Free(real Free) GUI toolkits

ruby-talk
1

Has anyone tried using the WideStudio libraries with
Ruby? They seem to be neat and clean on the unix
operating systems. Anyone tried it with Windows or
MacOSX? I need some input please. It is a MIT licensed
and completely free toolkit, compared to LGPL. It has
a IDE which is very easy to design with. It has
extensions for many languages.

English page: http://www.widestudio.org/EE/index.html
Japanese page: http://www.widestudio.org

Please give some input on it.

Supports C/C++, Perl, Python, Ruby programing
language.

--David Ross

···

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2

David Ross wrote:

Has anyone tried using the WideStudio libraries with
Ruby? They seem to be neat and clean on the unix
operating systems. Anyone tried it with Windows or
MacOSX? I need some input please. It is a MIT licensed
and completely free toolkit, compared to LGPL. It has
a IDE which is very easy to design with. It has
extensions for many languages.

English page: WideStudio/MWT Home page
Japanese page: http://www.widestudio.org

Please give some input on it.

Supports C/C++, Perl, Python, Ruby programing
language.

I haven't tried this (or even heard of it before), but it does sound
interesting.

Some questions I would have:

1. It mentions it supports Ruby -- I guess the app designer can generate
Ruby code -- but I've never heard of a Ruby binding for it. What's the
deal there?

2. I wonder if it supports MDI. I know the whole industry is trending
away from MDI, but I adamantly maintain that it makes sense in some
cases. (Large number of tiny documents as opposed to a small number
of large docs.)

Hal

3

One thing I forgot to mention. It supports..

Supports UNICODE(UTF8) and multi encoding function
with various kind of encodeing like
EUC-JP,SJIS,EUC-KR,EUC-CN,UTF8,ISO8859-X.

Supports OpenGL and database(PostgreSQL/MySQL/ODBC).

--David Ross

···

--- David Ross <drossruby@yahoo.com> wrote:

Has anyone tried using the WideStudio libraries with
Ruby? They seem to be neat and clean on the unix
operating systems. Anyone tried it with Windows or
MacOSX? I need some input please. It is a MIT
licensed
and completely free toolkit, compared to LGPL. It
has
a IDE which is very easy to design with. It has
extensions for many languages.

English page:
WideStudio/MWT Home page
Japanese page: http://www.widestudio.org

Please give some input on it.

Supports C/C++, Perl, Python, Ruby programing
language.

--David Ross

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4

David Ross wrote:

Please give some input on it.

I thought I'd give it a try on Win2K.

It took a bit of time to figure out how to construct a basic window/form. I still don't see how to attach code to controls.

Help does not work correctly. It attempts to load this URL

http://%1%20"file://E:/Program%20Files/WideStudio/ws/doc/C/builder-doc/builder.html"
  
It loads if I remove the section just before "E:/"

It would be nice if each page in the set of help Web pages had a "next" and "previous" link, as right now one has to go back to the table of contents to move to find the link to move to the next section.

So far, don't find it all too intuitive. Little things seem awkward. For example, when I click on the 'Save' icon, I get a message box telling me some things have changed, and do I want to save them? Well, yes. That's why I clicked the 'Save' icon.

And WS Builder doesn't respond to Alt-F4.

James

5

I haven't tried this (or even heard of it before),
but it does sound
interesting.

It was a project started in 2000. It died in 2002, the
author revived it. I hope people to contribute code. I
will create X widgets myself for commercial purposes,
and submit them. Just because it isnt LGPL or
GPL(restrictive licenses).

Some questions I would have:

1. It mentions it supports Ruby -- I guess the app
designer can generate
Ruby code -- but I've never heard of a Ruby binding
for it. What's the
deal there?

You open wsbuilder, go in to options, then click etc.
then change the language to ruby. then you click
generate code.

here is a small piece of the code generated.
    @newdial_006 =
Mpfc::WSCdialog.new(@newbase_005,"newdial_006")
    @newdial_006.init
    @newdial_006.setProperty("name","newdial_006")
    @newdial_006.setProperty("titleString","title5")
    @newdial_006.setProperty("x",10)
    @newdial_006.setProperty("y",10)
    @newdial_006.setProperty("width",200)
    @newdial_006.setProperty("height",50)

    @newwin000.setVisible(1)

what would be better here is..
Mpfc::WSCdialog.new(@newbase_005,"newdial_006",name,title,x,y,w,h)

maybe it has it, I might just not be looking. I am
fairly new to this GUI toolkit myself. I thought I
should share this MIT licensed kit with the people of
ruby.

I realize this looks a bit messy, someone could help
the developer improve on his code, unless I am just
missing something.

Yes, it does have different look and feels that are
"pretty". I would like to see this free(MIT) toolkit
improve to a better look and feel to the guis and
widgets.

No, it does not have MDI. I think I will promote the
WideStudio and convince people that it can be a good
widely used future toolkit. It still lacks many common
widgets. That doesn't bother me since I know X
programming well though :). I do see a bright future
in this toolkit if it remains free. I would definitely
like to see it used in commercial applications, Widget
creation is not very difficult, it just takes a bit of
X programming with the C language.

--David Ross

···

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6

I thought I'd give it a try on Win2K.

It took a bit of time to figure out how to construct
a basic
window/form. I still don't see how to attach code
to controls.

mmmm. I have seen it somewhere. Oh right... its in the
procedures. you have to create procedures, then double
click on them, it will open your favorite editor, I
think you can set the editor in options.

Help does not work correctly. It attempts to load
this URL

Its main aim was unix oriented systems and the
T-Engine. I guess patches could be made, is this on
all the help or just that one?

It would be nice if each page in the set of help Web
pages had a "next"
and "previous" link, as right now one has to go back
to the table of
contents to move to find the link to move to the
next section.

the documentation is *HUGE*. There should be.. would
be nice. I think that there are no comments in the
code specifically because they stripped comments out.
If the comments were in per say UTF8(which I guess
they have thier own parser) the sources would be
double the size.

So far, don't find it all too intuitive. Little
things seem awkward.

Yes, I do too, I have even found bugs that I will end
up writing patches for. There is something strange
with the WSNdata in the tree and list controls in the
wsbuilder gui.

  For example, when I click on the 'Save' icon, I
get a message box
telling me some things have changed, and do I want
to save them? Well,
yes. That's why I clicked the 'Save' icon.

:slight_smile: I know, I laughed at this. It saves on exit asking
you the same question, and saves when you click
compile. I should patch the gui all to hell, I found a
memory leak in 1 widget in the ObjectViewer that lets
you drag and drop widgets so you don't have to learn
the names.. if you would. try creating a progress bar
from the objectViewer, It could be a library problem
on my system, unsure.

And WS Builder doesn't respond to Alt-F4.

was not aimed to be on windows. Maybe I could take a
look at this "horrible" code (/me laughs) lothar_troll
is talking about later. I did look at the code too, I
did see no problem with that type of style, names were
defined very well where I could look and tell what it
was, but then again, I know how to code well.

--David

···

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7

Hello David,

I haven't tried this (or even heard of it before),
but it does sound
interesting.

It was a project started in 2000. It died in 2002, the
author revived it. I hope people to contribute code. I
will create X widgets myself for commercial purposes,
and submit them. Just because it isnt LGPL or
GPL(restrictive licenses).

I hate myself for asking this question:
But what is so wrong with the LGPL in an object oriented GUI toolkit
where you can create commercial X widgets without any problems for any
purpose. I'm speaking about GTK/FOX/FLTK/TK here.

No, it does not have MDI. I think I will promote the
WideStudio and convince people that it can be a good
widely used future toolkit. It still lacks many common
widgets. That doesn't bother me since I know X
programming well though :). I do see a bright future
in this toolkit if it remains free. I would definitely
like to see it used in commercial applications, Widget
creation is not very difficult, it just takes a bit of
X programming with the C language.

I believe that the world really don't need another toolkit, with a lot
of common widgets still missing. Widget creation is also not very
difficult in any toolkit (TK may be an exception).

···

--
Best regards, emailto: scholz at scriptolutions dot com
Lothar Scholz http://www.ruby-ide.com
CTO Scriptolutions Ruby, PHP, Python IDE 's

8

I hate myself for asking this question:
But what is so wrong with the LGPL in an object
oriented GUI toolkit
where you can create commercial X widgets without
any problems for any
purpose. I'm speaking about GTK/FOX/FLTK/TK here.

LGPL has strings, if you don't believe me, reread the
license. Look at the clauses about distributing
non-source binary applications. Then take a really
good look at the clauses in wx and FOX (LGPL and the
wx license) about binary objects(*note: binary objects
are *NOT* binary executables). Thank you for your
input.

I believe that the world really don't need another
toolkit, with a lot
of common widgets still missing. Widget creation is
also not very
difficult in any toolkit (TK may be an exception).

This toolkit is more flexible than FOX or
wxWidgets(wxWindows) will ever be. WS was designed for
embedded systems, I am glad that the design works on
nix and windows.

I am glad to use WS now, it has proved more worthy
than FOX,GTK, and Wx. Big deal it lacks the more
common widgets you would find in GTK, or even Qt.
Hopefully, people will support this better toolkit.
You might not find it interesting because most people
do not read about embedded devices and read about
software like T-Engine. Please research this on your
own. the research for WS has been extensive. Its not
just *another* toolkit. Hmm okay, you must not be into
widget design that much, or do not create complex
widgets. I don't know about you, but WS is a very good
IDE. --David Ross

···

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9

Oh a correction, by binary, I meant statically linked
and binary.

···

--- David Ross <drossruby@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I hate myself for asking this question:
> But what is so wrong with the LGPL in an object
> oriented GUI toolkit
> where you can create commercial X widgets without
> any problems for any
> purpose. I'm speaking about GTK/FOX/FLTK/TK here.

LGPL has strings, if you don't believe me, reread
the
license. Look at the clauses about distributing
non-source binary applications. Then take a really
good look at the clauses in wx and FOX (LGPL and the
wx license) about binary objects(*note: binary
objects
are *NOT* binary executables). Thank you for your
input.

> I believe that the world really don't need another
> toolkit, with a lot
> of common widgets still missing. Widget creation
is
> also not very
> difficult in any toolkit (TK may be an exception).

This toolkit is more flexible than FOX or
wxWidgets(wxWindows) will ever be. WS was designed
for
embedded systems, I am glad that the design works on
nix and windows.

I am glad to use WS now, it has proved more worthy
than FOX,GTK, and Wx. Big deal it lacks the more
common widgets you would find in GTK, or even Qt.
Hopefully, people will support this better toolkit.
You might not find it interesting because most
people
do not read about embedded devices and read about
software like T-Engine. Please research this on your
own. the research for WS has been extensive. Its not
just *another* toolkit. Hmm okay, you must not be
into
widget design that much, or do not create complex
widgets. I don't know about you, but WS is a very
good
IDE. --David Ross

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10

Hmm.. does anyone have a MacOSX computer they can try
out WideStudio on? I am curious to see if it is
portable to the mac.

WideStudio has plenty of widgets btw. I just didn't
play enough with the wsbuilder.

I guess things like MDI forms are not important :slight_smile:

--David Ross

···

-------------------------------------------
drossruby at yahoo (dot} com

Ruby Production Archive(RPA - the ruby package
manager)
http://rpa-base.rubyforge.org/

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11

David Ross wrote:

Hmm.. does anyone have a MacOSX computer they can try
out WideStudio on? I am curious to see if it is
portable to the mac.

WideStudio has plenty of widgets btw. I just didn't
play enough with the wsbuilder.

I guess things like MDI forms are not important :slight_smile:

Seems like it works pretty well. As a warning, it runs under apple's X11. You might have to have people download it, as most people don't install it by default. It's something like a 60meg download from apple's site.

···

--
Rando Christensen
<eyez@illuzionz.org>

12

Hello David,

Hmm.. does anyone have a MacOSX computer they can try
out WideStudio on? I am curious to see if it is
portable to the mac.

WideStudio has plenty of widgets btw. I just didn't
play enough with the wsbuilder.

Okay i downloaded the 100 MB Win Installer and played a bit with
wsbuilder. I must say that this toolkit can win the second price in
the most ugly toolkit competition (the first is for the all time
winner FLTK). And there is no theming to change this, looking at the
code shows me that there will be no theming for a very long time
because the drawing code is deeply buried in the source files.

I'm sure that the toolkit is more flexible, just because it uses a
TK like approach of managing/accessing attributes by string names. Maybe
not bad but quite different. The event procedures that simple
functions. So writting C++ code would require extra overhead, but it
is okay for different language bindings.

The documentation seems not be on the state of a 3.1 release. It
describes methods but not which properties are available. There seems
to be also no real tutorial for starters. I must say that i don't
like FAQ like tutorials, that have a lot of "How to " titles but no
integrated 10 min learn the basics code.

From the technical point i don't like that the lib has no layout
mangement (only Delphi like anchors), a very bad option for everybody
who wants to do L10N. The implemented widgets are very very basic.
As a toolkit written in Japan there are of course unicode/MBCS (?)
handling routines. From the widget design it seems to be much much
harder to write or adapt widgets as it is in FOX/QT. I just looked at
the "WSClist.cpp" source code to find a place where i can overwrite
the item draw method to use my own custom draw hook. It's not
possible. But looking at the source code, hey man that code is ugly and
completely comment free. Other things, radio+check buttons must always
be grouped, so there seems to be also no good separation for
layout/logic in the toolkit.

So i think it is good that this is a dead project. Don't waste your
time to try to work with this toolkit. After working about 8 years
with writting GUI's i can tell you that the afford you need to bring
this upto date (compared to GTK/QT/FOX) is too expensive and i really
doubt that you will find so much programmers helping you.

Oh yes i forgot, the WxBuilder - the GUI builder - is nothing where
anybody want's to write larger dialogs.

···

--
Best regards, emailto: scholz at scriptolutions dot com
Lothar Scholz http://www.ruby-ide.com
CTO Scriptolutions Ruby, PHP, Python IDE 's

13

Yes, I seen that it needed X11 from the build files.
Maybe someone could port it to use a native toolkit if
it really irritates them. --David Ross

···

David Ross wrote:

> Hmm.. does anyone have a MacOSX computer they can
try
> out WideStudio on? I am curious to see if it is
> portable to the mac.
>
> WideStudio has plenty of widgets btw. I just
didn't
> play enough with the wsbuilder.
>
> I guess things like MDI forms are not important :slight_smile:
>

Seems like it works pretty well. As a warning, it
runs under apple's
X11. You might have to have people download it, as
most people don't
install it by default. It's something like a 60meg
download from apple's
site.

--
Rando Christensen
<eyez@illuzionz.org>

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14

"Truth is important, knock down the trolls on thier
ass
Only good people deserve respect"

You know. you are the biggest troll I have ever seen
on the mailing list. Really, stop. I'm not kidding. It
has all you need. Its free as well, no strings
attached. I don't know what the hell your problem is,
but stop. Below is my sample app I constructed in 15
minutes after learning the interface. it is simple to
create than others. It is very flexible as well. text
looks great widgets work great, and it looks the same
way on windows. I tried it, works fine. THanks now
stfu lothar_troll.

You didn't even research why WideStudio was created.

Okay i downloaded the 100 MB Win Installer and
played a bit with
wsbuilder. I must say that this toolkit can win the
second price in
the most ugly toolkit competition (the first is for
the all time
winner FLTK). And there is no theming to change
this, looking at the
code shows me that there will be no theming for a
very long time
because the drawing code is deeply buried in the
source files.

Send patches

I'm sure that the toolkit is more flexible, just
because it uses a
TK like approach of managing/accessing attributes by
string names. Maybe
not bad but quite different. The event procedures
that simple
functions. So writting C++ code would require extra
overhead, but it
is okay for different language bindings.

Send patches.

The documentation seems not be on the state of a 3.1
release. It
describes methods but not which properties are
available. There seems
to be also no real tutorial for starters. I must
say that i don't
like FAQ like tutorials, that have a lot of "How to
" titles but no
integrated 10 min learn the basics code.

Send patches

From the technical point i don't like that the lib
has no layout
mangement (only Delphi like anchors), a very bad
option for everybody
who wants to do L10N. The implemented widgets are
very very basic.
As a toolkit written in Japan there are of course
unicode/MBCS (?)
handling routines. From the widget design it seems
to be much much
harder to write or adapt widgets as it is in FOX/QT.
I just looked at
the "WSClist.cpp" source code to find a place where
i can overwrite
the item draw method to use my own custom draw hook.
It's not
possible. But looking at the source code, hey man
that code is ugly and
completely comment free. Other things, radio+check
buttons must always
be grouped, so there seems to be also no good
separation for
layout/logic in the toolkit.

send patches or shut up.

So i think it is good that this is a dead project.

You are trolling. Stop

Don't waste your
time to try to work with this toolkit. After working
about 8 years
with writting GUI's i can tell you that the afford
you need to bring
this upto date (compared to GTK/QT/FOX) is too
expensive and i really
doubt that you will find so much programmers helping
you.

not really.

Oh yes i forgot, the WxBuilder - the GUI builder -
is nothing where
anybody want's to write larger dialogs.

umm works fine for large guis.

···

------------------------------------------------
Brought to you by the world biggest IRC asshole
Truth is important, knock down the trolls on thier ass
Only good people deserve respect
David Ross
drossruby@yahoo.com

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15

Lothar,

Maybe you should put a disclaimer stating that you are selling a competing product at the top of messages criticizing free software in the same category as your product. I'm not accusing you of bias or anything, I just believe it's better to let people know about any conflicts of interest so they don't get the wrong impression when they find out later. They might misunderstand your good intentions to keep us informed and decide not to buy from you...

Lothar Scholz wrote:

[SNIP]

> And there is no theming to change this, looking at the

code shows me that there will be no theming for a very long time
because the drawing code is deeply buried in the source files.

Under the "Options" menu, there's a "Look and Feel" submenu that brings up: standard1, standard2, modern1, modern2, classic1, classic2

> [SNIP]
> So i think it is good that this is a dead project. Don't waste your
> time to try to work with this toolkit.

Why do you think it is a dead project? Saying it is dead, doesn't make it so.

The latest release is 3.80-3 which was released July 25, 2004. Here's the last dozen entries from the release history.

# 25/07/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.80-3)
# 13/07/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.80-2)
# 01/07/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.80-1)
# 03/06/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-10)
# 02/06/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-9)
# 18/05/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-8)
# 21/03/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-7)
# 29/02/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-6)
# 21/02/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-5)
# 20/02/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-4)
# 22/01/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-3)
# 13/12/2002 Released WideStudio(v3.20-1)

Here are my impressions about Wise Studio 3.80.

There are many widgets and many options for each widget. You can move and resize widgets using the mouse and watch their properties update in real-time while doing so. Not too shabby for a free IDE that supports c/c++, perl, and ruby.

The main complaint I have is the size of executables when linking statically. A hello world window application statically linked was 2.7MB while the dynamically linked was only around 100KB (but requires widestudio runtime DLLs). This was using the included GCC/MinGW32 c++ compiler.

I haven't tried yet but maybe using the free Optimizing c++ compiler from Microsoft will produce smaller executables (VC++ Toolkit 2003 v1.01).

There's an option to store GUI components in files for loading/use at runtime (as opposed to keeping them inside executables) but I haven't explored that yet.

I'd love to see something like this for Fox Toolkit.

16

Not impressed either.... BUT since I had nothing to do, I added to my GUI
widget comparison page at the FOX Community wiki page. Feel free to add or
fix any entry's.

http://fox-toolkit.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Widget_Comparison

  Sander

···

On Sunday 01 August 2004 07:28 am, Lothar Scholz wrote:

Hello David,

> Hmm.. does anyone have a MacOSX computer they can try
> out WideStudio on? I am curious to see if it is
> portable to the mac.

> WideStudio has plenty of widgets btw. I just didn't
> play enough with the wsbuilder.

Okay i downloaded the 100 MB Win Installer and played a bit with
wsbuilder. I must say that this toolkit can win the second price in
the most ugly toolkit competition (the first is for the all time
winner FLTK). And there is no theming to change this, looking at the
code shows me that there will be no theming for a very long time
because the drawing code is deeply buried in the source files.

I'm sure that the toolkit is more flexible, just because it uses a
TK like approach of managing/accessing attributes by string names. Maybe
not bad but quite different. The event procedures that simple
functions. So writting C++ code would require extra overhead, but it
is okay for different language bindings.

The documentation seems not be on the state of a 3.1 release. It
describes methods but not which properties are available. There seems
to be also no real tutorial for starters. I must say that i don't
like FAQ like tutorials, that have a lot of "How to " titles but no
integrated 10 min learn the basics code.

From the technical point i don't like that the lib has no layout
mangement (only Delphi like anchors), a very bad option for everybody
who wants to do L10N. The implemented widgets are very very basic.
As a toolkit written in Japan there are of course unicode/MBCS (?)
handling routines. From the widget design it seems to be much much
harder to write or adapt widgets as it is in FOX/QT. I just looked at
the "WSClist.cpp" source code to find a place where i can overwrite
the item draw method to use my own custom draw hook. It's not
possible. But looking at the source code, hey man that code is ugly and
completely comment free. Other things, radio+check buttons must always
be grouped, so there seems to be also no good separation for
layout/logic in the toolkit.

So i think it is good that this is a dead project. Don't waste your
time to try to work with this toolkit. After working about 8 years
with writting GUI's i can tell you that the afford you need to bring
this upto date (compared to GTK/QT/FOX) is too expensive and i really
doubt that you will find so much programmers helping you.

Oh yes i forgot, the WxBuilder - the GUI builder - is nothing where
anybody want's to write larger dialogs.

--
"Nervous hands grip tight the knife
In the darkness, till the cake is cut"
  - Peter Gabriel

17

* Lothar Scholz <mailinglists@scriptolutions.com> [2004-08-01 21:28:12 +0900]:

Okay i downloaded the 100 MB Win Installer and played a bit with
wsbuilder. I must say that this toolkit can win the second price in
the most ugly toolkit competition (the first is for the all time
winner FLTK).

Wow. I am suprised to hear that. I always thought of FLTK as
a fast and lean toolkit. Can you explain more.

Jim

18

In article <410CAD5B.8030405@illuzionz.org>,

···

Rando Christensen <eyez@illuzionz.org> wrote:

David Ross wrote:

> Hmm.. does anyone have a MacOSX computer they can try
> out WideStudio on? I am curious to see if it is
> portable to the mac.

Seems like it works pretty well. As a warning, it runs under apple's
X11.

"it works pretty well", combined with "it runs under apple's X11" really
means that it is not a Mac application at all, and Mac users will in all
likelihood not find it a suitable solution.

Reinder

19

David Ross wrote:

widestudio screenshot by electricmew on DeviantArt

Looks really nice to me. Could you post somewhere the code? Only code tells the truth... :wink:

Regards,

   Michael

20

David Ross <drossruby@yahoo.com> writes:

"Truth is important, knock down the trolls on thier
ass
Only good people deserve respect"

You know. you are the biggest troll I have ever seen
on the mailing list. Really, stop. I'm not kidding. It
has all you need. Its free as well, no strings
attached. I don't know what the hell your problem is,
but stop. Below is my sample app I constructed in 15
minutes after learning the interface. it is simple to
create than others. It is very flexible as well. text
looks great widgets work great, and it looks the same
way on windows. I tried it, works fine. THanks now
stfu lothar_troll.

For what it's worth, I appreciated his review. I don't think I'm ever
going near this toolkit. It would be interesting to see you actually
answer any of his issues instead of just mindlessly spamming "SEND
PATCHES TROLL."

  mikael