Ruby and Gender (Was: A Mascot...)

ruby-talk
1

If the answer to this question is No, you're implying that Ruby is no
worse than the overarching 'male-dominated field', and therefore this
issue is irrelevant. In this case, you're basically saying that we
can get away with ignorant behaviour because it is the norm. I
believe we can do better than that.

If the answer to this question is Yes, you're implying that Ruby is
especially bad in an already miserably unbalanced field. In that
case, are you prepared to be part of the solution to that problem? I
hope so.

But seriously, in a male-dominated field, waiting for females to speak
up is about the same as claiming that if your grandma boycotts
Walmart, they'll eventually shut down. It is absolutely correct that
we are not qualified to know what is the best way to solve this
problem -- women with an interest and a passion for solving this
problem will need to lead the way, if it is ever to work. However, it
is absolutely wrong to assume that we are absolved from recognizing
that the problem exists, simply because we can't solve it on our own.

There is no requirement for all Ruby programmers to be feminists.
Simply remembering that we're not hanging out in a men's locker room
will put us farther along than some other communities, and will be a
big step in the right direction.

-greg

···

On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 12:28 AM, David Masover <ninja@slaphack.com> wrote:

On Saturday 23 August 2008 21:23:13 David A. Black wrote:

OK, I'll make it easier for you. I, personally, am offended by the
suggestion that a cute little (naked or otherwise) girl named Ruby be
the Ruby "mascot."

You're one person... but I was generalizing.

However...

Meanwhile please channel some of
this energy into real issues, like why we as a community have not
blazed the new trail of inclusiveness across sexual boundaries that it
once seemed we might.

Ok, I'm curious -- how many females have seen this image? How many have
actually been offended by it? (I'm assuming "David" is male.)

I think we do more harm to that "inclusiveness" by focusing on this issue at
all. But I'm not really qualified to debate that. (Are you?)

But if you'd rather talk about inclusiveness... Is Ruby particularly
under-represented, among programming languages? We're talking about a very
small niche of an already male-dominated field.

--
Technical Blaag at: http://blog.majesticseacreature.com | Non-tech
stuff at: http://metametta.blogspot.com

2

It comes to a surprise for me, but I could not have said this better myself.
Well spoken chief Gregory.

Robert

···

--
http://ruby-smalltalk.blogspot.com/

There's no one thing that's true. It's all true.
--
Ernest Hemingway

3

If the answer to this question is No, you're implying that Ruby is no
worse than the overarching 'male-dominated field', and therefore this
issue is irrelevant.

Actually, no, I'm arguing that it seems silly to attack this issue in Ruby
specifically, if it's an issue with the larger field.

Unless you're implying that some community (as a community) needs to step up
and get it right, as an example to everyone else?

If the answer to this question is Yes, you're implying that Ruby is
especially bad in an already miserably unbalanced field. In that
case, are you prepared to be part of the solution to that problem?

Depends what that entails. I'm not about to go door to door or anything, but
if I'm doing anything offensive, let me know.

If I'm not part of the solution, I want to at least make sure I'm not part of
the problem.

But seriously, in a male-dominated field, waiting for females to speak
up is about the same as claiming that if your grandma boycotts
Walmart, they'll eventually shut down.

Given that there are females on this list, I'd think the probability is a bit
higher, especially given such an open invitation to discuss the matter.

If it wasn't clear already, that is an invitation.
I want to know what you think.

···

On Sunday 24 August 2008 00:07:41 Gregory Brown wrote:

4

I'm suggesting as individuals, we should try to do better. But if you
require a major shift in the science and technology field to start
doing your part, so be it.

-greg

···

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 12:40 AM, David Masover <ninja@slaphack.com> wrote:

On Sunday 24 August 2008 00:07:41 Gregory Brown wrote:

If the answer to this question is No, you're implying that Ruby is no
worse than the overarching 'male-dominated field', and therefore this
issue is irrelevant.

Actually, no, I'm arguing that it seems silly to attack this issue in Ruby
specifically, if it's an issue with the larger field.

Unless you're implying that some community (as a community) needs to step up
and get it right, as an example to everyone else?

--
Technical Blaag at: http://blog.majesticseacreature.com | Non-tech
stuff at: http://metametta.blogspot.com

5

Off-list, as this is getting a bit offtopic...

I'm suggesting as individuals, we should try to do better. But if you
require a major shift in the science and technology field to start
doing your part, so be it.

I never said that. I think I'm doing alright.

Again, if there's something specific I should be doing differently, let me
know.

If it's about ruby-chan, you'll note I was equal opportunity about it -- I
didn't protest the "naked man" idea, either. Is the concept of sex (or merely
nudity) that much of a barrier? (And is that implying anything about a female
attitude towards sex?)

···

On Monday 25 August 2008 00:10:20 Gregory Brown wrote:

6

...whoops. My mail client is not doing well with the concept of "reply-to-one"
vs "reply-to-all".

···

On Monday 25 August 2008 00:22:09 David Masover wrote:

Off-list, as this is getting a bit offtopic...