Bit of the Matz Interview (in Rubyist Magazine)

I haven't translated it all yet (it's quite long to translate, and I'm just
doing this because I'm bored ^^), but here you go. Please pardon the spotty
translation, but at least it gives you an idea so far. ^^;;

-Jasmine Pues

[from Rubyist Magazine / RubiMa]

(interview with Matsumoto Yukihiro)

Notes: In every issue of RubiMa (~Rubyist Magazine) we plan to interview
famous Rubyists.
Of course, for our very first interview, we asked for an interview with the
father of Ruby,
Matsumoto Yukihiro.

Mr. Matsumoto has been interviewed previously by Linux Magazine (December
1999 issue), CNET
Japan (though it was unaired), IBM developerWorks, and Slashdot Japan;
however, for this
interview, (he seems to) want to tell us the parts that he left out of the
other interviews.

And so now we go to the place, for the interview...

-Matsumoto Yukihiro's profile

--originally from (born in) Osaka
--Enthusiast of languages (~"otaku"). He is such an otaku, he developed a
programming
language, called Ruby, by himself that would be known in places throughout
the world.
--works for ... something network? (Jas: sorry, my understanding's a bit
fuzzy here)
--has a wife and three children.
Favorite Phrase: "namae juuyou" [the importance of names]
Favorite People/Mentors: Larry Wall, Donald E. Knuth

···

--
"Life's not fair, but the root password helps."

.:.plum blossom dreaming .:.
   navi | mahou | ume

ume@lightsider.com wrote:

I haven't translated it all yet (it's quite long to translate, and I'm just
doing this because I'm bored ^^), but here you go. Please pardon the spotty
translation, but at least it gives you an idea so far. ^^;;

-Jasmine Pues

[snip]

Thanks, Jasmine! If you happen to translate any more of it, I'd love to read it.

(On an almost-related note--Japanese is pretty similar to Korean, yes? Assuming one had a basic grasp of Korean, about how hard would it be to learn Japanese, at least sufficiently to read and write it?)

- Jamis

Hi,

I haven't translated it all yet (it's quite long to translate, and I'm just
doing this because I'm bored ^^), but here you go. Please pardon the spotty
translation, but at least it gives you an idea so far. ^^;;

Thank you for the work.

--works for ... something network? (Jas: sorry, my understanding's a bit
fuzzy here)

A company named "Network Applied Communication Laboratory (Network
Ouyou Tsuushin Kenkyuujo) or "netlab.jp".

--has a wife and three children.

And going to be four.

              matz.

···

In message "Re: Bit of the Matz Interview (in Rubyist Magazine)" on Thu, 7 Oct 2004 07:12:22 +0900, <ume@lightsider.com> writes:

ume@lightsider.com ha scritto:

I haven't translated it all yet (it's quite long to translate, and I'm just
doing this because I'm bored ^^), but here you go. Please pardon the spotty
translation, but at least it gives you an idea so far. ^^;;

-Jasmine Pues

<snip>

go on we all are grateful to a certain degree :slight_smile:

<snip>

Your original post reminds me -- I've recently signed on to translate articles
from Rubima. The translations will likely appear in the first issue of
Rubyzine.

--Steve, already falling far behind in reading ruby-talk posts

···

--- ume@lightsider.com wrote:

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Hi,

(On an almost-related note--Japanese is pretty similar to Korean, yes?
Assuming one had a basic grasp of Korean, about how hard would it be to
learn Japanese, at least sufficiently to read and write it?)

We are pretty similar. I can't distinguish Korean from Japanese until
they speak. We are similar to Chinese too. :wink:

For languages, I've heard that basic syntax is similar. I know some
Koreans who have learned to speak Japanese very quickly. Reading and
writing is harder because we have totally different writing system.
I wish natural languages are as easy as programming ones.

              matz.

···

In message "Re: Bit of the Matz Interview (in Rubyist Magazine)" on Thu, 7 Oct 2004 07:59:19 +0900, Jamis Buck <jgb3@email.byu.edu> writes:

May I ask, Matz: what does this laboratory work on? And what led it
to employ you as a language creator?

Thanks,
Gavin

···

On Thursday, October 7, 2004, 9:17:59 AM, Yukihiro wrote:

>--works for ... something network? (Jas: sorry, my understanding's a bit
>fuzzy here)

A company named "Network Applied Communication Laboratory (Network
Ouyou Tsuushin Kenkyuujo) or "netlab.jp".

Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

Hi,

>--has a wife and three children.

And going to be four.

Well then, congratulations!

jmh

···

In message "Re: Bit of the Matz Interview (in Rubyist Magazine)" > on Thu, 7 Oct 2004 07:12:22 +0900, <ume@lightsider.com> writes:

Jamis Buck <jgb3@email.byu.edu> wrote in message news:<41647522.4060103@email.byu.edu>...
[...]

(On an almost-related note--Japanese is pretty similar to Korean, yes?
Assuming one had a basic grasp of Korean, about how hard would it be to
learn Japanese, at least sufficiently to read and write it?)

Korean and Japanese are *very* similar in grammar and in pronunciation.
So, if you speak Korean, it shouldn't be very difficult to learn to
speak Japanese. Although I have only superficial knowlegde about
Korean, everyone who knows both languages well says the same.

Unfortunately, that doesn't mean you can easily learn to read and
write Japanese even if you read and write Korean fluently. The
problem is that the Japanese language uses Chinese characters
extensively, while modern Korean is usually written without Chinese
characters. I know this from Korean friends of mine who speak fluent
Japanese and yet have difficulty in reading and writing Japanese.

By the way, I'm a native speaker of Japanese.

Cheers,
Ryo

speak. We are similar to Chinese too. :wink:

For languages, I've heard that basic syntax is similar. I know some
Koreans who have learned to speak Japanese very quickly. Reading and
writing is harder because we have totally different writing system.
I wish natural languages are as easy as programming ones.

Matz, if one wanted to learn just enough Japanese to _barely_
understand what's being discussed on the Japanese mailing lists, which
of the writing systems would be best to start with? From what our
friends at RubyConf told me, _all_ of them are used all of the time.
Is that true for the mailing list too?

My project for next year is to learn Japanese well enough to skim
through for keywords in the mailing lists (if not more) and to be able
to speak basically to my family in Japan :slight_smile:

Thanks,
Chad

···

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:27:08 +0900, Yukihiro Matsumoto <matz@ruby-lang.org> wrote:

Hi,

May I ask, Matz: what does this laboratory work on? And what led it
to employ you as a language creator?

It's a company named "laboratory", not a laboratory owned by any other
company. We are researching .. well .. how to run business on open
source software, for example, Ruby. That explains the reason they
hire me.

              matz.
p.s.
It's not unusual in Japan to name a company "foo bar laboratory" that
does not do actual research things.

···

In message "Re: Bit of the Matz Interview (in Rubyist Magazine)" on Thu, 7 Oct 2004 10:45:13 +0900, Gavin Sinclair <gsinclair@soyabean.com.au> writes:

Yukihiro Matsumoto ha scritto:

I wish natural languages are as easy as programming ones.

please note:

and

also named "japanese for nerds" and widely known for expressing japanese in BNF :slight_smile:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:24:49 +0900, Ryo Furue
<furufuru@ccsr.u-tokyo.ac.jp> wrote (among other things):

Korean and Japanese are *very* similar in grammar and in pronunciation.
So, if you speak Korean, it shouldn't be very difficult to learn to
speak Japanese. Although I have only superficial knowlegde about
Korean, everyone who knows both languages well says the same.

The grammar is definitely close, but I'd disagree that the
pronunciations of the two languages are "*very* similar". True,
Korean pronunciation is closer to Japanese than, say, English or
French. But Korean has many more vowel sounds than Japanese, although
I suspect that the differences aren't easily noticeable to a native
Japanese speaker. For example, both "Ichon" (the name of a station in
the centre of Seoul) and "Icheon" (another town, 60km to the south)
would be pronounced as "ichon" in Japanese, which could lead to some
confusion! On the other hand, Koreans have a hard time with Japanese
"tsu" and "z" sounds, which unfortunately sounds rather like the
pronunciation of young Japanese children! For an English speaker,
most of the sounds of Japanese are fairly easy to pronounce; "tsu" and
"ryo" etc. (hint: it's not pronounced "Rio" :slight_smile: seem generally to be a
problem, though.

However, since about 80% (I seem to recall) of the Korean vocabulary
is Chinese-character-derived, and the situation in Japanese is about
the same, there are a lot of similar words between the two languages.
It's possible to work things out in the "other" language if you take
account of some simple rules (not an exhaustive or scientific list;
just off the top of my head):
Korean (official RoK romanisation) <-> Japanese (Hepburn romanisation)
eo <-> e
~l <-> ~tsu
h~ <-> k~ (sometimes)
~ng <-> long vowel
~k <-> ~ki or ~ku

e.g. (dots added at Chinese character boundaries for clarity)
ji.ha.cheol <-> chi.ka.tetsu (subway)
hak.saeng <-> gaku.sei (student)
do.seo.gwan <-> to.sho.kan (library)
mu.seon <-> mu.sen (wireless)
yeok <-> eki (station)
If you take account that a voiced consonant at the start of a Korean
word is actually pronounced unvoiced (d -> t; j -> ch) then they sound
quite similar.

Personally, speaking Japanese but little Korean, I find the lack of
Chinese characters ("hanja" in Korean) more confusing, even though
hangeul (the Korean phonetic writing system) is very easy to learn and
read. If you go to Tapgol Park (aka Pagoda Park) in Seoul, you can
see the Declaration of Korean Independence, written in mixed
hangeul-hanja script. Generally, however, you won't see much mixed
script in either Korea these days.

When Chinese characters are used in Korean, though they are the
complex, traditional kind, which means that they are often difficult
for Japanese to read. (Japanese uses many simplified characters,
which are simplified differently to the PRC, but that's another
story.) Sometimes, Koreans use the traditional characters when
writing Japanese, such as in restaurant menus and on some of the
Japanese signs at Incheon airport. I suppose that it must be
confusing for the Japanese, who generally are not familiar with the
old forms.

Unfortunately, that doesn't mean you can easily learn to read and
write Japanese even if you read and write Korean fluently. The
problem is that the Japanese language uses Chinese characters
extensively, while modern Korean is usually written without Chinese
characters. I know this from Korean friends of mine who speak fluent
Japanese and yet have difficulty in reading and writing Japanese.

Chinese characters are hard, no matter what you do, although they
aren't as crazy as they seem at first: they are essentially "spelled"
from slightly more than 200 different components ("radicals"). Once
you've learned the components and their variations, it gets a lot
easier.

Personally, I'd advise you to concentrate on learning speaking first:
it's a lot easier to learn to read a language when you already
understand it.

Paul.

Quoteing matz@ruby-lang.org, on Thu, Oct 07, 2004 at 08:27:08AM +0900:

···

In message "Re: Bit of the Matz Interview (in Rubyist Magazine)" > on Thu, 7 Oct 2004 07:59:19 +0900, Jamis Buck <jgb3@email.byu.edu> writes:

>(On an almost-related note--Japanese is pretty similar to Korean, yes?
>Assuming one had a basic grasp of Korean, about how hard would it be to
>learn Japanese, at least sufficiently to read and write it?)

We are pretty similar. I can't distinguish Korean from Japanese until
they speak. We are similar to Chinese too. :wink:

For languages, I've heard that basic syntax is similar. I know some

I think they sound similar, too. I lived in Japan a year, and I can tell
when people are speaking Korean because it sounds Japanese, but I don't
understand a single word!

Sam

I've seen a lot of kanji (the borrowed Chinese characters) in these types of
things. But, perhaps kana would be best (hiragana). Those two are the most
important, I think (for understanding verbs and grammar also).

But that is just what I have noticed.

-Jasmine

···

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:27:08 +0900, Yukihiro Matsumoto > <matz@ruby-lang.org> wrote:
speak. We are similar to Chinese too. :wink:

For languages, I've heard that basic syntax is similar. I know some
Koreans who have learned to speak Japanese very quickly. Reading and
writing is harder because we have totally different writing system. I
wish natural languages are as easy as programming ones.

Matz, if one wanted to learn just enough Japanese to _barely_
understand what's being discussed on the Japanese mailing lists, which
of the writing systems would be best to start with? From what our
friends at RubyConf told me, _all_ of them are used all of the time.
Is that true for the mailing list too?

My project for next year is to learn Japanese well enough to skim
through for keywords in the mailing lists (if not more) and to be able
to speak basically to my family in Japan :slight_smile:

Thanks,
Chad

--
"Life's not fair, but the root password helps."

.:.plum blossom dreaming .:.
   navi | mahou | ume

Hi,

Matz, if one wanted to learn just enough Japanese to _barely_
understand what's being discussed on the Japanese mailing lists, which
of the writing systems would be best to start with? From what our
friends at RubyConf told me, _all_ of them are used all of the time.
Is that true for the mailing list too?

Do you mean Hiragana, Katakata, and Kanji?

Unfortunately we use all of them (plus Roman alphabets) in our daily
communication. Lack of any will hinder Japanese understanding very
badly. I feel sorry, but this time it's not _my_ design mistake.

My project for next year is to learn Japanese well enough to skim
through for keywords in the mailing lists (if not more) and to be able
to speak basically to my family in Japan :slight_smile:

There are some tools to convert Kanjis into Hiraganas (kakasi, for
example). It might be help for Japanese beginners.

              matz.

···

In message "Re: Bit of the Matz Interview (in Rubyist Magazine)" on Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:48:14 +0900, Chad Fowler <chadfowler@gmail.com> writes:

Chad Fowler wrote:

···

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 08:27:08 +0900, Yukihiro Matsumoto > <matz@ruby-lang.org> wrote:
speak. We are similar to Chinese too. :wink:

For languages, I've heard that basic syntax is similar. I know some
Koreans who have learned to speak Japanese very quickly. Reading and
writing is harder because we have totally different writing system.
I wish natural languages are as easy as programming ones.

Matz, if one wanted to learn just enough Japanese to _barely_
understand what's being discussed on the Japanese mailing lists, which
of the writing systems would be best to start with? From what our
friends at RubyConf told me, _all_ of them are used all of the time. Is that true for the mailing list too?

My project for next year is to learn Japanese well enough to skim
through for keywords in the mailing lists (if not more) and to be able
to speak basically to my family in Japan :slight_smile:

This is pretty much my goal, too. I'm not too worried about speaking/listening skills (although from what matz said, those might come more easily for me), but being able to read/write Japanese at a basic level (as Chad said--enough to skim the lists for relevant keywords) would be wonderful.

- Jamis

Cool. Interested in hiring this gaijin to help?

-- Matt
It's not what I know that counts, it's what I can remember in time to use.

···

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004, Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

It's a company named "laboratory", not a laboratory owned by any other
company. We are researching .. well .. how to run business on open
source software, for example, Ruby. That explains the reason they
hire me.

Paul Battley wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:24:49 +0900, Ryo Furue

[snip]

Personally, I'd advise you to concentrate on learning speaking first:
it's a lot easier to learn to read a language when you already
understand it.

Paul.

Wonderful exposition, Paul. Thanks for the info. Your statement that "most of the sounds of Japanese are fairly easy to pronounce" is encouraging, since I found the Korean glottal consonants (in particular) difficult to say correctly. The different between, say, "ssal" (rice) and "sal" (flesh) is extremely subtle, to my ears. I'm sure I made more than a few Koreans snicker when I asked how old their moon was, when I was trying to say daughter. :slight_smile:

As for learning to speak it first... things like speaking and listening are, in my experience, much easier to learn when you have someone else handy to speak or listen to. Learning to speak "in a vacuum", as it were, seems like it would be harder than just learning to read or write.

It's kind of a moot question for me, at this point, since I don't really have the time to learn either speaking, or writing, right now. :frowning:

···

--
Jamis Buck
jgb3@email.byu.edu
http://www.jamisbuck.org/jamis

My project for next year is to learn Japanese well enough to skim
through for keywords in the mailing lists (if not more) and to be able
to speak basically to my family in Japan :slight_smile:

I've been learning japanese for two years.

If you learn to be able to read, I would personnally advice you to learn full japanese or nothing. You should not think of "saving time" by learning some writing systems and not others.

I have experienced it is finally a waste of time.

There are basically four writing systems :
roman
hiragana
katakana
kanji (chinese characters)

The first three ones are not very difficult to learn. But, for foreigners, the big thing is "kanjis". (The book "Remembering the kanjis" may help you to rembember the meaning of thoses caracters)

I also think it is much easier to read sentences with kanjis. They allow you to recognize the structure of sentences. Without them, it would just be as though you were deciphering an english text written phonetically only...(good orthograph allows to figure out sentences faster).

And as the time goes on, you'll be able to associate vocabulary and kanjis.