (aside from matz?) has access to ruby-lang.org? Good question. I'd happily contribute time and effort to it, but the magic "how?" is in the way. I suspect many others feel similarly.

-Brian

···

On Feb 16, 2005, at 5:40 PM, Ben Giddings wrote:

So...

Is anybody who can do anything about the ruby-web-presence-situation listening?

If so, here's what I think we should do:

Step 1:
Find all the broken links, and outdated pages on ruby-lang.org and get rid of them

Step 2:
Make sure that all the essentials are on the ruby-lang.org site, so newbies don't get confused (core api docs, stdlib docs, interfacing with C docs, "how to submit a bug", all those other things I brought up earlier)

Step 3:
Prettify!

8

Hi,

Who (aside from matz?) has access to ruby-lang.org? Good question. I'd
happily contribute time and effort to it, but the magic "how?" is in
the way. I suspect many others feel similarly.

David Alan Black and others have article subscription account. They
don't have root privilege to overhaul the web site itself (for
example, moving from tDiary to other CMS) though.

We, <www-admin@ruby-lang.org> whose members happen to be all Japanese,
are responsible for the grand system design. So, the plan should be:

  * form a team to design the appearance
  * form another team to choose the CMS
  * create prototype on that CMS
  * www-admin would replace www.ruby-lang.org

I think people behind www-admin (not only me, who does little work for
site design) should be invited for both teams.

              matz.

···

In message "Re: Where is Ruby headed etc." on Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:29:13 +0900, Brian McCallister <brianm@apache.org> writes:

9

First, you are quite right, Lyle. I should not have "questioned" Why.
Sorry Mr. Why.

Second, I'm pleased my controversy is a common feeling. I was worried
I'd suddenly be surrounded by hundreds of rubyests all holding objects
subclassed from "AWeaponOfGreatDanger", all wishing to pass me the
message "DieYouLowLifeScum".

Nikolai, it appears that you are standing on one side of a huge sports
pitch but are alone, whereas the other team stands at the other end of
the pitch, and has many players. But this is a friendly match, so it's
OK! :o)

Now to be serious for a second. For a point about what should be on
the main ruby website, I think it should be much easier to download the
latest release of Ruby. For the Windows version (and there are two,
which might confuse some) you seem to have to go through several web
pages to get to the right version. Much as you might (or might not)
dislike Windows, many many people use it and I'd say it was important
for there to be a one-click download for the latest "installer"
version, in a prominant position on the front page of the Ruby website.
I would also agree that this should also be the case for other popular
OS's - Linux/Mac/etc. with clear instructions as to how to get it for
other OS's.

A collection of information joining all the other ruby-resources would
also be very important. Clear links to things like Why's guide,
ruby-garden website, info about ruby-talk, this comp.lang.ruby, and so
on. Plus a regularly updated "News" section, what's happened in the
ruby-development world this week/month, and so on.

And a nice big attractive front-page, with a big red RUBY picture next
to the word RUBY. Make it pretty.

G

10

Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

We, <www-admin@ruby-lang.org> whose members happen to be all Japanese,
are responsible for the grand system design. So, the plan should be:

  * form a team to design the appearance
  * form another team to choose the CMS
  * create prototype on that CMS
  * www-admin would replace www.ruby-lang.org

I think people behind www-admin (not only me, who does little work for
site design) should be invited for both teams.

This is great Matz!

I'm really glad to hear that you guys are moving on this. I assume you will
be sending out private invitations to people who can contribute to the
design team -- not me, I not all that good with design, but I sure you know
who all the right people are.

Curt

11

Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

We, <www-admin@ruby-lang.org> whose members happen to be all Japanese,
are responsible for the grand system design. So, the plan should be:

  * form a team to design the appearance
  * form another team to choose the CMS
  * create prototype on that CMS
  * www-admin would replace www.ruby-lang.org

I think people behind www-admin (not only me, who does little work for
site design) should be invited for both teams.

The people who did the Ruby on Rails (http://www.rubyonrails.com/\) site did a very professional job. It's an open-source project that actually looks professional and aesthetically pleasing without being glossy, which is a rare combination.

I believe the Rails site is powered by a combination of static pages (the front page, download page, etc.), an Instiki wiki (for the documentation), WordPress (the blog) and Trac (bug tracker, etc.).

Alexander.

12

That sounds like a perfect approach to me.

In the mean time, if we want to fix broken links, outdated pages, or add things, like documentation to the website, should we just email www-admin? If so, maybe it's better if we send fixes/updates in one combined email, so that there's less work on the other side.

If so, I'll volunteer to be on the team that tries to update or fix up the current site.

Ben

···

On Feb 16, 2005, at 23:47, Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

We, <www-admin@ruby-lang.org> whose members happen to be all Japanese,
are responsible for the grand system design. So, the plan should be:

  * form a team to design the appearance
  * form another team to choose the CMS
  * create prototype on that CMS
  * www-admin would replace www.ruby-lang.org

I think people behind www-admin (not only me, who does little work for
site design) should be invited for both teams.

13

* centrepins@gmail.com <centrepins@gmail.com> [2005-02-17 17:59:54 +0900]:

First, you are quite right, Lyle. I should not have "questioned" Why.
Sorry Mr. Why.

Second, I'm pleased my controversy is a common feeling. I was worried
I'd suddenly be surrounded by hundreds of rubyests all holding objects
subclassed from "AWeaponOfGreatDanger", all wishing to pass me the
message "DieYouLowLifeScum".

I believe that should be:

   #die_you_low_life_scum

:slight_smile:

···

--
Jim Freeze
Code Red. Code Ruby

14

* centrepins@gmail.com (Feb 17, 2005 13:36):

Nikolai, it appears that you are standing on one side of a huge sports
pitch but are alone, whereas the other team stands at the other end of
the pitch, and has many players. But this is a friendly match, so
it's OK! :o)

It seems I often do...,
  nikolai

···

--
::: name: Nikolai Weibull :: aliases: pcp / lone-star / aka :::
::: born: Chicago, IL USA :: loc atm: Gothenburg, Sweden :::
::: page: www.pcppopper.org :: fun atm: gf,lps,ruby,lisp,war3 :::
main(){printf(&linux["\021%six\012\0"],(linux)["have"]+"fun"-97);}

15

I agree, that ruby-on-rails site is pretty!

16

Hi,

We, <www-admin@ruby-lang.org> whose members happen to be all Japanese,
are responsible for the grand system design. So, the plan should be:

  * form a team to design the appearance
  * form another team to choose the CMS
  * create prototype on that CMS
  * www-admin would replace www.ruby-lang.org

I think people behind www-admin (not only me, who does little work for
site design) should be invited for both teams.

That sounds like a perfect approach to me.

Would some one raise his hand to form the team? It would be setting
up mailing list somewhere for each team.

In the mean time, if we want to fix broken links, outdated pages, or
add things, like documentation to the website, should we just email
www-admin? If so, maybe it's better if we send fixes/updates in one
combined email, so that there's less work on the other side.

Yes, unless dblack says otherwise. Or, recruiting more English
speaking article submitters might be a better idea.

              matz.

···

In message "Re: Where is Ruby headed etc." on Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:42:46 +0900, Ben Giddings <bg-rubytalk@infofiend.com> writes:

On Feb 16, 2005, at 23:47, Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

17

I would be happy to be involved in this, Matz. I can have web space
and mailing list space set up pretty quickly after this weekend, and
can spur the discussion along if not contribute a lot myself because
of my current heavy workload. This is something that needs to happen,
hopefully in time with the release of Ruby 1.8.3 scheduled for this
spring.

-austin

···

On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:00:27 +0900, Yukihiro Matsumoto <matz@ruby-lang.org> wrote:

>> * form a team to design the appearance
>> * form another team to choose the CMS
>> * create prototype on that CMS
>> * www-admin would replace www.ruby-lang.org
Would some one raise his hand to form the team? It would be setting
up mailing list somewhere for each team.

--
Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com
               * Alternate: austin@halostatue.ca

18

Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:
> >> * form a team to design the appearance

I'm raising my hand at least in part to help form a cohessive design team.

···

--
John Long
http://wiseheartdesign.com

19

Hi --

Hi,

>> We, <www-admin@ruby-lang.org> whose members happen to be all Japanese,
>> are responsible for the grand system design. So, the plan should be:
>>
>> * form a team to design the appearance
>> * form another team to choose the CMS
>> * create prototype on that CMS
>> * www-admin would replace www.ruby-lang.org
>>
>> I think people behind www-admin (not only me, who does little work for
>> site design) should be invited for both teams.
>
>That sounds like a perfect approach to me.

Would some one raise his hand to form the team? It would be setting
up mailing list somewhere for each team.

>In the mean time, if we want to fix broken links, outdated pages, or
>add things, like documentation to the website, should we just email
>www-admin? If so, maybe it's better if we send fixes/updates in one
>combined email, so that there's less work on the other side.

Yes, unless dblack says otherwise. Or, recruiting more English
speaking article submitters might be a better idea.

I'm in California, at a conference, and haven't been reading email for
a couple of days. I'm just catching up on all the ruby-lang.org
discussions....

I've done a certain amount of link-updating, and if people spot broken
links (in articles, not in the sidebar stuff, which I don't have edit
access to), I'm happy to fix them.

David

···

On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

In message "Re: Where is Ruby headed etc." > on Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:42:46 +0900, Ben Giddings <bg-rubytalk@infofiend.com> writes:
>On Feb 16, 2005, at 23:47, Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

--
David A. Black
dblack@wobblini.net

20

Austin Ziegler wrote:

I would be happy to be involved in this, Matz. I can have web space
and mailing list space set up pretty quickly after this weekend, and
can spur the discussion along if not contribute a lot myself because
of my current heavy workload. This is something that needs to happen,
hopefully in time with the release of Ruby 1.8.3 scheduled for this
spring.

Hey Austin,

Curt Hibbs is setting up a rubyforge project to help coordinate things. Apparently that will provide a mailing list, wiki and files area automagically. I think Curt is going to post once he has things all set up. Watch that space, and sign on!

Ben