I’ve finally started a blog. I really didn’t want to go public with it
until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that I
feel compelled to comment on.
You can read about it on my blog:
http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs
Curt
Even back when I programmed Linux systems, I used Windows at home
because I play games on it.
I also thought David’s posting was lame and ignorant. It didn’t have
his usual thoughtfulness.
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:20:07 -0600, Curt Hibbs curt-fk6st7iWb8MAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org wrote:
I’ve finally started a blog. I really didn’t want to go public with it
until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that I
feel compelled to comment on.You can read about it on my blog:
http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs
Curt
Rails mailing list
Rails-1W37MKcQCpIf0INCOvqR/iCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org
http://lists.rubyonrails.org/mailman/listinfo/rails
Curt Hibbs wrote:
You can read about it on my blog:
Please post Ruby stuff to Artima Forums - Ruby Buzz Forum as well -- it aggregates most Ruby weblogs out there which is quite nice.
Thank you!
Eric Hodel wrote:
I've finally started a blog. I really didn't want to go public with it until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that I feel compelled to comment on.
You can read about it on my blog:
I'd like to subscribe to your blog, but it seems that the RSS feeds are all bloglines RSS feeds...
Yeah, they don't make it easy to find the RSS URL. It is:
http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs/rss
I'm going to cc this to ruby-talk in case other's are having the same problem.
I really think I'm going to switch to another provider, because I want people to be able to leave comments. I'm thinking about trying Google's blogger.
Does anyone have any suggestions for a *free* weblog provider. I've also thought about setting up Typo on my server, but I have a fairly slow uplink bandwidth and I don't really want to clog that up.
Thanks,
Curt
On 30 Mar 2005, at 07:21, Curt Hibbs wrote:
Hello Curt,
cause you don't have comments and David stop comments of this story, I'll put my opinion here, even if everybody has this thread in ignored.
I fully agree with David and reaction like he is lame, unprofesional and so are blind in my eyes. It was just his personal view (as I feel it, but I'm not native speaker as you can see around, so maybe I've missed something), and maybe reaction like this speaks more about people writting it (and many of them are authorities for me). I think that not so many people in our little software world are bigger proffesinals and totaly seeing forward people like David is. We now have (as I can see it) one of the best domain specific language for free, do you think it should happen if David was using wintel? I'dont.
And for funding. I'm living in Czech Republic, and macs are sooo expensive here (30pc more than in states) and wages are.... guess, but year ago I've managed to get 12" PB from USA through one friend (funny she was in Vegas on IBM yearly conference). It costs me half year work in my university job, but I'm still feeling that it worth every penny and I get my money back, from work I've done on it. Surely I could do it on my freebsd machine too, but ... not with such leisure and happiness. And with no flame, it's just like changing the way you work on computer (butler, witch, growl ..), I feel like my computer is working for me (same with ruby and rails), not that I'm working for him. I think, that if I didn't buy one I never know about Rails, cause I didn't have time to explore it.
So it's my really long, bad written, late.... and so comment. Sorry for disturbing, it was just on my mind and I had to say. Even if I'm wrong.
See ya in Prague one day :-). Do you know that czech republic has the most advanced net (km/person) of railroads in the world?
--
Ing. Josef Pospisil
On 30.3.2005, at 17:21, Curt Hibbs wrote:
I've finally started a blog. I really didn't want to go public with it until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that I feel compelled to comment on.
You can read about it on my blog:
http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs
Curt
Curt Hibbs wrote:
I've finally started a blog. I really didn't want to go public with it
until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that I
feel compelled to comment on.You can read about it on my blog:
I mainly use LinuxPPC on Macs. How many DHH brownie points do I score for
that?
I prefer using KDE 3.4 over Mac OS X for program development, and think the
Qt/KDE application framework is as good as Cocoa, even though I've spent 10
years as a professional NeXT/Objective-C programmer.
-- Richard
Curt Hibbs wrote:
I've finally started a blog. I really didn't want to go public with it until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that I feel compelled to comment on.
You can read about it on my blog:
http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs
Curt
Well, I hate *nix. *nix is a virus that unfortunately will be here for years to come. What's worse, the so called "hackers" really like that "everything is a file" mantra. Eh... Unfortunately there isn't really any good alternative since NT is based on very similar principals - very little changes. We need a good alternative to this obsolete garbage. Genera was(is) cool but it's almost dead.
Having to use Ruby/Lisp/Smalltalk on *nix makes me sick :S Oh well, back to work(*nix!).
I shouldn't worry about it. Having gone out of my way to read his blog entry I can only assume that if this is the current state of "Loud Thinking" I now know why I don't bother reading it. What utter drivel.
It could just be possible, couldn't it that some people have a different perspective on things than DHH, and actually, shock, like Windows? Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still only have one mouse button, etc...
Stephen
In message <424AC3A7.3050008@hibbs.com>, Curt Hibbs <curt@hibbs.com> writes
I've finally started a blog. I really didn't want to go public with it until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that I feel compelled to comment on.
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information: http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html
I've finally started a blog. I really didn't want to go public with it until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that I feel compelled to comment on.
(I hadn't spotted the cross-posting at first, so here's a reprint for those not on that list)
There's no mistake. Hiring a programmer is a composite image of many things good and bad. For 37signals, it's definitely a disadvantage to still be a Windows user. I wouldn't say that it's impossible, just considerably harder, to convince us that it didn't matter too much.
The choices you make as a programmer serves as indicators for your cultural standing and performance. The kind of books you read, the methodologies that you favor, the pastime projects you're involved with, and yes, your choice of programming language and computing environment.
Just like hiring someone with a declared love for Java wouldn't make sense for 37signals, hiring someone who thinks that Windows is the best platform for open source use and development doesn't make that much sense either.
If your funds are tight, I'd see it natural that you picked a free alternative, like Linux.
Naturally, this is a fairly context-dependent recommendation. If your dream job is working on C# using Visual Studio for some Microsoft shop, then of course a Windows setup is a good pick. I'm going to be a bit baffled as to why that is, but I won't berate your choice of environment to pursue that dream.
On the other hand, if you want to work with open source technologies like the Rails stack of Apache/lighttpd, MySQL/PostgreSQL, Ruby/Rails, etc, I find a strong disconnect with doing so from Windows. It's just not a natural fit neither from a technological, cultural, or political perspective. Actively pursuing or celebrating this unnatural fit raises a red flag for me.
Additionally, I don't buy into the notion that discussion choice of computing platform is similar to discussing what color you like better or other instinctive matters. The choice is a conscious one and open for debate.
--
David Heinemeier Hansson,
http://www.basecamphq.com/ -- Web-based Project Management
http://www.rubyonrails.org/ -- Web-application framework for Ruby
http://www.loudthinking.com/ -- Broadcasting Brain
Florian Gross wrote:
Curt Hibbs wrote:
You can read about it on my blog:
Please post Ruby stuff to Artima Forums - Ruby Buzz Forum as well -- it aggregates most Ruby weblogs out there which is quite nice.
Thanks... its done! I just added my blog to the Ruby Buzz aggregation (I already subscribe to this, myself... just forgot about adding myself to it).
Does anyone have any suggestions for a *free* weblog provider. I've also
thought about setting up Typo on my server, but I have a fairly slow
uplink bandwidth and I don't really want to clog that up.
Typo is more like a full-blown (and complex) content management system
more appropriate for maybe an online publication, which seems to be a
different business than a blog.
On the other hand, the other option you suggest about using Blogger
(that's the name of the original 'blog' which then Google acquired)
may be too simple if you plan going beyond the traditional personal
blog. Blogger is probably best suited for personal blogs of an
individual or small group of friends.
If it's a ruby-related blog (as I assume it must probably be) and
given the number of fans of your work existing in the rubysphere I
feel confident you will probably be offered plenty of bandwidth and
disk space to run a blog written in Ruby.
(which is good for extensibility and scalability, I've heard 
Keep up with the good work !
cheers,
vruz
Ridiculous. You're saying Rails (I'm assuming that's what you mean by
'best domain specific language for free') wouldn't exist if David used
Wintel? Please describe how these two concepts are related.
Curt Hibbs has a good point, and I think he was completely
professional about it. David's post _was_ pretty arrogant. I
personally don't like OS X. I don't like the idea of having to run my
OS only on proprietary hardware. Nor do I like the Apple (and Gems)
method of giving applications separate directories. And to be honest,
I'm not all that impressed with OS X's interface, as crazy as that
might sound. I'm not going to "get over it" and switch. I've used OS
X computers and they're not for me. I'm sure others have had similar
experiences. And I'm sure others have used OS X and loved it. Good
for them.
The fact is, you pick the environment you're most productive in and
you leave it at that. Curt Hibbs and I (and whoever else) have a
right to be bothered by the article. Paul Graham says a lot of
things; his opinion about what "the best hackers" use isn't really a
solid reason for me to consider shelling out a few thousand dollars
for what, to me, is not an ideal system. David's post suggested that
everyone not using a Mac is being intentionally stubborn or stupid -
that they were too dumb to see that they should be moving to the Mac.
Curt Hibbs had a right to be frustrated, and I'm glad he brought it
up.
Bill Atkins
P.S. I would have posted this comment on LoudThinking, but the
comments have been closed there.
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:39:42 +0900, Josef Pospisil <perails@seznam.cz> wrote:
Hello Curt,
cause you don't have comments and David stop comments of this story,
I'll put my opinion here, even if everybody has this thread in ignored.I fully agree with David and reaction like he is lame, unprofesional
and so are blind in my eyes. It was just his personal view (as I feel
it, but I'm not native speaker as you can see around, so maybe I've
missed something), and maybe reaction like this speaks more about
people writting it (and many of them are authorities for me). I think
that not so many people in our little software world are bigger
proffesinals and totaly seeing forward people like David is. We now
have (as I can see it) one of the best domain specific language for
free, do you think it should happen if David was using wintel? I'dont.And for funding. I'm living in Czech Republic, and macs are sooo
expensive here (30pc more than in states) and wages are.... guess, but
year ago I've managed to get 12" PB from USA through one friend (funny
she was in Vegas on IBM yearly conference). It costs me half year work
in my university job, but I'm still feeling that it worth every penny
and I get my money back, from work I've done on it. Surely I could do
it on my freebsd machine too, but ... not with such leisure and
happiness. And with no flame, it's just like changing the way you work
on computer (butler, witch, growl ..), I feel like my computer is
working for me (same with ruby and rails), not that I'm working for
him. I think, that if I didn't buy one I never know about Rails, cause
I didn't have time to explore it.So it's my really long, bad written, late.... and so comment. Sorry for
disturbing, it was just on my mind and I had to say. Even if I'm wrong.See ya in Prague one day :-). Do you know that czech republic has the
most advanced net (km/person) of railroads in the world?--
Ing. Josef Pospisil
On 30.3.2005, at 17:21, Curt Hibbs wrote:> I've finally started a blog. I really didn't want to go public with it
> until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that
> I feel compelled to comment on.
>
> You can read about it on my blog:
>
> http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs
>
> Curt
>
--
$stdout.sync = true
"Just another Ruby hacker.".each_byte do |b|
('a'..'z').step do|c|print c+"\b";sleep 0.007 end;print b.chr
end; print "\n"
My .02 cents:
I'm a self-professed Mac snob, myself: I'm typing this on a Powerbook 12", and a few weeks ago I posted a job description that included the phrase "Apple and Unix snobs highly encouraged to apply." I've never spent my own money on a computer that wasn't made by Apple, and I've got an iPod that follows me everywhere I go. Like Paul Graham, I have been pleased to note that many of the techie events I go to have a high Powerbook quotient. I find the Linux desktop interface sort of clunky, and the idea of wrestling with system config issues in Linux doesn't seem like it's worth the time. And personally, I find the whole design of the Wintel platform vaguely insulting.
But:
+ To say that you have "run all but dry of understanding for programmers that willfully pick Windows as their platform of choice" to me seems to imply a complete disinterest in understanding how other people make such decisions in the first place. For one thing, I know plenty of people who have never made the switch out of cost-consciousness, and I live in New York, not a very cost-conscious place to begin with.
+ Apple's legal moves, of late, have not been very accepting of open principles, and those moves should give its supporters pause. There have been lots of lawsuits and cease-and-desist orders regarding trade secrets, iTunes hacking, etc., and of course I take this all a bit personally, considering that Apple shut down my own iPod parody auction last December on eBay. (I was able to call their bluff and sell it on my own site; see http://fhwang.net/art/uiuvnse/ for the whole story.)
+ Not every super l33t h4x0r is giving Apple love these days anyway. In fact, Tim Bray just posted an interesting rant to his blog: ongoing by Tim Bray · Unswitch? . Now, DHH is a smart guy, but if we're going to start making techie appeals to authority, I think inventing XML trumps inventing Rails.
In a nutshell: There is no such thing as a self-evidently perfect platform. Until there is, I'm certainly not willing to judge a programmer by such a silly thing as what platform he uses. In fact, in my recent job interviews the question never comes up. There are lots of other, less ham-handed ways to find if a programmer is the match for your company ... For me, they're questions like: How familiar are they with the values of simplicity and power embodied in Ruby? How familiar are they with the principles and ideas that might be gleaned out of agile methodologies, design patterns, and refactoring? Do they have cool shoes?
( Just kidding about that last question. Sort of. )
Francis Hwang
On Mar 31, 2005, at 3:39 AM, Josef Pospisil wrote:
Hello Curt,
cause you don't have comments and David stop comments of this story, I'll put my opinion here, even if everybody has this thread in ignored.
I fully agree with David and reaction like he is lame, unprofesional and so are blind in my eyes. It was just his personal view (as I feel it, but I'm not native speaker as you can see around, so maybe I've missed something), and maybe reaction like this speaks more about people writting it (and many of them are authorities for me). I think that not so many people in our little software world are bigger proffesinals and totaly seeing forward people like David is. We now have (as I can see it) one of the best domain specific language for free, do you think it should happen if David was using wintel? I'dont.
And for funding. I'm living in Czech Republic, and macs are sooo expensive here (30pc more than in states) and wages are.... guess, but year ago I've managed to get 12" PB from USA through one friend (funny she was in Vegas on IBM yearly conference). It costs me half year work in my university job, but I'm still feeling that it worth every penny and I get my money back, from work I've done on it. Surely I could do it on my freebsd machine too, but ... not with such leisure and happiness. And with no flame, it's just like changing the way you work on computer (butler, witch, growl ..), I feel like my computer is working for me (same with ruby and rails), not that I'm working for him. I think, that if I didn't buy one I never know about Rails, cause I didn't have time to explore it.
So it's my really long, bad written, late.... and so comment. Sorry for disturbing, it was just on my mind and I had to say. Even if I'm wrong.
See ya in Prague one day :-). Do you know that czech republic has the most advanced net (km/person) of railroads in the world?
--
Ing. Josef Pospisil
On 30.3.2005, at 17:21, Curt Hibbs wrote:I've finally started a blog. I really didn't want to go public with it until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that I feel compelled to comment on.
You can read about it on my blog:
http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs
Curt
* Lopy (Mar 31, 2005 13:15):
Well, I hate *nix. *nix is a virus that unfortunately will be here for
years to come. What's worse, the so called "hackers" really like that
"everything is a file" mantra. Eh... Unfortunately there isn't really
any good alternative since NT is based on very similar principals -
very little changes. We need a good alternative to this obsolete
garbage. Genera was(is) cool but it's almost dead. Having to use
Ruby/Lisp/Smalltalk on *nix makes me sick :S Oh well, back to
work(*nix!).
Well put,
nikolai (the sarcastic bastard)
--
::: name: Nikolai Weibull :: aliases: pcp / lone-star / aka :::
::: born: Chicago, IL USA :: loc atm: Gothenburg, Sweden :::
::: page: minimalistic.org :: fun atm: gf,lps,ruby,lisp,war3 :::
main(){printf(&linux["\021%six\012\0"],(linux)["have"]+"fun"-97);}
What's worse, the so called "hackers" really like that
"everything is a file" mantra.
What is the alternative mantra / paradigm?
Randy Kramer
On Thursday 31 March 2005 06:04 am, Lopy wrote:
Eh... Unfortunately there isn't really
any good alternative since NT is based on very similar principals - very
little changes. We need a good alternative to this obsolete garbage.
Genera was(is) cool but it's almost dead.
Having to use Ruby/Lisp/Smalltalk on *nix makes me sick :S Oh well, back
to work(*nix!).
* Stephen Kellett <snail@objmedia.demon.co.uk> [0335 15:35]:
Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still
only have one mouse button, etc...
You have an opinion which differs from mine! I will fill up a mailing
list for two days arguing the toss about it!
Come on now, guys, if you want to have a 'my OS is leetier than thou'
argument, there are other places to do it.
--
'When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite.'
-- Winston Churchill, On formal declarations of war
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns
Utter bullshit. Please grow up.
Stephen Kellett <snail@objmedia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still
only have one mouse button, etc...
--
Luc Heinrich - lucsky@mac.com
David Heinemeier Hansson wrote:
The choices you make as a programmer serves as indicators for your cultural standing and performance. The kind of books you read, the methodologies that you favor, the pastime projects you're involved with, and yes, your choice of programming language and computing environment.
What does it mean if a programmer hang glides? Does it mean that their perspective is too lofty and airborne, hence out of touch?
If I was a programmer, I would steer clear of:
* Jetskis
* Adverbs
* Ankle bracelets
* Using curtsy as a greeting
* Kid gloves
* Mechanical pencils
* Body building magazines
* Charcoal briquets
* and, social death itself: ultrasounds of other people's children!!
I know FOR A FACT that people who use mechanical pencils cannot be trusted. They are liars. And often they will lie about not having an extra pack of lead in their breast pocket. I know FOR A FACT that they have lead -- right there -- in their breast coat pocket!
_why
Hi ..
The choices you make as a programmer serves as indicators for your
cultural standing and performance. The kind of books you read, the
methodologies that you favor, the pastime projects you're involved
with, and yes, your choice of programming language and computing
environment.
Poor you! Such sad psycho-babble .. If you are motorhead, it means? Or an
opera fan?
Do you ~really~ believe this?
Additionally, I don't buy into the notion that discussion choice of
computing platform is similar to discussing what color you like better
or other instinctive matters. The choice is a conscious one and open
for debate.
David,
Here is a quick challenge. Design for us a VoIP cellphone. Take me through
your choices of hardware platform and OS. Don't forget that time to market
and end-user cost are paramount.
Regards,
On Thursday 31 March 2005 12:06, David Heinemeier Hansson wrote:
--
-mark. (probertm at acm dot org)
There's no mistake. Hiring a programmer is a composite image of many things good and bad. For 37signals, it's definitely a disadvantage to still be a Windows user. I wouldn't say that it's impossible, just considerably harder, to convince us that it didn't matter too much.
You need to do some research on psychology. You really need to be looking at the person and their ability, not at the fact they strongly dislike Bovril and have a passion for Sushi.
On the other hand, if you want to work with open source technologies like the Rails stack of Apache/lighttpd, MySQL/PostgreSQL, Ruby/Rails, etc, I find a strong disconnect with doing so from Windows.
There may be many reasons a company is using Windows, reasons which are not made public. The Ruby/Rails/MySQL/otherOSS tools may be chosen because they are still perceived as the most suitable/best (delete as appropriate) whilst on windows (*). The fact that someone is using a Proprietary OS/hardware has no bearing on their tool choice (except if they are prevented from choosing the tool). They may also want to use other software that is not available on your free OS of choice. Thus they have to use Windows. Quite apart from they just like Windows. I've tried Macs loads of times. I really do not like how they work. Why? I don't know. Same with Bovril. Same with Independent skateboard trucks, but Trackers are great.
On my last consulting gig at a Windows software house there were plenty of tools you'd expect to find in Unixland in use - mainly Perl and Python. Why? Because some of the guys writing Windows code wanted some flexible tools for other jobs and chose those tools. Management didn't mind, so the OSS tools get in the software house. An active move against Windows would stop such a thing, as the OSS tools wouldn't be available at all. In 1990 a company I worked for choose gcc to use as the compiler for VMS and 6 different Unix OSes rather than use the native compiler for each. They chose gcc as it was seen as the best tool (**).
Rails will be bigger and better with a strong Windows community. As will any other OSS. Given you claim there is a political stance in your choice, your choice is actively working against the widest possible adoption of OSS.
other instinctive matters. The choice is a conscious one and open for debate.
The answer boils down to "because I couldn't afford a Mac", or "because its easier, I prefer this", or "I don't like that". For me, all 3 exclude Macs as a possible choice. I wouldn't choose my software platform out of OSS/freedom/political considerations. I choose it because I think it is the best/most appropriate for my needs (***). If that meant I had to save for a Mac I would. Luckily for me, it doesn't. Probably also explains why I don't have the lastest Warp-Factor 5, Hyper-This-That-TheOther-Intelium 2000 box.
Note (*) (**) (***) are the same thing. People choose what is for them, the best, most appropriate tool. For some, most appropriate may include a quasi-political stance, which seems to be your case. Don't make the mistake that everyone makes software decisions on those lines.
If you cannot get your head around the fact that other people do not think the same way as you, you are going to have a hard time getting people to adopt Rails when you actively antagonise them. People will choose the best unless the people providing the best antagonise them.
See http://www.insearchofstupidity.com/Book_Excerpts/Chapter_Five/chapter_fiv
e.html
I recommend reading the whole book. Its a hoot.
Final comment. Why didn't you write something intelligible like the posting you made here rather than the stuff on the blog that caused this bother?
Stephen
In message <6c87a002d5858216dd00a4abe83e032d@loudthinking.com>, David Heinemeier Hansson <david@loudthinking.com> writes
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information: http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html