Bit of the Matz Interview (in Rubyist Magazine)

Paul Battley <pbattley@gmail.com> wrote in message news:<2ab6a502041007060729ee3110@mail.gmail.com>...

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:24:49 +0900, Ryo Furue
<furufuru@ccsr.u-tokyo.ac.jp> wrote (among other things):
> Korean and Japanese are *very* similar in grammar and in pronunciation.

[...]

The grammar is definitely close, but I'd disagree that the
pronunciations of the two languages are "*very* similar". True,
Korean pronunciation is closer to Japanese than, say, English or
French. [... good examples of the differences ...]

We don't disagree. We are merely disagreeing on the definition of
what is meant by "*very* similar". In fact I know all those differences
you mention. If you focus on each sound, you'll find siginificant
differences, as you pointed out. On the other hand, as you also agree,
in a broader picture, among the world languages like, say, Arabic,
Chinese, English, French, Hebrew, Hindy, Japanese, and Korean
(alphabetical order), Japanese and Korean are very similar in
pronunciations. You often here these languages on Radio and TV
and on the streets. If you ask me which sounds the most like Japanese,
I'll say it's Korean.

Judging from my observations, Koreans are generally the best non-native
Japanese speakers. (I'm not talking about Koreans who grew up under
the Japanese occupation before WWII. I'm talking about young Koreans.)
If you compare a Korean whose Japanese isn't fluent with an American
or a Frenchperson who speaks extremely fluent Japanese, it's usually
the Korean whose Japanese *pronunciation* is better. I guess that
that's because the *system* of pronunciations is similar between the
two languages, differences in each sound notwithstanding.

Cheers,
Ryo

Yukihiro Matsumoto <matz@ruby-lang.org> writes:

There are some tools to convert Kanjis into Hiraganas (kakasi, for
example). It might be help for Japanese beginners.

My experience is that they don't work very well. Instead, I think all
Japanese posters to ruby mailing lists should use furigana. :slight_smile:

Just kidding, honest! But is there a CJK input method that allows for
furigana, or something similar? How do Japanese people indicate the
way to read their name, for instance, if it's an unusual reading?

-=Eric

···

--
Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million
typewriters, and Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare.
    -- Blair Houghton.

Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

There are some tools to convert Kanjis into Hiraganas (kakasi, for
example). It might be help for Japanese beginners.

I am sure there are sites/tools out there which will teach how to read /
write Japanese (for beginners, especially children).

Any suggestions?

I am curious to know how reading is taught in schools ... do they start
       with a specific writing system?

-- shanko

Jamis Buck wrote:

As for learning to speak it first... things like speaking and listening are, in my experience, much easier to learn when you have someone else handy to speak or listen to. Learning to speak "in a vacuum", as it were, seems like it would be harder than just learning to read or write.

It's kind of a moot question for me, at this point, since I don't really have the time to learn either speaking, or writing, right now. :frowning:

I have been learning Japanese for a few years now through a combination of cds/tapes and books. I bought the Pimsleur Japanese I set on cd (which I'd be willing to sell...) and then checked out levels II and III that you can do in the car. And that's what I did. I would do a lesson on the way to work in the morning. Then in the afternoon I'd either do that one again, if I didn't feel like I got it, or move on to the next one. Sure I looked funny to passers-by, but who cares? I learned a lot from doing it.

The "problem" with courses like this is that they teach you things at times without a good explanation of /why /something is so. For example, they don't explicitly explain the various patterns of verb conjugation. You can certainly discern those patterns, but they are not explicit. And they only teach the polite verb/adjective endings; this isn't really a problem since a visitor to Japan would use the polite level of speech anyway, but it can be frustrating when speaking with a Japanese friend who might quickly start using the familiar forms with you instead of the polite forms. Not a huge thing, just something to be aware of.

If anyone wants to ask me any questions about the Pimsleur tapes, I'd be happy to answer them. I have no affiliation with Pimsleur, other than being a happy customer.

Joey

···

from my local library. These are collections of 30 half-hour lessons

--
She drove a Plymouth Satellite
Faster than the Speed of Light...

http://www.joeygibson.com/blog

Atlanta Ruby User Group http://www.AtlRUG.org

"Rerembering the Kanji" by Heisig is a good way
for adult westerners to start learning Kanji.
A common misconception it that westerners
must learn Japanese in the same manner in which
Japanese children learned, by rote and exposure.
Heisig rebelled against this idea, went off on his
own, and successfuly created an alternative system
which relies on mnemonics.
   
Some people like Heisig's method, others declare it worthless.

In my own case, I spent a year with vol 1 of Rerembering the Kanji,
studying for about 30-40 minutes a day, 3 to 4 times a week.
I took longer than average in order to practice drawing
the characters properly.

I learned how to draw them, and learned the radicals and basic
components of the more complicated Kanji. Heisig gives very
specific instructions on how they are to be learned and in what
order. He avoids burdening one's memory by putting off learning
the reading(s) of the Kanji until vol. 2 of his 3 volume series.

You don't become fluent in Japanese or fluent in reading or any
such thing after finishing Heisig book 1, but it does put you in a
position
where the additional knowledge you need in order to get to higher
levels
of capability now becomes much easier to acquire.

Heisig also wrote a couple of short books on using mnemonic techniqes
to
learn the katakana and hiragana but I used my own mnemonic technique
to learn the
katakana by making odd (and somewhat stretched) analogies with their
equivalent
English letters - for example, flip the Katakana symbol for "A" about
a vertical
axis and you end up with a rough approximation of the English letter
"A".
Another example, almost a freebie, the Katakana for N almost looks
like a written English letter "n" with the leading stroke perhaps a
bit too long.

In volume ll of Heisig's Rerembering the Kanji, he goes into the
derivations
of the Hiragana too, but long before I read that, I had invented
another set of
observational mnemonics to help me there too - but each person should
invent these themselves since relationals that have meaning for one
person often are nonsense to another.

Likewise, though it does'nt jive with Heisig and I think he warns
somewhere against overdoing the practice, you can spot visual things
in the Kanji - I think he himself does this in a few cases. In my
case, I used to have trouble, at first, in rerembering how to draw the
Kanji for the numbers 4 and 5 until I looked closely and realized that
both numerals where embedded in their respective Kanji! For example
in the Kanji for "4" are 2 misshapen numeral "4"'s, the right one a
mirror image of the left.
Number 7, of course is retained instantly since it looks like an
arabic numeral 7 upside down with a line drawn thru it.

Hope this helps.

Jim

Mathieu Blondel <matt@enlevemoica.ffworld.com> wrote in message news:<41658cfd$0$10254$636a15ce@news.free.fr>...

···

> My project for next year is to learn Japanese well enough to skim
> through for keywords in the mailing lists (if not more) and to be able
> to speak basically to my family in Japan :slight_smile:

I've been learning japanese for two years.

If you learn to be able to read, I would personnally advice you to learn
full japanese or nothing. You should not think of "saving time" by
learning some writing systems and not others.

I have experienced it is finally a waste of time.

There are basically four writing systems :
roman
hiragana
katakana
kanji (chinese characters)

The first three ones are not very difficult to learn. But, for
foreigners, the big thing is "kanjis". (The book "Remembering the
kanjis" may help you to rembember the meaning of thoses caracters)

I also think it is much easier to read sentences with kanjis. They allow
you to recognize the structure of sentences. Without them, it would just
be as though you were deciphering an english text written phonetically
only...(good orthograph allows to figure out sentences faster).

And as the time goes on, you'll be able to associate vocabulary and kanjis.

Hi,

Just kidding, honest! But is there a CJK input method that allows for
furigana, or something similar? How do Japanese people indicate the
way to read their name, for instance, if it's an unusual reading?

They use furigana, if their names are really unusual. But it's rare
case since our names are not mix cultured as American names. Besides
that, it's popular among us Japanese Ruby community to write our names
in Hiraganas. I'm one of them.

By the way, furigana (small letters to show pronounce along with the
text) is often called as "Ruby" from its font size (5.5pt). Now we
are back to the list topic. :wink:

              matz.

···

In message "Re: Bit of the Matz Interview (in Rubyist Magazine)" on Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:24:48 +0900, Eric Schwartz <emschwar@pobox.com> writes:

Hi,

···

In message "Re: Bit of the Matz Interview (in Rubyist Magazine)" on Wed, 06 Oct 2004 21:48:18 -0500, Shashank Date <sdate@everestkc.net> writes:

I am curious to know how reading is taught in schools ... do they start
with a specific writing system?

Yes, they learn Hiragana and Katakana first. My 7 year old
son does not read any Kanji.

I'm curious about how Chinese children learn to write, since
they have no phonetic writing system.

              matz.

Jamis Buck wrote:

> As for learning to speak it first... things like speaking and
> listening are, in my experience, much easier to learn when you have
> someone else handy to speak or listen to. Learning to speak "in a
> vacuum", as it were, seems like it would be harder than just learning
> to read or write.
>
> It's kind of a moot question for me, at this point, since I don't
> really have the time to learn either speaking, or writing, right now. :frowning:

I have been learning Japanese for a few years now through a combination
of cds/tapes and books. I bought the Pimsleur Japanese I set on cd
(which I'd be willing to sell...) and then checked out levels II and III
from my local library. These are collections of 30 half-hour lessons
that you can do in the car. And that's what I did. I would do a lesson
on the way to work in the morning. Then in the afternoon I'd either do
that one again, if I didn't feel like I got it, or move on to the next
one. Sure I looked funny to passers-by, but who cares? I learned a lot
from doing it.

The "problem" with courses like this is that they teach you things at
times without a good explanation of /why /something is so. For example,
they don't explicitly explain the various patterns of verb conjugation.
You can certainly discern those patterns, but they are not explicit. And
they only teach the polite verb/adjective endings; this isn't really a
problem since a visitor to Japan would use the polite level of speech
anyway, but it can be frustrating when speaking with a Japanese friend
who might quickly start using the familiar forms with you instead of the
polite forms. Not a huge thing, just something to be aware of.

this is why i do not care for the pimsleur method. as peter payne
[http://www.peterpayne.net/\] once described on the different learning
styles, my mind works much better with the substitution method. e.g.
taberu -> tabenai -> tabemasu -> tabemasen -> tabemashita -> tabete...
(sorry for the romaji; someday all email will use utf-8.)

kodansha publishes many great books on learning japanese. bonjinsha
has excellent kanji books, now in english translation (e.g. basic
kanji 500). popular textbooks include the ones from hawaii
university, nakama, and youkoso; of which i'd probably recommend
nakama most of all, but i started on the hawaii-u books.

for learning the glyphs (alphabets), frankly the best method is to
practice writing them all out everyday for at least 3-4 months. _do
not learn with romaji_, it'll mess-up your brain. start with
hiragana, then katakana, then kanji.

-z

···

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 23:06:59 +0900, Joey Gibson <joey@joeygibson.com> wrote:

If anyone wants to ask me any questions about the Pimsleur tapes, I'd be
happy to answer them. I have no affiliation with Pimsleur, other than
being a happy customer.

Joey

--
She drove a Plymouth Satellite
Faster than the Speed of Light...

http://www.joeygibson.com/blog
Wisdom From Unexpected Places | Joey Gibson's Blog
Atlanta Ruby User Group http://www.AtlRUG.org

ICU (International Components for Unicode) has a transformation that
allows you to convert Unicode Kanji, Katakana, and Hiragana to Romanji
reasonably reliably.

-austin

···

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:24:48 +0900, Eric Schwartz <emschwar@pobox.com> wrote:

Yukihiro Matsumoto <matz@ruby-lang.org> writes:
> There are some tools to convert Kanjis into Hiraganas (kakasi, for
> example). It might be help for Japanese beginners.

My experience is that they don't work very well. Instead, I think all
Japanese posters to ruby mailing lists should use furigana. :slight_smile:

Just kidding, honest! But is there a CJK input method that allows for
furigana, or something similar? How do Japanese people indicate the
way to read their name, for instance, if it's an unusual reading?

--
Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com
               * Alternate: austin@halostatue.ca
: as of this email, I have [ 6 ] Gmail invitations

In my own case, I spent a year with vol 1 of Rerembering the Kanji,
studying for about 30-40 minutes a day, 3 to 4 times a week.
I took longer than average in order to practice drawing
the characters properly.

Having never seen Heisig's books, I can't express an opinion on them,
but you make a good point here: it's very important to practise
writing kanji. Not only is it a very useful memory aid, it's also
handy when you have to write something without the aid of a computer!

Another example, almost a freebie, the Katakana for N almost looks
like a written English letter "n" with the leading stroke perhaps a
bit too long.

Surely a typo: you are referring to the *hiragana* syllable "n".

Number 7, of course is retained instantly since it looks like an
arabic numeral 7 upside down with a line drawn thru it.

...or even simpler: a European 7 upside down!

Regarding trying to remember kanji visually, I think that it is very
difficult. Even the characters that were originally pictorial (a
fraction) have been stylised over millennia beyond recognition...
except for "kushi" (shish kebab), that is:
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/jwb/wwwjdic?1MKU4e32
Trivia note: you can use that character to indicate a proxy. In
Japanese, proxy is "purokushii" which contains the sounds "kushi".
Why the character for "mackerel" means "server" is left as an exercise
for the assiduous reader...

Paul.

···

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 07:24:37 +0900, Questioner <james_pannozzi@cisgi.com> wrote:

Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

Hi,

>Just kidding, honest! But is there a CJK input method that allows for
>furigana, or something similar? How do Japanese people indicate the
>way to read their name, for instance, if it's an unusual reading?

They use furigana, if their names are really unusual. But it's rare
case since our names are not mix cultured as American names. Besides
that, it's popular among us Japanese Ruby community to write our names
in Hiraganas. I'm one of them.

By the way, furigana (small letters to show pronounce along with the
text) is often called as "Ruby" from its font size (5.5pt). Now we
are back to the list topic. :wink:

When I first tried to google for Ruby that was the subject of the first couple of links I opened. Is the use of the
same name purely coincidental or is the a connection? I
wondered about that but never thought to ask.

jmh

···

In message "Re: Bit of the Matz Interview (in Rubyist Magazine)" > on Thu, 7 Oct 2004 09:24:48 +0900, Eric Schwartz <emschwar@pobox.com> writes:

Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

Hi,

>I am curious to know how reading is taught in schools ... do they start
>with a specific writing system?

Yes, they learn Hiragana and Katakana first. My 7 year old
son does not read any Kanji.

I'm curious about how Chinese children learn to write, since
they have no phonetic writing system.

              matz.

They learn how to write the basic strokes, the order you write a character, start writing basic characters, then complex characters.

For speaking they do use a phonetic system that starts with "ba pa ma fa", and Taiwan have special set of symbols for those sounds.

Robo

···

In message "Re: Bit of the Matz Interview (in Rubyist Magazine)" > on Wed, 06 Oct 2004 21:48:18 -0500, Shashank Date <sdate@everestkc.net> writes:

Quoteing sean.zuzu@gmail.com, on Thu, Oct 07, 2004 at 11:45:42PM +0900:

> Jamis Buck wrote:

> I have been learning Japanese for a few years now through a combination
> of cds/tapes and books. I bought the Pimsleur Japanese I set on cd
> (which I'd be willing to sell...) and then checked out levels II and III
> from my local library. These are collections of 30 half-hour lessons
> that you can do in the car. And that's what I did. I would do a lesson
> on the way to work in the morning. Then in the afternoon I'd either do
> that one again, if I didn't feel like I got it, or move on to the next
> one. Sure I looked funny to passers-by, but who cares? I learned a lot
> from doing it.
>
> The "problem" with courses like this is that they teach you things at
> times without a good explanation of /why /something is so. For example,
> they don't explicitly explain the various patterns of verb conjugation.

I agree, I think this is because Japanese is taught to English speakers
the way English is taught to Japanese speakers, or how
French/Spanish/etc. are taught to English speakers.

This is a problem, because Japanese is an /incredibly/ regular and
consistent language. I taught myself (living in Japan, and knowing only
native Japanese speakers, mind you), and basically I learned from:

Handbook of Modern Japanse Grammer, Yoko Matsuoka McClain, The
Hokuseido Press

I can't say enough good things about this book. Anybody who likes
computer languages will like it.

Its presentation of verb conjugation, alone, was so simple, and yet
people in my second year japanese class (I took it when I got back from
japan in a vain attempt to not forget what I had known) weren't even
aware that verb conjugation was so systematic!

I've studied French all through high school, I've had a Quebecois
girlfriend for 3 years now, and only recently has my French become as
good as my Japanese was after a year in Japan, working through this
book. :frowning:

Cheers,
Sam

···

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 23:06:59 +0900, Joey Gibson <joey@joeygibson.com> wrote:

> > There are some tools to convert Kanjis into Hiraganas (kakasi, for
> > example). It might be help for Japanese beginners.

...

ICU (International Components for Unicode) has a transformation that
allows you to convert Unicode Kanji, Katakana, and Hiragana to Romanji
reasonably reliably.

There appears to be quite a choice of packages when it comes to trying
to analyse Japanese text and to produce automatic furigana.

There's a table on the MeCab page comparing the operation of four
Japanese morphological analysers, though not ICU:
http://chasen.org/~taku/software/mecab/#diff
(Caveat: it's in Japanese.)

Paul.

Hi,

···

In message "Re: Bit of the Matz Interview (in Rubyist Magazine)" on Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:24:48 +0900, jmh <j_m_h@cox.net> writes:

Is the use of the
same name purely coincidental or is the a connection? I
wondered about that but never thought to ask.

It's coincident. We call them "rubi" (in katakana). I didn't know it
was named after the font named after the gem, at the time I named the
language. Hmm, naming is a complex job.

By the way, did you know that 5pt font name is Perl.., I mean, Pearl.
I couldn't believe Pearl is smaller than Ruby (5.5pt). :wink:

              matz.

Hi,

>Is the use of the
>same name purely coincidental or is the a connection? I
>wondered about that but never thought to ask.

It's coincident. We call them "rubi" (in katakana). I didn't know it
was named after the font named after the gem, at the time I named the
language. Hmm, naming is a complex job.

i'd only heard of them as furigana until the W3C released a standard
extension for this functionality in HTML (all XML?) and referred to it
as "ruby". apparently it stems from printed book terminology and
probably applies to more language other than just kanji on/kun
readings.

By the way, did you know that 5pt font name is Perl.., I mean, Pearl.
I couldn't believe Pearl is smaller than Ruby (5.5pt). :wink:

                                                       matz.

-z

···

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:50:44 +0900, Yukihiro Matsumoto <matz@ruby-lang.org> wrote:

In message "Re: Bit of the Matz Interview (in Rubyist Magazine)" > on Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:24:48 +0900, jmh <j_m_h@cox.net> writes:

Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

By the way, did you know that 5pt font name is Perl.., I mean, Pearl.
I couldn't believe Pearl is smaller than Ruby (5.5pt). :wink:

The "ruby" type size, by the way, is (was) called "agate" in the US. However, as far as I know, the Japanese phonetic renderings are called "ruby".

···

--
John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract,
Man only earns and pays."
   -- Charles Williams. "Bors to Elayne: On the King's Coins"

Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

By the way, did you know that 5pt font name is Perl.., I mean, Pearl.
I couldn't believe Pearl is smaller than Ruby (5.5pt). :wink:

              matz.

5.5pt huh? No surprise there. We all know that Perl is essentially unreadable...

Ben