I have abour 3 or 4 years experience with Linux, and about 2 years
experience with Java, recently though I decided to quit learning Java
because I found it rather slow and lacking, the biggest problem is that Sun
Microsystems made to many libraries for some functions and not enough for
other functions, they also have quite a few bugs that are noticable when one
tries to apply custom effects to GUI’s such as setting colours with
…setBackground() and .setForeground() forsetting the colours. I am now
looking for one or two alternative programming languages to replace Java, I
am mostly interested in C, C++, Ruby, Python and Perl. What I would like to
know is which one would be better off in your opinion(s), one of the things
I concider important in a programming language is weather or not its good
enough to get me a job in programming. I look forward to your reply(s) 
[snip]
I am mostly interested in C, C++, Ruby, Python and Perl. What I would
like to know is which one would be better off in your opinion(s),
one of the things I concider important in a programming language is
weather or not its good enough to get me a job in programming. I
look forward to your reply(s)
Well, in its strictest form your question is impossible to answer.
Some of the best languages are the ones least likely to get you a job
in programming. 
IMHO, the best language is Ruby. I like C a lot too, but I use it
mostly as a complement to Ruby.
The langauges that are most likely to give you a job are C++, Java and
Perl.
Web programming is usually done in Java or Perl (depending on whether
it’s client side or server side respectively). Application programming
is done in C++.
Perhaps you should explain more clearly what you have in mind.
···
On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 09:22:02AM +0900, anonimous wrote:
–
Daniel Carrera
Graduate Teaching Assistant. Math Dept.
University of Maryland. (301) 405-5137
In article b4gklc$o21$1@nntp-stjh-01-01.rogers.nf.net,
I have abour 3 or 4 years experience with Linux, and about 2 years
experience with Java, recently though I decided to quit learning Java
because I found it rather slow and lacking, the biggest problem is that Sun
Microsystems made to many libraries for some functions and not enough for
other functions, they also have quite a few bugs that are noticable when one
tries to apply custom effects to GUI’s such as setting colours with
.setBackground() and .setForeground() forsetting the colours. I am now
looking for one or two alternative programming languages to replace Java, I
am mostly interested in C, C++, Ruby, Python and Perl. What I would like to
know is which one would be better off in your opinion(s), one of the things
I concider important in a programming language is weather or not its good
enough to get me a job in programming. I look forward to your reply(s)
Welcome,
Of course we’re pretty biased toward Ruby being your next programming
language 
I think you’ll find Ruby’s libraries a lot more compact than Java’s.
Also, you’ll generally find that you can do the same program in Ruby with
about 1/2 to 1/3 of the lines as the equivlient Java program (with no hit
to readability as you would have in Perl).
Now as to your point about which language to learn in order to find a job
in programming:
- Right now there aren’t many jobs in programming and there are lots of
very experienced folks out there who know several of the languages you
list (quite well) and are not finding work… so in the short term, don’t
expect to find a job in programming unless you’ve got several years of
experience - you’re competing against folks who have lots of experience. - After reading and considering #1, learn C++ - when the job market does
eventually return (someyear - a year ago I said “In a year”, now I make no
predictions other than it definately won’t be anytime this year.) Knowing
C++ still gets you into the most number of places. - Now, after considering #2, forget about which programming language will
get you a job and think about which programming language will cause you to
learn something about the practice of programming. I would suggest that
Ruby is an excellent choice for this. (and one can argue that you’ve got
plenty of time to do this) You’ll definately learn object oriented
programming with Ruby and it will definately have a different flavor than
OO programming you’ve dont in Java because Ruby isn’t statically typed.
OO programming in Ruby ‘feels’ much different than it does in C++ or Java
and it’s a very positive feeling, IMHO. [That’s not to say that there are
no Ruby jobs out there, but the number of jobs that list Ruby as a
requirement is still very small. However, I’ve found Ruby in lots of
places where I didn’t expect to find it - Ruby is being snuk in the
backdoor at lots of places kind of like Perl was 8-10 years ago.]
You mention that Java is slow. I’m assuming you mean that programs
written in Java are slow to execute. You definately won’t find Ruby
faster than Java for most things. However, it’s quite easy to write
extentions for Ruby in C/C++ (another reason to learn C/C++) such that you
use C/C++ for speed critical parts of your code and Ruby for the parts you
want ot develop quickly.
Phil
···
anonimous n.thomp@roadrunner.nf.net wrote:
Unfortunately, the quality of the language is not related to the employability
of the programmer. In fact, just the reverse is true (there are as many jobs
for COBOL programmers as there are for any other language). In the OO area
the vast majority of jobs are for C++ and/or Java, even though these
languages aren’t even real OO languages.
As far as the GUI functionality, that is really a property of the GUI library
and not the language. Java has blurred this distinction somewhat, but for
other languages there are multiple GUI libraries available which have
different characteristics.
Ruby will steer you towards better programming practice than many other
languages. Also, unless you learn Ruby or Smalltalk (of the widely
distributed languages) you won’t really know what OO is about.
In the long run you will be better served by broadening your knowledge and
understanding, and putting yourself in the best position to handle language
technology as it evolves.
···
On Sunday 09 March 2003 05:22 pm, anonimous wrote:
I have abour 3 or 4 years experience with Linux, and about 2 years
experience with Java, recently though I decided to quit learning Java
because I found it rather slow and lacking, the biggest problem is that Sun
Microsystems made to many libraries for some functions and not enough for
other functions, they also have quite a few bugs that are noticable when
one tries to apply custom effects to GUI’s such as setting colours with
…setBackground() and .setForeground() forsetting the colours. I am now
looking for one or two alternative programming languages to replace Java, I
am mostly interested in C, C++, Ruby, Python and Perl. What I would like to
know is which one would be better off in your opinion(s), one of the things
I concider important in a programming language is weather or not its good
enough to get me a job in programming. I look forward to your reply(s)
–
Seth Kurtzberg
M. I. S. Corp.
480-661-1849
seth@cql.com
Nobody mentioned Smalltalk, yet, so I’ll do it. Smalltalk and Ruby are
programming languages that make programmers happy. Smalltalk has the
best debugging environment I’ve ever seen. If you want to write big
applications, Smalltalk should be in the list of languages to
consider.
But to be honest: Ruby might have a better future than Smalltalk.
Smalltalk had some image problems and might never recover. Ruby is
still gaining attraction and will hopefully outrun Perl in about 3-5
years.
There are still some Smalltalk applications to maintain but I’m not so
sure about Smalltalk or Ruby getting you a job now. From that point of
view I would encourage you to stay with Java but become expert in one
of the fields
- component technologies
- persistence middleware
- GUI programming
- UML, object oriented design
Lerning a second language will add to that, too. Of course you could
learn SOAP or the FOX GUI toolkit with ruby. Smalltalk is the language
of choice to learn OOP and design patterns. (Java doesn’t teach you
OOP very well.)
Someone suggested C#; .NET isn’t only C# and VB. You could also try
out .NET with Smallscript (S#, Smalltalk for .NET).
Don’t try C++ or Perl if you are no masochist. I know what I’m talking
about, I use them both. (I have to admit that there are some
interesting ideas behind generic programming in C++ but I hate the
loss in productivity I notice with static typed languages.)
Have fun with ruby and have a look at http://www.whysmalltalk.com.
Cheers
Sascha
···
“anonimous” n.thomp@roadrunner.nf.net wrote:
I am now
looking for one or two alternative programming languages to replace Java, I
am mostly interested in C, C++, Ruby, Python and Perl. What I would like to
know is which one would be better off in your opinion(s), one of the things
I concider important in a programming language is weather or not its good
enough to get me a job in programming.
I have decided to go with Ruby, I’m still deciding on c/C++ and if all goes
well I might even try a third Programming language, but I probably
shouldn’t take on to much at one time. I’ve finished reading the
recommended tutorial and I think I know enough to start looking through the
Ruby api before I start trying to write programs as part of the learning
experience. I would like to say thanks to all who replied, you were a very
friendly group of people and you were very helpful, Thanks
I currently found some time to “catch up” the NG and read this thread
carefully.
Now I too have to put my mustard on it.
In article b4gklc$o21$1@nntp-stjh-01-01.rogers.nf.net,
n.thomp@roadrunner.nf.net says…
I have abour 3 or 4 years experience with Linux, and about 2 years
experience with Java, recently though I decided to quit learning Java
… Ups. After 2 years experience you’re still learning Java? I’ll drop
any ideas to learn Java some day immediately.
Seriously. I don’t think the number of languages you know is really
important. If I would be in need to hire some staff the languages would
be one of the last issues in my check list. Much more important would be
the list of reference projects, and the diversity of problems you’ve
solved. Of course, somebody has said one should learn at least one new
language per year. This is a good hint if you find enough time to do
that. So, Ruby is really not the worst suggestion for this year.
But, if you have to decide to learn Ruby or C++, C++ will have much
more impact on your skill-sheet because you will find much more projects
offered for C++ then for Ruby. Unfortunately, C++ will also need much
more time until you really know it, so, for an experienced project
manager 1 year experience in C++ will be nothing, whilst 1 year
experience in Ruby backed by other experiences will be much more.
(Because everybody who once started Visual-C++ adds C++ to its skills.)
Additionally, Ruby gives the possibility to learn something about Tk,
which is probably more known to project managers (or hiring stuff),
also, it has modules for database-access, which helps to extend your
knowledge of SQL, and so on.
Also, Ruby is available on many OS’s, so you’ll have a powerful
scripting language in your portfolio, which is important for
administrative tasks.
This is my hint: Learn Ruby, use it to learn more - API’s, OS’s, do not
bother too much for the details. It will be the details you don’t need
in your next project.
Regards,
Michael B.
“Daniel Carrera” dcarrera@math.umd.edu wrote in message
news:20030310002956.GB1225@math.umd.edu…
IMHO, the best language is Ruby. I like C a lot too, but I use it
mostly as a complement to Ruby.The langauges that are most likely to give you a job are C++, Java and
Perl.
I agree with the above, except C# is also becoming very important. It would
probably deal with some of the library issues. In the scripting section PHP
might also be relevant, depending on web focus.
I would also like to add Ocaml as a language to consider.
The two best languages are IMHO Ruby, OCaml. Apart from the language
qualities, both these languages have easy interfacing with C which is
important for real software solutions.
If focus is on serious GUI development I think ADA and Eiffel might be
interesting.
Why learn Ruby?
It’s so easy to getting started that it will be worth your while even if you
choose not to use it. Ruby will grow on you - it is a very powerful
language.
Mikkel
“Daniel Carrera” dcarrera@math.umd.edu wrote in message
news:20030310002956.GB1225@math.umd.edu…
[snip]
I am mostly interested in C, C++, Ruby, Python and Perl. What I would
like to know is which one would be better off in your opinion(s),
one of the things I concider important in a programming language is
weather or not its good enough to get me a job in programming. I
look forward to your reply(s)Well, in its strictest form your question is impossible to answer.
Some of the best languages are the ones least likely to get you a job
in programming.IMHO, the best language is Ruby. I like C a lot too, but I use it
mostly as a complement to Ruby.The langauges that are most likely to give you a job are C++, Java and
Perl.Web programming is usually done in Java or Perl (depending on whether
it’s client side or server side respectively). Application programming
is done in C++.Perhaps you should explain more clearly what you have in mind.
I’m interested in a programming language that can be used for anything in
general, web programming is not to important but I would like to be able
to create graphical user interfaces with Qt or GTK and do just about
anything without having to write to much code. Another thing that I think
might be important is how good ruby would work as a prototyping
language, because I also plan on learning C++, and prototyping can be
a good time saver when working with a larger programming language.
···
On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 09:22:02AM +0900, anonimous wrote:
–
Daniel Carrera
Graduate Teaching Assistant. Math Dept.
University of Maryland. (301) 405-5137
“Phil Tomson” ptkwt@shell1.aracnet.com wrote in message
news:b4gn830226o@enews1.newsguy.com…
In article b4gklc$o21$1@nntp-stjh-01-01.rogers.nf.net,
I have abour 3 or 4 years experience with Linux, and about 2 years
experience with Java, recently though I decided to quit learning Java
because I found it rather slow and lacking, the biggest problem is that
Sun
Microsystems made to many libraries for some functions and not enough for
other functions, they also have quite a few bugs that are noticable when
one
tries to apply custom effects to GUI’s such as setting colours with
.setBackground() and .setForeground() forsetting the colours. I am now
looking for one or two alternative programming languages to replace Java,
I
am mostly interested in C, C++, Ruby, Python and Perl. What I would like
to
know is which one would be better off in your opinion(s), one of the
things
I concider important in a programming language is weather or not its good
enough to get me a job in programming. I look forward to your reply(s)
Welcome,
Of course we’re pretty biased toward Ruby being your next programming
languageI think you’ll find Ruby’s libraries a lot more compact than Java’s.
Also, you’ll generally find that you can do the same program in Ruby with
about 1/2 to 1/3 of the lines as the equivlient Java program (with no hit
to readability as you would have in Perl).
Sounds good
Now as to your point about which language to learn in order to find a job
in programming:
- Right now there aren’t many jobs in programming and there are lots of
very experienced folks out there who know several of the languages you
list (quite well) and are not finding work… so in the short term, don’t
expect to find a job in programming unless you’ve got several years of
experience - you’re competing against folks who have lots of experience.- After reading and considering #1, learn C++ - when the job market does
eventually return (someyear - a year ago I said “In a year”, now I make no
predictions other than it definately won’t be anytime this year.) Knowing
C++ still gets you into the most number of places.
Althoug getting a job in programming is a concern of mine, I think I’d still
be
able to find another line of work. I am however very interested in being a
volunteer developer for a Linux distribution, it would certainly help me
learn
the programming language.
- Now, after considering #2, forget about which programming language will
get you a job and think about which programming language will cause you to
learn something about the practice of programming. I would suggest that
Ruby is an excellent choice for this. (and one can argue that you’ve got
plenty of time to do this) You’ll definately learn object oriented
programming with Ruby and it will definately have a different flavor than
OO programming you’ve dont in Java because Ruby isn’t statically typed.
OO programming in Ruby ‘feels’ much different than it does in C++ or Java
and it’s a very positive feeling, IMHO. [That’s not to say that there are
no Ruby jobs out there, but the number of jobs that list Ruby as a
requirement is still very small. However, I’ve found Ruby in lots of
places where I didn’t expect to find it - Ruby is being snuk in the
backdoor at lots of places kind of like Perl was 8-10 years ago.]You mention that Java is slow. I’m assuming you mean that programs
written in Java are slow to execute. You definately won’t find Ruby
faster than Java for most things. However, it’s quite easy to write
extentions for Ruby in C/C++ (another reason to learn C/C++) such that you
use C/C++ for speed critical parts of your code and Ruby for the parts you
want ot develop quickly.
The problem with java is that their programs are slow to execute, while it
is
running, speed isn’t of to much importance as long as it doesn’t consume to
much
ram, I’d like my programs to be run on slower computers as well as faster
ones
and Java programs are really bad for that kind of stuff.
In article b4gklc$o21$1@nntp-stjh-01-01.rogers.nf.net,
I have abour 3 or 4 years experience with Linux, and about 2 years
experience with Java, recently though I decided to quit learning Java
because I found it rather slow and lacking, the biggest problem is that
Sun Microsystems made to many libraries for some functions and not enough
for other functions, they also have quite a few bugs that are noticable
when one tries to apply custom effects to GUI’s such as setting colours
with .setBackground() and .setForeground() forsetting the colours. I am
now looking for one or two alternative programming languages to replace
Java, I am mostly interested in C, C++, Ruby, Python and Perl. What I
would like to know is which one would be better off in your opinion(s),
one of the things I concider important in a programming language is
weather or not its good enough to get me a job in programming. I look
forward to your reply(s)Welcome,
Of course we’re pretty biased toward Ruby being your next programming
languageI think you’ll find Ruby’s libraries a lot more compact than Java’s.
Also, you’ll generally find that you can do the same program in Ruby with
about 1/2 to 1/3 of the lines as the equivlient Java program (with no hit
to readability as you would have in Perl).Now as to your point about which language to learn in order to find a job
in programming:
- Right now there aren’t many jobs in programming and there are lots of
very experienced folks out there who know several of the languages you
list (quite well) and are not finding work… so in the short term, don’t
expect to find a job in programming unless you’ve got several years of
experience - you’re competing against folks who have lots of experience.- After reading and considering #1, learn C++ - when the job market does
eventually return (someyear - a year ago I said “In a year”, now I make no
predictions other than it definately won’t be anytime this year.)
I’ve most definitely seen an uptick in programming jobs in the last month or
so. After seeing basically nothing for quite a while, I’ve had two
conversations with potential employers. Of course, that is hardly
earthshaking, but it is an improvement.
Knowing
···
On Sunday 09 March 2003 06:22 pm, Phil Tomson wrote:
anonimous n.thomp@roadrunner.nf.net wrote:
C++ still gets you into the most number of places.
3) Now, after considering #2, forget about which programming language will
get you a job and think about which programming language will cause you to
learn something about the practice of programming. I would suggest that
Ruby is an excellent choice for this. (and one can argue that you’ve got
plenty of time to do this) You’ll definately learn object oriented
programming with Ruby and it will definately have a different flavor than
OO programming you’ve dont in Java because Ruby isn’t statically typed.
OO programming in Ruby ‘feels’ much different than it does in C++ or Java
and it’s a very positive feeling, IMHO. [That’s not to say that there are
no Ruby jobs out there, but the number of jobs that list Ruby as a
requirement is still very small. However, I’ve found Ruby in lots of
places where I didn’t expect to find it - Ruby is being snuk in the
backdoor at lots of places kind of like Perl was 8-10 years ago.]You mention that Java is slow. I’m assuming you mean that programs
written in Java are slow to execute. You definately won’t find Ruby
faster than Java for most things. However, it’s quite easy to write
extentions for Ruby in C/C++ (another reason to learn C/C++) such that you
use C/C++ for speed critical parts of your code and Ruby for the parts you
want ot develop quickly.Phil
–
Seth Kurtzberg
M. I. S. Corp.
480-661-1849
seth@cql.com
As far as the GUI functionality, that is really a property of the GUI library
and not the language. Java has blurred this distinction somewhat, but for
other languages there are multiple GUI libraries available which have
different characteristics.Ruby will steer you towards better programming practice than many other
languages. Also, unless you learn Ruby or Smalltalk (of the widely
distributed languages) you won’t really know what OO is about.
[AIW] If you don’t study under experienced OO developers, you will be less
likely to know good OOP. Also, Java now has an excellent GUI toolkit. Check out
www.eclipse.org. Make sure you search for SWT and JFace.
“Daniel Carrera” dcarrera@math.umd.edu schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:20030310002956.GB1225@math.umd.edu…
Web programming is usually done in Java or Perl (depending on whether
it’s client side or server side respectively). Application programming
is done in C++.
Although this might not be the right place, I would like to make clear that
Java is quite a good choice for the server side of web applications. The
servlet / JSP / taglib approach together with Java’s built in support for
multithreading is quite cabable of delivering fast and complex web
applications. (Note: I did not say J2EE - that’s another story.)
Regards
robert
Someone suggested C#; .NET isn’t only C# and VB. You could also try
out .NET with Smallscript (S#, Smalltalk for .NET).
This intrigued me, and I went to
http://www.smallscript.net
but it is quite difficult to make out what is what.
Yet, I think you have to agree to a 100k pdf license
for anything from that site, and it appears to me
to say you promise to keep everything about the
language and so forth confidential. This puzzles me
a bit; what good is a language that you can’t talk
about ? But I am not a lawyer, and I might be
completely misunderstanding it:
http://www.smallscript.net/Downloads/SmallScript-TP-LicenseAgreement.pdf
anonimous wrote:
I’ve finished reading the recommended tutorial and I think I know enough
to start looking through the Ruby api before I start trying to write
programs as part of the learning experience.
Don’t wait until AFTER you’ve read the api to “start trying to write
programs.”
Go ahead and start writing Ruby programs now; they’re fun and easy.
-Kent
···
–
Kent R. Spillner
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
- Benjamin Franklin
It’s just kind of “the number of languages you program, the times
you are the programmer”?
(resistance on r-t seems to go zero even though temperature raises
···
On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 09:37:49PM +0900, Michael Bruschkewitz wrote:
Seriously. I don’t think the number of languages you know is
really important.
–
---- WBR, Michael Shigorin mike@altlinux.ru
------ Linux.Kiev http://www.linux.kiev.ua/
“MikkelFJ” mikkelfj-anti-spam@bigfoot.com wrote in message
news:3e6be1af$0$136$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk…
“Daniel Carrera” dcarrera@math.umd.edu wrote in message
news:20030310002956.GB1225@math.umd.edu…IMHO, the best language is Ruby. I like C a lot too, but I use it
mostly as a complement to Ruby.The langauges that are most likely to give you a job are C++, Java and
Perl.I agree with the above, except C# is also becoming very important. It
would
probably deal with some of the library issues. In the scripting section
PHP
might also be relevant, depending on web focus.
I’m not very fond of Microsoft though, I think I’d stay away from any of
their
programming languages, after all, lots of people put their faith in Visual
Basic
and now Microsoft isn’t maintaining it any more that I know of.
I would also like to add Ocaml as a language to consider.
I’ve never heard of Ocaml before, is there a website with information on it?
The two best languages are IMHO Ruby, OCaml. Apart from the language
qualities, both these languages have easy interfacing with C which is
important for real software solutions.If focus is on serious GUI development I think ADA and Eiffel might be
interesting.
I’ve taken a quick look at Ada before, but I have never heard of Eiffel.
Why learn Ruby?
It’s so easy to getting started that it will be worth your while even if
you
choose not to use it. Ruby will grow on you - it is a very powerful
language.
How long does it take to get a good enough understanding of Ruby to
start writing programs?
What books would you recommend for learning Ruby?
···
Mikkel
I’m interested in a programming language that can be used for anything in
general, web programming is not to important but I would like to be able
to create graphical user interfaces with Qt or GTK and do just about
anything without having to write to much code.
Then Ruby is an excellent choice. Ruby is inteded as a general purpose
language. There are Ruby bindings for Gtk1 and Gtk2. I don’t think
that there are bindings for Qt though. Ruby makes a great
web-programming language, and an excellent general-purpose language.
Another thing that I think might be important is how good ruby would
work as a prototyping language, because I also plan on learning C++,
and prototyping can be a good time saver when working with a larger
programming language.
Ruby and Python are probably the best languages for prototyping.
Warning though, after you write your prototype in Ruby you might find
that it works so well that you won’t want to do it in C++
···
On Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 10:42:50AM +0900, anonimous wrote:
–
Daniel Carrera
Graduate Teaching Assistant. Math Dept.
University of Maryland. (301) 405-5137
“Daniel Carrera” dcarrera@math.umd.edu wrote in message
news:20030310002956.GB1225@math.umd.edu…IMHO, the best language is Ruby. I like C a lot too, but I use it
mostly as a complement to Ruby.The langauges that are most likely to give you a job are C++, Java and
Perl.I agree with the above, except C# is also becoming very important. It would
probably deal with some of the library issues. In the scripting section PHP
might also be relevant, depending on web focus.I would also like to add Ocaml as a language to consider.
The two best languages are IMHO Ruby, OCaml. Apart from the language
qualities, both these languages have easy interfacing with C which is
important for real software solutions.
If you are of a language theoretical bent, throw Haskell into the mix as well.
···
On Sunday 09 March 2003 06:02 pm, MikkelFJ wrote:
If focus is on serious GUI development I think ADA and Eiffel might be
interesting.Why learn Ruby?
It’s so easy to getting started that it will be worth your while even if
you choose not to use it. Ruby will grow on you - it is a very powerful
language.Mikkel
–
Seth Kurtzberg
M. I. S. Corp.
480-661-1849
seth@cql.com
Althoug getting a job in programming is a concern of mine, I think
I’d still be able to find another line of work. I am however very
interested in being a volunteer developer for a Linux distribution,
it would certainly help me learn the programming language.
Most of Linux/OSS is written in C, in the Unix tradition. KDE is an
exception, it is mostly C++.
C is easier to learn than C++, and to some degree it is a subset of
C++.
I would suggest you learn Ruby first, then C then (possibly) C++. In
my case I’ve never had a compelling reason to learn C++. I only know
C.
···
–
Daniel Carrera
Graduate Teaching Assistant. Math Dept.
University of Maryland. (301) 405-5137