I've looked a little at Hypergraph (http://hypergraph.sourceforge.net) and I
like it so far.
It's a Java thing.
How good are are our current Ruby-Java bridges in terms of being able to
manipulate something like this from within Ruby?
Hal
In article <41682BF5.1070805@hypermetrics.com>,
···
Hal Fulton <hal9000@hypermetrics.com> wrote:
I've looked a little at Hypergraph (http://hypergraph.sourceforge.net) and I
like it so far.It's a Java thing.
How good are are our current Ruby-Java bridges in terms of being able to
manipulate something like this from within Ruby?
Can't a lot of the same functionality be acheived with GraphViz?
Also, are there any C/C++ libraries for doing this? It would probably be
a lot easier to Swig a C/C++ library than to try to interact Java.
Phil
Hal Fulton wrote:
How good are are our current Ruby-Java bridges in terms of being able to
manipulate something like this from within Ruby?
Rjb (http://raa.ruby-lang.org/project/rjb/\) does a very good job of
bringing Java to Ruby and vice versa.
The only thing that you need to worry about is overloaded methods, where
you have to explicitly choose which one you want to call. Exception
handling seems to work ok.
Tell me if you are interested in a more useful syntax (=working syntax)
in connection with classpath loading.
You might want to wrap Hypergraph with a Ruby module that contains Java
bridge code.
happy hacking !
kaspar
semantics & semiotics
code manufacture
www.tua.ch/ruby
Phil Tomson wrote:
Can't a lot of the same functionality be acheived with GraphViz?
I wasn't aware GraphViz could do hyperbolic trees?? If it can, that's great.
Also, are there any C/C++ libraries for doing this? It would probably be a lot easier to Swig a C/C++ library than to try to interact Java.
There's a commercial one from inxight.com, license around $25,000 or so,
I think.
Hal
from the same organization who brought us CROWDS (perl based
anonymizing proxy, which has disappeared from their website) and
Natural Voice text-to-speech synthesis
[error] (plus, UNIX, C,
C++...)
peace,
-z
···
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 05:24:41 +0900, Phil Tomson <ptkwt@aracnet.com> wrote:
In article <41682BF5.1070805@hypermetrics.com>,
Hal Fulton <hal9000@hypermetrics.com> wrote:
>I've looked a little at Hypergraph (http://hypergraph.sourceforge.net) and I
>like it so far.
>
>It's a Java thing.
>
>How good are are our current Ruby-Java bridges in terms of being able to
>manipulate something like this from within Ruby?
>Can't a lot of the same functionality be acheived with GraphViz?
Also, are there any C/C++ libraries for doing this? It would probably be
a lot easier to Swig a C/C++ library than to try to interact Java.Phil
Kaspar Schiess wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1Hal Fulton wrote:
> How good are are our current Ruby-Java bridges in terms of being able to
> manipulate something like this from within Ruby?Rjb (http://raa.ruby-lang.org/project/rjb/\) does a very good job of
bringing Java to Ruby and vice versa.
I don't think I knew about that one... I will give it a try. (inserts in
to-do list about 10% of the way from top).
Thanks,
Hal
zuzu wrote:
···
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 05:24:41 +0900, Phil Tomson <ptkwt@aracnet.com> wrote:
In article <41682BF5.1070805@hypermetrics.com>,
Hal Fulton <hal9000@hypermetrics.com> wrote:
I've looked a little at Hypergraph (http://hypergraph.sourceforge.net) and I
like it so far.It's a Java thing.
How good are are our current Ruby-Java bridges in terms of being able to
manipulate something like this from within Ruby?Can't a lot of the same functionality be acheived with GraphViz?
Also, are there any C/C++ libraries for doing this? It would probably be
a lot easier to Swig a C/C++ library than to try to interact Java.Phil
from the same organization who brought us CROWDS (perl based
anonymizing proxy, which has disappeared from their website) and
Natural Voice text-to-speech synthesis
[error] (plus, UNIX, C,
C++...)
Well, again I have some familiarity with GraphViz, but I still don't see any
evidence it can handle hyperbolic display. I've just looked over the docs
again.
Is this a new feature that isn't in the docs yet?
Hal
In article <41684A67.5000306@hypermetrics.com>,
Phil Tomson wrote:
Can't a lot of the same functionality be acheived with GraphViz?
I wasn't aware GraphViz could do hyperbolic trees?? If it can, that's great.
No, not hyperbolic trees. However it can represent trees graphically. I
only glanced briefly at the page you referenced, but it seemed (from
looking at an example) that you could get some _similar_ functionality
from GraphViz. I'm not entirely sure I grok the difference with
hyperbolic trees; I was thinking that it was just another algorithm for
representing the tree graphially.
Also, are there any C/C++ libraries for doing this? It would probably be
a lot easier to Swig a C/C++ library than to try to interact Java.There's a commercial one from inxight.com, license around $25,000 or so,
I think.
Yow.
What exactly are you trying to do?
Phil
···
Hal Fulton <hal9000@hypermetrics.com> wrote:
I might be confusing sth, but I think there are patent issues
with elliptic trees.
-A, from Euruko 2004
Phil Tomson wrote:
In article <41684A67.5000306@hypermetrics.com>,
Phil Tomson wrote:
Can't a lot of the same functionality be acheived with GraphViz?
I wasn't aware GraphViz could do hyperbolic trees?? If it can, that's great.
No, not hyperbolic trees. However it can represent trees graphically. I only glanced briefly at the page you referenced, but it seemed (from looking at an example) that you could get some _similar_ functionality from GraphViz. I'm not entirely sure I grok the difference with hyperbolic trees; I was thinking that it was just another algorithm for representing the tree graphially.
I may be misusing the term a little. Not sure.
I'll explain as well as I can something that I think is Cool. 
Imagine you have a graph of infinite size in a plane. Those are tedious
to display, because they require monitors of infinite size, which can
get expensive. The nodes are all roughly equidistant from their neighbors
and roughly the same in size (not that it really matters).
Now imagine you have a fat convex lens that you can pass over this plane.
The node you hover over will be centered and will be the largest one. As
you look off in any direction, the nodes are smaller and closer together.
As you approach the boundary of the lens, you're approaching infinity.
Like that Escher print with the angels and the demons, or one of the
variants thereof.
As you move the lens, a different node comes into focus. It is now the
largest and most central, and it is still surrounded by a potentially
infinite number of nodes.
There have been applets and even browsers made which worked this way.
You could "drag" nodes offcenter into focus. To travel toward infinity,
just keep dragging. And so on.
The StarTree example at inxight.com is a fairly good one. I think they
have a demo or something.
As for what I want it for: Well, it's premature. But I'd like to have an
interface like that as an alternative interface for Tycho.
Hal
···
Hal Fulton <hal9000@hypermetrics.com> wrote:
patent monopolies on MATHEMATICS; what a fine time we live in.
peace,
-z
···
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:26:33 +0900, Armin Roehrl <armin@xss.de> wrote:
I might be confusing sth, but I think there are patent issues
with elliptic trees.-A, from Euruko 2004
Armin Roehrl wrote:
I might be confusing sth, but I think there are patent issues
with elliptic trees.-A, from Euruko 2004
<sigh> So far, I have stayed away from this issue and have not been
bitten by it.
I always have fond visions of patenting this molecule made of one
atom of oxygen and two of hydrogen. Anyone who drinks it, swims
in it, cooks with it, or has it in their bodies would have to pay
me royalties.
How is Euruko?? Is anyone blogging about it??
Hal
In article <416873A3.2060308@hypermetrics.com>,
Phil Tomson wrote:
In article <41684A67.5000306@hypermetrics.com>,
Phil Tomson wrote:
Can't a lot of the same functionality be acheived with GraphViz?
I wasn't aware GraphViz could do hyperbolic trees?? If it can, that's great.
No, not hyperbolic trees. However it can represent trees graphically. I
only glanced briefly at the page you referenced, but it seemed (from
looking at an example) that you could get some _similar_ functionality
from GraphViz. I'm not entirely sure I grok the difference with
hyperbolic trees; I was thinking that it was just another algorithm for
representing the tree graphially.I may be misusing the term a little. Not sure.
I'll explain as well as I can something that I think is Cool.
Imagine you have a graph of infinite size in a plane. Those are tedious
to display, because they require monitors of infinite size, which can
get expensive. The nodes are all roughly equidistant from their neighbors
and roughly the same in size (not that it really matters).Now imagine you have a fat convex lens that you can pass over this plane.
The node you hover over will be centered and will be the largest one. As
you look off in any direction, the nodes are smaller and closer together.
As you approach the boundary of the lens, you're approaching infinity.
Like that Escher print with the angels and the demons, or one of the
variants thereof.As you move the lens, a different node comes into focus. It is now the
largest and most central, and it is still surrounded by a potentially
infinite number of nodes.There have been applets and even browsers made which worked this way.
You could "drag" nodes offcenter into focus. To travel toward infinity,
just keep dragging. And so on.The StarTree example at inxight.com is a fairly good one. I think they
have a demo or something.As for what I want it for: Well, it's premature. But I'd like to have an
interface like that as an alternative interface for Tycho.
Since it's for Tycho, wouldn't it be better to have a Ruby implementation
(or Ruby with an extention of some sort) so you don't have to rely on
having Java installed as well?
Also, maybe there are easier ways of acheiving a similar effect to this
hyperbolic view (which does seem fairly compute intensive)? For example,
couldn't you just view a variable number of levels from the center of your
tree view (so when you zoom in, you get more levels and when you zoom out
you get less)?
Sure it sounds cool, but I'm just not sure that the hyperbolic view adds
that much advantage for a user interface... There's probably an easier
way.
Phil
···
Hal Fulton <hal9000@hypermetrics.com> wrote:
Hal Fulton <hal9000@hypermetrics.com> wrote:
<sigh> So far, I have stayed away from this issue and have not been
bitten by it.
Software patents and patents in general are perverted .. and total
utter BS -- they do the opposite of what they should be doing.
Let's better change the subject before I start falling into the spam filters :-).
How is Euruko?? Is anyone blogging about it??
I made some photos & some some notes .. I will upload it much
later tomorrow. Right now I sit in the kitchen with Matju and code
a bit.
Thanks,
-A
I have been blogging about EuRuKo here:
http://www.burningdragon.co.uk
still more to come also
Kingsley
Phil Tomson wrote:
Since it's for Tycho, wouldn't it be better to have a Ruby implementation (or Ruby with an extention of some sort) so you don't have to rely on having Java installed as well?
I agree. Hal, drop what you're doing and write a Ruby implementation, would ya? 
Seriously, though, a Ruby implementation would be a more generally-desirable solution, anyway.
Also, maybe there are easier ways of acheiving a similar effect to this hyperbolic view (which does seem fairly compute intensive)? For example, couldn't you just view a variable number of levels from the center of your tree view (so when you zoom in, you get more levels and when you zoom out you get less)?
Sure it sounds cool, but I'm just not sure that the hyperbolic view adds that much advantage for a user interface... There's probably an easier way.
It not only sounds cool, it *is* cool. I've used an interface that used a hyperbolic tree, and it is *really* slick. I think it would be great to have something like that in Tycho.
···
--
Jamis Buck
jgb3@email.byu.edu
http://www.jamisbuck.org/jamis
Phil Tomson wrote:
Since it's for Tycho, wouldn't it be better to have a Ruby implementation (or Ruby with an extention of some sort) so you don't have to rely on having Java installed as well?
That would be good, but I'm not the guy to write it. 
Also, maybe there are easier ways of acheiving a similar effect to this hyperbolic view (which does seem fairly compute intensive)? For example, couldn't you just view a variable number of levels from the center of your tree view (so when you zoom in, you get more levels and when you zoom out you get less)?
That is a very interesting idea.
Sure it sounds cool, but I'm just not sure that the hyperbolic view adds that much advantage for a user interface... There's probably an easier way.
Well, bottom line, I'm half-dreaming. A hyperbolic view is not on my list
of top 20 things to do for Tycho.
Of course, I'm curious to see how it would look/feel. But it would be an
alternative interface at best, I think, not the main one.
Hal
Armin Roehrl wrote:
How is Euruko?? Is anyone blogging about it??
I made some photos & some some notes .. I will upload it much
later tomorrow. Right now I sit in the kitchen with Matju and code
a bit.
I'm sure it was great. I hope to be able to afford to go next year.
2003 was a blast.
I'd love to be in your kitchen coding right now. And eating.
Cheers,
Hal
I have been blogging about Euruko at http://kronavita.de/chris/blog/
Happy reading,
Christian Neukirchen
···
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 03:42:01 +0900, Kingsley <kingsley@icecode.org> wrote:
I have been blogging about EuRuKo here:
http://www.burningdragon.co.uk
still more to come also
Kingsley
In article <416897ED.9080003@email.byu.edu>,
···
Jamis Buck <jgb3@email.byu.edu> wrote:
Phil Tomson wrote:
Sure it sounds cool, but I'm just not sure that the hyperbolic view adds
that much advantage for a user interface... There's probably an easier
way.It not only sounds cool, it *is* cool. I've used an interface that used
a hyperbolic tree, and it is *really* slick. I think it would be great
to have something like that in Tycho.
I guess I'm thinking that it would be nice to be able to use Tycho on a
PDA and I'm a bit worried that the hyperbolic view might be a bit
heavy-weight for a PDA. (it sounds computationally expensive, but maybe
it isn't that bad)
Phil