Free(real Free) GUI toolkits

ruby-talk
21

Hello David,

You know. you are the biggest troll I have ever seen
on the mailing list. Really, stop. I'm not kidding. It
has all you need. Its free as well, no strings

Maybe it has what you need to build some sample applications,
but as you write on your own a few important advanced widgets
(and features) are missing.

attached. I don't know what the hell your problem is,
but stop. Below is my sample app I constructed in 15
minutes after learning the interface. it is simple to
create than others. It is very flexible as well. text
looks great widgets work great, and it looks the same
way on windows. I tried it, works fine. THanks now
stfu lothar_troll.

Okay 4 things that are quite bad when you try WS Builder.

- Tab Focus Movement in Widgets do not work
- Moving the selected item in the tree/list widgets outside the
   window with the cursor keys do not scroll the window.
- The typical far eastern style with "File (F)" menus looks
   ugly in western countries.
- Key Handling in Menus does not working.

Because i think WS Builder might be the biggest software build with
this toolkit (The website has not one reference to a real world
application) it can be seen as a reference. I know this are minor
things but there is an old rule in the industry: The first 90% of a
program takes 10% of the time and the last 10% takes 90% of the time.

And by the way, a Windows App look different then your
Linux App.

You didn't even research why WideStudio was created.

Where can i find this ? Maybe you can tell me here why it was
created ?

And does history really matter when someone
picks it up to write a ruby application ?
I doubt. People pick up tools that help them to do there tasks,
not to increase the amout of work they already must do.

Send patches

(Repeated 5 times)

Nice, this shows that you now that a lot of things must be done.
I don't doubt that with a lot of energy you can turn this into a
really good toolkit. But you can say this to any other toolkit as
well. So where is your point why WSStudio is so much better ?
Can you point out something else then the license ?

Maybe you can give me some more information why this thing should be
better for embedded systems ? Is there a version working on the Linux
framebuffer or a version for WinCE or handheld's ?

The documentation seems not be on the state of a 3.1
release. It
describes methods but not which properties are
available. There seems

Send patches

I don't need to send you, because here i must only look at the website
to see that they are available and only the delivered HTML files are
wrongly packed as noted before by James Britt. Seems that you never
read my posting exactly.

So i think it is good that this is a dead project.

You are trolling. Stop

Sometimes you just should look why things are going that way.
What has this to do with trolling ?
Can you please tell me why the project died in 2002 and why
nobody knows about this project if it is so good.

Oh yes i forgot, the WxBuilder - the GUI builder -
is nothing where
anybody want's to write larger dialogs.

umm works fine for large guis.

Which one ? A GUI Builder that relies on hierarchical structure of
widgets and doesn't allow you to move items around in this
hierarchy in an easy way (I speak of the Inspector Tree widget here),
that don't have tools (grid lines/alignment etc.) helping you to do
better layout ? I must not look at it very long to see that i wouldn't
use it with pleasure to do the work.

Okay it's up to you. It's your time that you have to spend on it.
I should learn to not respond to postings like yours or the one who
wants to build a rubycc. They all show the same problem: a lot of
people can't estimate the time a programming task takes. And so a lot
of energy is wasted that could be used much better in other projects.
In the rubycc case i said the persons should work together with matz
on the ruby core, i your case i would suggest to help improve FOX, GTK
or the new drawing engine in TK.

···

--
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Lothar Scholz http://www.ruby-ide.com
CTO Scriptolutions Ruby, PHP, Python IDE 's

22

David Ross wrote:

Send patches
Send patches.
Send patches
send patches or shut up.

Please don't do this. Just because a project is open-source does not mean people have to try to fix it themselves before complaining about how broken it is.

···

--
Rando Christensen
<eyez@illuzionz.org>

23

Hello David,

You know. you are the biggest troll I have ever seen
on the mailing list. Really, stop. I'm not kidding. It
has all you need. Its free as well, no strings
attached. I don't know what the hell your problem is,
but stop.

You can see me as confused as you are.
In your opening post you wrote:

Has anyone tried using the WideStudio libraries with
Ruby? They seem to be neat and clean on the unix

...

Please give some input on it.

So tried to give some input. I spend about 30 min - okay it's
Sunday, so it was a little bit easier to find the time. But
after posting my oppinion you started with this stupid "trolling"
arguments ?

Maybe it is because:

hope people to contribute code. I
will create X widgets myself for commercial purposes,
and submit them.

and you only wanted to place a marketing message ?
Sorry for this but then you should have written your first message
with other words and not asking for "input on it".

···

--
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Lothar Scholz http://www.ruby-ide.com
CTO Scriptolutions Ruby, PHP, Python IDE 's

24

It's not a competing product though. An IDE (a GUI program) is a very
different thing from a GUI framework.

Still, a link to his product in a .sig is not going to do anyone any harm.
Nor will some better judgement from those who hand out troll awards so
freely.

Gavin

···

Lothar,

Maybe you should put a disclaimer stating that you are selling a
competing product at the top of messages criticizing free software in
the same category as your product. I'm not accusing you of bias or
anything, I just believe it's better to let people know about any
conflicts of interest so they don't get the wrong impression when they
find out later. They might misunderstand your good intentions to keep
us informed and decide not to buy from you...

Lothar Scholz wrote:

[SNIP]

> And there is no theming to change this, looking at the

code shows me that there will be no theming for a very long time
because the drawing code is deeply buried in the source files.

Under the "Options" menu, there's a "Look and Feel" submenu that brings
up: standard1, standard2, modern1, modern2, classic1, classic2

> [SNIP]
> So i think it is good that this is a dead project. Don't waste your
time to try to work with this toolkit.

Why do you think it is a dead project? Saying it is dead, doesn't make
it so.

The latest release is 3.80-3 which was released July 25, 2004. Here's
the last dozen entries from the release history.

# 25/07/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.80-3)
# 13/07/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.80-2)
# 01/07/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.80-1)
# 03/06/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-10)
# 02/06/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-9)
# 18/05/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-8)
# 21/03/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-7)
# 29/02/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-6)
# 21/02/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-5)
# 20/02/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-4)
# 22/01/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-3)
# 13/12/2002 Released WideStudio(v3.20-1)

Here are my impressions about Wise Studio 3.80.

There are many widgets and many options for each widget. You can move
and resize widgets using the mouse and watch their properties update in
real-time while doing so. Not too shabby for a free IDE that supports
c/c++, perl, and ruby.

The main complaint I have is the size of executables when linking
statically. A hello world window application statically linked was
2.7MB while the dynamically linked was only around 100KB (but requires
widestudio runtime DLLs). This was using the included GCC/MinGW32 c++
compiler.

I haven't tried yet but maybe using the free Optimizing c++ compiler
from Microsoft will produce smaller executables (VC++ Toolkit 2003
v1.01).

There's an option to store GUI components in files for loading/use at
runtime (as opposed to keeping them inside executables) but I haven't
explored that yet.

I'd love to see something like this for Fox Toolkit.

25

That is a really nice comparison chart. One question
though, What about the widgets that each has that FOX
doesnt? There are more Widgets than just those.
:P(*hehe) --David

Not impressed either.... BUT since I had nothing to
do, I added to my GUI
widget comparison page at the FOX Community wiki
page. Feel free to add or
fix any entry's.

http://fox-toolkit.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Widget_Comparison

···

--- Sander Jansen <sander@knology.net> wrote:

  Sander

On Sunday 01 August 2004 07:28 am, Lothar Scholz > wrote:
> Hello David,
>
> > Hmm.. does anyone have a MacOSX computer they
can try
> > out WideStudio on? I am curious to see if it
is
> > portable to the mac.
>
> > WideStudio has plenty of widgets btw. I just
didn't
> > play enough with the wsbuilder.
>
> Okay i downloaded the 100 MB Win Installer and
played a bit with
> wsbuilder. I must say that this toolkit can win
the second price in
> the most ugly toolkit competition (the first is
for the all time
> winner FLTK). And there is no theming to change
this, looking at the
> code shows me that there will be no theming for a
very long time
> because the drawing code is deeply buried in the
source files.
>
> I'm sure that the toolkit is more flexible, just
because it uses a
> TK like approach of managing/accessing attributes
by string names. Maybe
> not bad but quite different. The event procedures
that simple
> functions. So writting C++ code would require
extra overhead, but it
> is okay for different language bindings.
>
> The documentation seems not be on the state of a
3.1 release. It
> describes methods but not which properties are
available. There seems
> to be also no real tutorial for starters. I must
say that i don't
> like FAQ like tutorials, that have a lot of "How
to " titles but no
> integrated 10 min learn the basics code.
>
> From the technical point i don't like that the lib
has no layout
> mangement (only Delphi like anchors), a very bad
option for everybody
> who wants to do L10N. The implemented widgets are
very very basic.
> As a toolkit written in Japan there are of course
unicode/MBCS (?)
> handling routines. From the widget design it seems
to be much much
> harder to write or adapt widgets as it is in
FOX/QT. I just looked at
> the "WSClist.cpp" source code to find a place
where i can overwrite
> the item draw method to use my own custom draw
hook. It's not
> possible. But looking at the source code, hey man
that code is ugly and
> completely comment free. Other things, radio+check
buttons must always
> be grouped, so there seems to be also no good
separation for
> layout/logic in the toolkit.
>
> So i think it is good that this is a dead project.
Don't waste your
> time to try to work with this toolkit. After
working about 8 years
> with writting GUI's i can tell you that the afford
you need to bring
> this upto date (compared to GTK/QT/FOX) is too
expensive and i really
> doubt that you will find so much programmers
helping you.
>
> Oh yes i forgot, the WxBuilder - the GUI builder -
is nothing where
> anybody want's to write larger dialogs.

--
"Nervous hands grip tight the knife
In the darkness, till the cake is cut"
  - Peter Gabriel

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26

Hello jim,

* Lothar Scholz <mailinglists@scriptolutions.com> [2004-08-01 21:28:12 +0900]:

Okay i downloaded the 100 MB Win Installer and played a bit with
wsbuilder. I must say that this toolkit can win the second price in
the most ugly toolkit competition (the first is for the all time
winner FLTK).

Wow. I am suprised to hear that. I always thought of FLTK as
a fast and lean toolkit. Can you explain more.

"Fast and lean toolkit" and "nice and beautiful" are different things.
Right ? FLTK is the first but not the second. Thats what i said.

FLTK 2.0 has some theming support (don't know how much and which
quality) but FLTK 2.0 is as far away as GNU HURD.

···

--
Best regards, emailto: scholz at scriptolutions dot com
Lothar Scholz http://www.ruby-ide.com
CTO Scriptolutions Ruby, PHP, Python IDE 's

27

Reinder Verlinde wrote:

"it works pretty well", combined with "it runs under apple's X11" really means that it is not a Mac application at all, and Mac users will in all likelihood not find it a suitable solution.

Reinder

You're probably right; but then again, there aren't ANY toolkits that do any better than that for cross-platform with OSX. wxwidgets technically works on OSX, but it's kind of a pain. I got it to compile once, but then I couldn't get python's wxPython to work with it and gave up. (I was trying to get the bittorrent wxPython stuff working.)

Any others that exist (Including the local ruby favorite fox) only work under X11 anyway.

(I believe QT is actually an exception to this, and they now provide a fully native OSX Framework. Are there ruby bindings for QT?)

···

--
Rando Christensen
<eyez@illuzionz.org>

28

"it works pretty well", combined with "it runs under
apple's X11" really
means that it is not a Mac application at all, and
Mac users will in all
likelihood not find it a suitable solution.

Reinder

Yes, I was told by ThreeeDayMonk. He said it was as
fast as an application using Cocoa. I might just have
to get access and add in the corect code to make it
use cocoa. I like it better than X11. :slight_smile: Should be
fairly easy doing it blind because I have many books
on cocoa. Also apple has great amounts of free
documentation. --David Ross

···

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29

David Ross wrote:

"Truth is important, knock down the trolls on thier ass Only good
people deserve respect"

You know. you are the biggest troll I have ever seen on the mailing
list. Really, stop. I'm not kidding. It has all you need. Its free as
well, no strings attached. I don't know what the hell your problem
is, but stop. Below is my sample app I constructed in 15 minutes
after learning the interface. it is simple to create than others. It
is very flexible as well. text looks great widgets work great, and it
looks the same way on windows. I tried it, works fine. THanks now stfu lothar_troll. Send patches Send patches. Send patches send
patches or shut up. You are trolling. Stop not really.

You've done personal flames like this before and in the
public. It damages the reputation of the Ruby community and really
doesn't contribute anything. I'd prefer you staying neutral, polite and objective (which doesn't mean that you're not allowed to have your own opinion).

If you think that I'm trying to troll you and want to attack me because
of it, then please do so privately.

If you want to discuss politely, then do so here.

Regards,
Florian Gross

30

I've sortof come to view my OS X box as a Mac/Java/X11/Linux(Fink ports) box, so I'm fine with GUI variations. I'm afraid I hardly notice them anymore.

I use the following on both Windows and OS X:
Freeride Ruby Editor (X11)
Mozilla Thunderbird
Mozilla Firefox
JEdit (Java)
IntelliJ IDEA (Java)

And I have no complaints. On the other hand, OpenOffice via X11 on OS X is dissapointing, so I can see mainstream apps needing the tighter Mac compliance.

Nick

Reinder Verlinde wrote:

···

In article <410CAD5B.8030405@illuzionz.org>,
Rando Christensen <eyez@illuzionz.org> wrote:

David Ross wrote:

Hmm.. does anyone have a MacOSX computer they can try
out WideStudio on? I am curious to see if it is
portable to the mac.
     

Seems like it works pretty well. As a warning, it runs under apple's X11.
   
"it works pretty well", combined with "it runs under apple's X11" really means that it is not a Mac application at all, and Mac users will in all likelihood not find it a suitable solution.

Reinder

31

lothar_troll was complaining, not me. I always fix
things on my own and submit. This is one of the
reasons I like the BSD license, I can submit only the
changes I want. Which when I have a piece of code that
is a bad hack that I do not want to submit, I don't
have to. --David Ross

···

David Ross wrote:

> Send patches
> Send patches.
> Send patches
> send patches or shut up.

Please don't do this. Just because a project is
open-source does not
mean people have to try to fix it themselves before
complaining about
how broken it is.

--
Rando Christensen
<eyez@illuzionz.org>

-----------------------------------------
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good people deserve respect
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32

Maybe I should have specified any input except
trollish input.

WideStudio was designed to work on the T-Engine.

links to commercial references? Look for the T-Engine
WideStudio references, it is used in commercial
development, not a whole lot of software. I know what
you were wanting (commercial software that works on
more desktops) well this is the real world, embedded
systems have OSes too, as well as special tools.
--David Ross

--- Lothar Scholz <mailinglists@scriptolutions.com>
wrote:

···

Hello David,

> You know. you are the biggest troll I have ever
seen
> on the mailing list. Really, stop. I'm not
kidding. It
> has all you need. Its free as well, no strings
> attached. I don't know what the hell your
problem is,
> but stop.

You can see me as confused as you are.
In your opening post you wrote:

> Has anyone tried using the WideStudio libraries
with
> Ruby? They seem to be neat and clean on the unix
...
> Please give some input on it.

So tried to give some input. I spend about 30 min -
okay it's
Sunday, so it was a little bit easier to find the
time. But
after posting my oppinion you started with this
stupid "trolling"
arguments ?

Maybe it is because:

> hope people to contribute code. I
> will create X widgets myself for commercial
purposes,
> and submit them.

and you only wanted to place a marketing message ?
Sorry for this but then you should have written your
first message
with other words and not asking for "input on it".

--
Best regards, emailto:
scholz at scriptolutions dot com
Lothar Scholz
http://www.ruby-ide.com
CTO Scriptolutions Ruby, PHP,
Python IDE 's

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33

There are certainly more widgets than whats there (even within FOX itself).
But its a lot of work, and most people are probably only interested in the
most basic widgets. If you think something is missing, feel free to add
it.... :slight_smile:

Note that I think I was fairly generous in putting some of these WideStudio
widgets next to the FOX widgets ( FXIconList <->WSCverbList )....

Sander

···

On Tuesday 03 August 2004 11:58 pm, David Ross wrote:

That is a really nice comparison chart. One question
though, What about the widgets that each has that FOX
doesnt? There are more Widgets than just those.

:P(*hehe) --David

--- Sander Jansen <sander@knology.net> wrote:
> Not impressed either.... BUT since I had nothing to
> do, I added to my GUI
> widget comparison page at the FOX Community wiki
> page. Feel free to add or
> fix any entry's.

http://fox-toolkit.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Widget_Comparison

> Sander
>
> On Sunday 01 August 2004 07:28 am, Lothar Scholz > > > > wrote:
> > Hello David,
> >
> > > Hmm.. does anyone have a MacOSX computer they
>
> can try
>
> > > out WideStudio on? I am curious to see if it
>
> is
>
> > > portable to the mac.
> >
> > > WideStudio has plenty of widgets btw. I just
>
> didn't
>
> > > play enough with the wsbuilder.
> >
> > Okay i downloaded the 100 MB Win Installer and
>
> played a bit with
>
> > wsbuilder. I must say that this toolkit can win
>
> the second price in
>
> > the most ugly toolkit competition (the first is
>
> for the all time
>
> > winner FLTK). And there is no theming to change
>
> this, looking at the
>
> > code shows me that there will be no theming for a
>
> very long time
>
> > because the drawing code is deeply buried in the
>
> source files.
>
> > I'm sure that the toolkit is more flexible, just
>
> because it uses a
>
> > TK like approach of managing/accessing attributes
>
> by string names. Maybe
>
> > not bad but quite different. The event procedures
>
> that simple
>
> > functions. So writting C++ code would require
>
> extra overhead, but it
>
> > is okay for different language bindings.
> >
> > The documentation seems not be on the state of a
>
> 3.1 release. It
>
> > describes methods but not which properties are
>
> available. There seems
>
> > to be also no real tutorial for starters. I must
>
> say that i don't
>
> > like FAQ like tutorials, that have a lot of "How
>
> to " titles but no
>
> > integrated 10 min learn the basics code.
> >
> > From the technical point i don't like that the lib
>
> has no layout
>
> > mangement (only Delphi like anchors), a very bad
>
> option for everybody
>
> > who wants to do L10N. The implemented widgets are
>
> very very basic.
>
> > As a toolkit written in Japan there are of course
>
> unicode/MBCS (?)
>
> > handling routines. From the widget design it seems
>
> to be much much
>
> > harder to write or adapt widgets as it is in
>
> FOX/QT. I just looked at
>
> > the "WSClist.cpp" source code to find a place
>
> where i can overwrite
>
> > the item draw method to use my own custom draw
>
> hook. It's not
>
> > possible. But looking at the source code, hey man
>
> that code is ugly and
>
> > completely comment free. Other things, radio+check
>
> buttons must always
>
> > be grouped, so there seems to be also no good
>
> separation for
>
> > layout/logic in the toolkit.
> >
> > So i think it is good that this is a dead project.
>
> Don't waste your
>
> > time to try to work with this toolkit. After
>
> working about 8 years
>
> > with writting GUI's i can tell you that the afford
>
> you need to bring
>
> > this upto date (compared to GTK/QT/FOX) is too
>
> expensive and i really
>
> > doubt that you will find so much programmers
>
> helping you.
>
> > Oh yes i forgot, the WxBuilder - the GUI builder -
>
> is nothing where
>
> > anybody want's to write larger dialogs.
>
> --
> "Nervous hands grip tight the knife
> In the darkness, till the cake is cut"
> - Peter Gabriel

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--
"Nervous hands grip tight the knife
In the darkness, till the cake is cut"
  - Peter Gabriel

34

Hello Rando,

Reinder Verlinde wrote:

"it works pretty well", combined with "it runs under apple's X11" really
means that it is not a Mac application at all, and Mac users will in all
likelihood not find it a suitable solution.

Reinder

You're probably right; but then again, there aren't ANY toolkits that do
any better than that for cross-platform with OSX. wxwidgets technically
works on OSX, but it's kind of a pain. I got it to compile once, but
then I couldn't get python's wxPython to work with it and gave up. (I
was trying to get the bittorrent wxPython stuff working.)

Any others that exist (Including the local ruby favorite fox) only work
under X11 anyway.

(I believe QT is actually an exception to this, and they now provide a
fully native OSX Framework. Are there ruby bindings for QT?)

The problem is different, it's not only an API question.

You simply can't generate a cross-platform GUI intensive application.
Point. Thats it. Thats what you must accept. It is possible with
Windows <-> Linux just because the Linux toolkits look much like the
windows Styleguide and where born more or less as with windows in
mind.

But it wasn't possible to port it to BeOS and it's not possible to port
it to Mac. I can only give you the recommonendation to download the
Mac Human Application Interface Guidelines.
Read it carefully and you see that you need to make design
changes for Apple and Windows. MS has accepted this and thats why MSOffice
and MSExplorer don't share the same codebase (at least for a very very
significant part of code lines).

Even QT does not much more then provide Aqua looking look. But even with QT
it's not possible to write a "write once, compile everywhere"
application. You need a specail Apple GUI abstraction layer that gives
you things like Proxy Icons, different modal window logic, menubars
without main windows etc.

···

--
Best regards, emailto: scholz at scriptolutions dot com
Lothar Scholz http://www.ruby-ide.com
CTO Scriptolutions Ruby, PHP, Python IDE 's

35

(I believe QT is actually an exception to this, and
they now provide a
fully native OSX Framework. Are there ruby bindings
for QT?)

Yes, Thank you to Lypanov.
http://raa.ruby-lang.org/project/qtruby/
This is an updated qtruby binding. It is very good. It
has the signal and slots system handled. Unfortunately
Qt is GPL'ed. So, I won't be using it unless there is
a OpenSource app I am hacking on.

--David Ross

···

--
Rando Christensen
<eyez@illuzionz.org>

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36

And i must say i don't understand your attitude,

you are fighting

against other commercial projects but always tell

us that you write

your own commerical programs/widgets. Do you really

think that

this fits together.

yes, the reason for it is that is becuase there are

infinite

possibilities of "me" :slight_smile:

Which means that you're changing your opinion as
fitting? You're
preaching water and drinking wine?

I don't know exactly know what I wrote means now :confused: I
thought it made sense. No, what you replied is not
what it was supposed to mean.

David Ross wrote:

> "Truth is important, knock down the trolls on
thier ass Only good
> people deserve respect"
>
> You know. you are the biggest troll I have ever
seen on the mailing
> list. Really, stop. I'm not kidding. It has all
you need. Its free as
> well, no strings attached. I don't know what the
hell your problem
> is, but stop. Below is my sample app I constructed
in 15 minutes
> after learning the interface. it is simple to
create than others. It
> is very flexible as well. text looks great widgets
work great, and it
> looks the same way on windows. I tried it, works
fine. THanks now
> stfu lothar_troll. Send patches Send patches. Send
patches send
> patches or shut up. You are trolling. Stop not
really.

You've done personal flames like this before and in
the
public. It damages the reputation of the Ruby
community and really
doesn't contribute anything. I'd prefer you staying
neutral, polite and
objective (which doesn't mean that you're not
allowed to have your own
opinion).

Yes. Well, it is not my fault people have to post lies
about other software and assume something is too
diificult when it is not in either case. Lies is what
makes people not want to use other software. Also, it
seems to me that l-troll uses it as a guerilla
business tatics to deal out low blows. He has no valid
statement on other IDEs since he is developing his
own, of course his will seem better to him(besides the
money).

If you think that I'm trying to troll you and want
to attack me because
of it, then please do so privately.

No, I do not. I would be glad to explain in email or
irc about what it is about.

If you want to discuss politely, then do so here.

Regards,
Florian Gross

--David Ross

···

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37

Nicholas Van Weerdenburg wrote:

I've sortof come to view my OS X box as a Mac/Java/X11/Linux(Fink ports) box, so I'm fine with GUI variations. I'm afraid I hardly notice them anymore.

A lot of mac users feel this way, myself included. Most of them, however, are those who came to OSX from linux or bsd. Many hardcore mac junkies are afraid of X11.

Though it is worth noting that I do tend to prefer a native cocoa application over an X11 port when I have the choice.

···

--
Rando Christensen
<eyez@illuzionz.org>

38

Rando Christensen wrote:

..., there aren't ANY toolkits that do
any better than that for cross-platform with OSX.

Tcl/Tk Aqua for OS X?

39

Lothar Scholz wrote:

Hello jim,

> * Lothar Scholz <mailinglists@scriptolutions.com> [2004-08-01 21:28:12 +0900]:

Okay i downloaded the 100 MB Win Installer and played a bit with
wsbuilder. I must say that this toolkit can win the second price in
the most ugly toolkit competition (the first is for the all time
winner FLTK).

> Wow. I am suprised to hear that. I always thought of FLTK as
> a fast and lean toolkit. Can you explain more.

"Fast and lean toolkit" and "nice and beautiful" are different things.
Right ? FLTK is the first but not the second. Thats what i said.

FLTK 2.0 has some theming support (don't know how much and which
quality) but FLTK 2.0 is as far away as GNU HURD.

I just tried out FLTK 1.1.5rc2 and it does indeed support "themes". But they call it "schemes" so maybe that's the source of confusion.

A picture is worth a thousand words:

Other screenshots of FLTK apps which make me think it isn't ugly:

http://www.easysw.com/htmldoc/shots.php
http://www-timc.imag.fr/Yves.Usson/personnel/FLE/calcsci1.png
http://www.osc.edu/~jbryan/VolSuite/images/screenshot.png

40

David Ross wrote:

lothar_troll was complaining, not me.

This was my point. Lothar has no obligation to fix bugs in this software just because he wants to complain about them. A lot of open source zealots love to pull this card, saying "stop complaining or fix it yourself and send the author a patch", and it's pretty annoying.

Hell, I'd go so far as to say that complaining about someone else's software without doing anything about it is one of the fundamental god-given rights of any programmer. :slight_smile:

···

--
Rando Christensen
<eyez@illuzionz.org>