Good cross-platform IDE / multiple document text editor for ruby / rails?

ruby-talk
21

I've added basic rails syntax support for Editors that make use of
kate part (Kate, Kdevelop, Quanta Plus)
There was a recent discussion (w/ instructions, and syntax file) of that here:
http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.kde.devel.quanta.user/7286

I hope to start work this weekend on adding document structure view,
and auto-complete, to Quanta Plus (kdewebdev ide).

I've heard there are some ports of kde apps for windows, never used
them though. When I'm forced to use Windows, I use FreeRIDE. On *nix,
Quanta or kdevelop win hands down, depending on the app you're coding.
(Rails->Quanta, Other ruby programming->kdevelop)

These can be compiled on OS X, via fink. Although < 10.4 there's no
copy/paste between Aqua and X11

ps. Cross posting is nicely readable via gmail, assuming users are on
both lists. Which why would you not be?! :wink:

···

On 8/24/05, Michael Neumann <mneumann@ntecs.de> wrote:

On Linux, I can strongly recommend Kate or KDevelop. Maybe someday (with
QT4) they will be available on Windows, too.

--
Chris Martin
Web Developer
Open Source & Web Standards Advocate

22

A little off topic...anyone knows how to disable syntax error checking in
RDT ? It's all messed up

···

2005/8/24, Jeff Wood <jeff.darklight@gmail.com>:

Also, I know that Lothar is working on multiple platform support in
Arachno ... currently supports windows & linux ... The site says OS X
support is planned.

I use it under Windows and it's a nice editting environment, lots of
little ruby extras.

j.

On 8/24/05, Aaron Kulbe <akulbe@gmail.com> wrote:
> What about vim?
>
> On 8/24/05, Brock Weaver <brockweaver@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I apologize for the cross-post, but I thought it would spur a good
> > discussion on both lists.
> >
> > I'm looking for a good editor for doing ruby / rails development.
> > Here's my requirements:
> >
> > * Cross platform. I spend days on XP and nights on Suse, with
occassional
> > OS X
> > * Multiple Document Interface. SciTe's single doc interface just won't
do
> > * Debugging = not needed. Just a good editor
> > * FreeRIDE = no go. Doesn't respect my mouse speed
> > * Emacs = no go. I'm a vi guy, but not for this situation
> > * Teh snappy. Startup time doesn't matter, text editing does
> >
> > What I'd really like is something like the windows-only TextPad
> > application for linux.
> >
> > I've been leaning towards Eclipse, but haven't tried it out yet -- any
> > ruby / rails plugins for it?
> >
> > tia
> >
> > --
> > Brock Weaver
> > [OBC]Technique
> >
> >
>
>

--
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"

Jeff Wood

--
Giovanni Degani
tiefox@gmail.com
ICQ 965609

23

Thank you everybody for your responses. I'm sure I'll waste a few
days trying all the different editors out. :slight_smile:

···

On 8/24/05, Randy Kramer <rhkramer@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday 24 August 2005 01:55 pm, Rob . wrote:
---<good stuff snipped>---

I wasn't going to mention nedit (my favorite editor for five years now, since
I moved from Windows), because I didn't realize it was cross platform:

from http://www.nedit.org/:

"NEdit was originally developed on a Unix system and is available on all major
Unix and Linux systems. But NEdit can also run on other platforms, if there
is a working X Window environment available. For instance, NEdit runs on
MacOS X, OS/2 and MS Windows. The platforms and toolkit pages contain more
details."

I'd almost guarantee it does Ruby syntax highlighting, but if it doesn't, it
has a macro language to let you add that and almost any other feature that
you might think of. (But, not to mislead anyone, it does have a lot of
features built in. It always seems fast (seems likely since it's written in
C) and I edit 1.5 MB files frequently every day.

(It does have a few quirks, some of them related to the Motif/Lesstif GUI it
uses.)

Randy Kramer

--
Brock Weaver
[OBC]Technique

24

Randy Kramer wrote:

---<good stuff snipped>---

I wasn't going to mention nedit (my favorite editor for five years now, since
I moved from Windows), because I didn't realize it was cross platform:

from http://www.nedit.org/:

"NEdit was originally developed on a Unix system and is available on all major
Unix and Linux systems. But NEdit can also run on other platforms, if there
is a working X Window environment available. For instance, NEdit runs on
MacOS X, OS/2 and MS Windows. The platforms and toolkit pages contain more
details."

I'd almost guarantee it does Ruby syntax highlighting, but if it doesn't, it
has a macro language to let you add that and almost any other feature that
you might think of. (But, not to mislead anyone, it does have a lot of
features built in. It always seems fast (seems likely since it's written in
C) and I edit 1.5 MB files frequently every day.

(It does have a few quirks, some of them related to the Motif/Lesstif GUI it
uses.)

Randy Kramer

I've put some ruby-related nedit stuff, including syntax hilighting, at

http://raa.ruby-lang.org/project/ruby_nedit/

Getting off topic: I like nedit, but ever since I switched from
mandrake 10.1 to ubuntu hoary it's window focus has been behaving
strangely. For example, if I use Alt-D completion (or any Alt or Ctrl
command), and the mouse is outside the text area, then after the
completion, the text area refuses to accept input. The window doesn't
lose focus (in fact, if I do Alt-F Escape, I can then type normally
again). If the mouse is inside the text area, then it's all ok.

This happens with or without my own .nedit file, and it even happens in
a blank user I just created with no special X settings, and it happens
under KDE or under Gnome. I even tried building nedit from source,
rather than use the ubuntu deb, and that didn't make a difference.

Just thought I'd ask here in case anyone knew...

···

On Wednesday 24 August 2005 01:55 pm, Rob . wrote:

--
      vjoel : Joel VanderWerf : path berkeley edu : 510 665 3407

25

UniRed works well with Ruby too.

http://www.esperanto.mv.ru/UniRed/ENG/index.html

···

On 8/25/05, Jamal Hansen <jamal.hansen@gmail.com> wrote:

On 8/24/05, Michael Neumann <mneumann@ntecs.de> wrote:
> On Linux, I can strongly recommend Kate or KDevelop. Maybe someday (with
> QT4) they will be available on Windows, too.

I made the move to Linux on my home PC about 3 months ago and felt
completely lost in the text editor department until I tried Kate. It
is not cross platform, though on windows (i.e at work) I use UltraEdit
which is very similar in functionality.

--
Ruby is the digital equivalent of a big smile!
http://www.ruby-lang.org

Cristóferson Bueno - Ipatinga/MG.
www.conversadebar.org <http://www.conversadebar.org>

26

Randy Kramer wrote:
...

Do you have any alternate solutions (presuming there was a valid reason for the crossposting in the first place, which I feel there sometimes is)?

Um, no, other than to perhaps make a point of periodically summarizing discussion points from the multiple lists so people not subscribed to all lists can keep track.

James

···

--

http://www.ruby-doc.org - The Ruby Documentation Site
http://www.rubyxml.com - News, Articles, and Listings for Ruby & XML
http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys

27

And, Off Point for this post, I guess if I was going to ask for a snappy
whatever, I'd say something about the environment, like snappy on a system
running a 233 MHz Pentium, 256 MB of RAM, running a mix of processes
typically including 5 open edit windows, 10 browser windows, ...

then i think it was relevant. i've tried all the ide's on a PII/350
with plenty of ram. i found jedit, eclipse, mondrian, and freeride
unsable. arachno-ruby seemed to have problems on win2k on that system.

vim worked great (and was 'snappy') but it's editor not really an ide

i've tried all the above on a 2gig system with a 1gig of ram on xp.
eclipse was still unusable, jedit was 'slowish'. i'm assuming it's
because those two were java based.

coudln't get mondrian installed/working, freeride was usable, but
seemed to be chugging. i settled on arachno-ruby.

if i need quickie ruby code i'll fire up vim or boxer

system is 500 MHZ with 384 MB of RAM,

i'd be suprised if you were happy with the performance of eclipse,
jedit or freeride. features of those ide's aside, i found it painful
to write any serious code with.

···

Randy Kramer wrote on 8/25/2005 11:19 AM: >>i'm not sure i'd use 'snappy' and 'eclipse' together :slight_smile:

--
http://home.cogeco.ca/~tsummerfelt1
telnet://ventedspleen.dyndns.org

28

Hello Randy,

And, Off Point for this post, I guess if I was going to ask for a snappy
whatever, I'd say something about the environment, like snappy on a system
running a 233 MHz Pentium, 256 MB of RAM, running a mix of processes
typically including 5 open edit windows, 10 browser windows, ...

(I guess I'm getting carried away, but I'm sure a lot of developers on their 3
GHz, 1 GB systems think their app is snappy, but then I run it and ;-( (My
system is 500 MHZ with 384 MB of RAM, and a typical mixture of open windows
quite a bit larger than mentioned above--4 open browser with 10-15 tabs each
is not unusual, plus 6-7 konsole "tabs", 3-6 nedit windows, kmail, ...)

Sounds like a challenge. But please contact me, if you want to
participate in a little experiment.

I would like to prepare a special optimnized version of ArachnoRuby for you
that runs on such slow machines. It will contain no debugging code at all.
I did this in the past for someone who tried it on a 450 Apple G4 Cube,
and i worked snappy - except that the MacOSX port is not very bugfree
at the moment.

···

On Thursday 25 August 2005 08:15 am, tony summerfelt wrote:

Brock Weaver wrote on 8/24/2005 10:51 AM: >> > I've been leaning towards Eclipse, but haven't tried it out yet -- any >> > ruby / rails plugins for it? >> >> i'm not sure i'd use 'snappy' and 'eclipse' together :slight_smile:

--
Best regards, emailto: scholz at scriptolutions dot com
Lothar Scholz http://www.ruby-ide.com
CTO Scriptolutions Ruby, PHP, Python IDE 's

29

That's what I use. With vim's ability to split windows horizontally and
vertically (and open different buffers in each) and keyword completion,
along with the nice minibuffer explorer plugin on
vim.sourceforge.net<http://vim.sourceforge.net>,
it's about as close to the perfect IDE that a vi user could ask for.

How does the keyword completion in vim work?

Also, does anyone know of a good erb syntax highlighter file for vim?

Thanks,
Joe

···

On 8/24/05, Mando Escamilla <mando.escamilla@gmail.com> wrote:

On 8/24/05, Aaron Kulbe <akulbe@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What about vim?
>
> On 8/24/05, Brock Weaver <brockweaver@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I apologize for the cross-post, but I thought it would spur a good
> > discussion on both lists.
> >
> > I'm looking for a good editor for doing ruby / rails development.
> > Here's my requirements:
> >
> > * Cross platform. I spend days on XP and nights on Suse, with
> occassional
> > OS X
> > * Multiple Document Interface. SciTe's single doc interface just won't
> do
> > * Debugging = not needed. Just a good editor
> > * FreeRIDE = no go. Doesn't respect my mouse speed
> > * Emacs = no go. I'm a vi guy, but not for this situation
> > * Teh snappy. Startup time doesn't matter, text editing does
> >
> > What I'd really like is something like the windows-only TextPad
> > application for linux.
> >
> > I've been leaning towards Eclipse, but haven't tried it out yet -- any
> > ruby / rails plugins for it?
> >
> > tia
> >
> > --
> > Brock Weaver
> > [OBC]Technique
> >
> >
>
>

30

just a little note: SciTe DOES SUPPORT tabbed mdi (disabled by
default). you just have to edit a few entries in the globals config
file to make it suit your needs.
cya

···

On 8/24/05, Giovanni Degani <tiefox@gmail.com> wrote:

A little off topic...anyone knows how to disable syntax error checking in
RDT ? It's all messed up

2005/8/24, Jeff Wood <jeff.darklight@gmail.com>:
>
> Also, I know that Lothar is working on multiple platform support in
> Arachno ... currently supports windows & linux ... The site says OS X
> support is planned.
>
> I use it under Windows and it's a nice editting environment, lots of
> little ruby extras.
>
> j.
>
> On 8/24/05, Aaron Kulbe <akulbe@gmail.com> wrote:
> > What about vim?
> >
> > On 8/24/05, Brock Weaver <brockweaver@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I apologize for the cross-post, but I thought it would spur a good
> > > discussion on both lists.
> > >
> > > I'm looking for a good editor for doing ruby / rails development.
> > > Here's my requirements:
> > >
> > > * Cross platform. I spend days on XP and nights on Suse, with
> occassional
> > > OS X
> > > * Multiple Document Interface. SciTe's single doc interface just won't
> do
> > > * Debugging = not needed. Just a good editor
> > > * FreeRIDE = no go. Doesn't respect my mouse speed
> > > * Emacs = no go. I'm a vi guy, but not for this situation
> > > * Teh snappy. Startup time doesn't matter, text editing does
> > >
> > > What I'd really like is something like the windows-only TextPad
> > > application for linux.
> > >
> > > I've been leaning towards Eclipse, but haven't tried it out yet -- any
> > > ruby / rails plugins for it?
> > >
> > > tia
> > >
> > > --
> > > Brock Weaver
> > > [OBC]Technique
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "So long, and thanks for all the fish"
>
> Jeff Wood
>
>

--
Giovanni Degani
tiefox@gmail.com
ICQ 965609

--
BlueSteel | | Merkoth

31

I don't know, but I have a thought. I'm at my Mandrake 10 system right now--I
have no problem like you describe either on this or my Mandrake 10.1 system.

But, iirc, both Mandrake 10 and 10.1 come with nedit 5.3. I upgraded both
systems to 5.5 (not because of any real problem with 5.3, but because there
was some feature that I needed in 5.5 (atm, I can't recall what that was)).
Anyway, as I recall, upgrading to 5.5 was no problem, I think I may have even
compiled it from source rather than finding a binary RPM. (One of the first
times I ever managed that (at least, without IRC handholding).)

Hmm, something else is coming back to me, too, just a random thought--is your
nedit running with Motif or Lesstif? (Check the version information under
help.) There are one or more problems associated with using lesstif--I don't
recall whether the nedit that came with Mandrake 10 and 10.1 used lesstif or
motif, but I'm now using motif--I may have switched when I installed nedit
5.5. (And, iiuc, whatever political/freedom issues existed with motif that
caused the creation of lesstif are now resolved.)

regards,
Randy Kramer

···

On Wednesday 24 August 2005 03:27 pm, Joel VanderWerf wrote:

Getting off topic: I like nedit, but ever since I switched from
mandrake 10.1 to ubuntu hoary it's window focus has been behaving
strangely. For example, if I use Alt-D completion (or any Alt or Ctrl
command), and the mouse is outside the text area, then after the
completion, the text area refuses to accept input. The window doesn't
lose focus (in fact, if I do Alt-F Escape, I can then type normally
again). If the mouse is inside the text area, then it's all ok.

This happens with or without my own .nedit file, and it even happens in
a blank user I just created with no special X settings, and it happens
under KDE or under Gnome. I even tried building nedit from source,
rather than use the ubuntu deb, and that didn't make a difference.

Just thought I'd ask here in case anyone knew...

32

That makes sense, and maybe we should even start suggesting that as an
obligation of any one that starts a cross posted thread. (Not sure how far
we'd get, but I might start out any reply with "Thanks for cross posting
that, please keep us informed of any interesting posts from the other
list(s). :wink:

Of course, if I start the thread, I may not be so eager to keep both lists up
to date. Maybe a summary (oh, that's what you said ;-), at strategic times,
one being when I feel my question is answered or whatever. (And if
discussion continues or is going off on some tangent(s), maybe mention that.)

regards,
Randy Kramer

···

On Thursday 25 August 2005 12:34 pm, James Britt wrote:

Randy Kramer wrote:
> Do you have any alternate solutions (presuming there was a valid reason
> for the crossposting in the first place, which I feel there sometimes
> is)?

Um, no, other than to perhaps make a point of periodically summarizing
discussion points from the multiple lists so people not subscribed to
all lists can keep track.

33

Thanks! (I use nedit, works great!)

Randy Kramer

···

On Friday 26 August 2005 11:50 am, tony summerfelt wrote:

Randy Kramer wrote on 8/25/2005 11:19 AM:
> system is 500 MHZ with 384 MB of RAM,

i'd be suprised if you were happy with the performance of eclipse,
jedit or freeride. features of those ide's aside, i found it painful
to write any serious code with.

34

Sounds like a challenge. But please contact me, if you want to
participate in a little experiment.

I'll start by saying "maybe".

You should know that I'm not the OP, and I was commenting to him rather than
expressing my own search for a snappy cross-platform IDE, in fact I'm fairly
happy with nedit for the time being (more below) and am taking a sojourn into
lisp and therefore spending some time with emacs/xemacs.

But:

   * I'm always on the lookout for a better editor, and

   * I'm looking for an editing component (widget, control, ...) for a project
I'd like to do

For that project, I'd like to find an editing component that:
   * is snappy, even on slower overloaded machines
   * without listing all of them at the moment, has all the typical features
of an editor, and in addition has the following:
      * customizable syntax highlighting
      * keyboard macros (Arachno has this, according to
http://www.ruby-ide.com/ruby/features.php\)
      * a macro language, and
      * which can be integrated with recorded keyboard macros (it is quite
common for me to start writing a macro by recording keystrokes. That macro
may not have all the features I need (especially conditionals) so I am used
to taking that macro and adding code from the macro language so that it can
do everything I need)
      * folding based on custom "sentinels" or features of the file (I have
nedit macros that fold on any TWiki level heading (i.e., on "---+ " through
"---++++++ ")
      * in the macros, the ability to define a portion of a file and search
within that portion (that's not explained very well (I'm not sure I'm stating
all the requirements), but here's an alternate explanation: I have files in
which I store multiple records (separated by a record separator string
(currently "---++ ", but intended to be easily changable)). I have nedit
macros that can search the file and find records that contain all of a list
of search terms.
      * able to export selected records to another application for further
processing (sort of like an abiltiy to sort, although the first external
application will not return any results, the record is just specially
formatted and displayed for the user) (so, in fact, unlike the similar
capability in nedit, I need an option that either deletes the text sent to
the other application for replacement by what is sent back from that
application, or that does not delete that text (as nothing will be sent back
from that application)
      * written in a language that I can grok so if necessary I can customize
it still further (and with a license that lets me do that)
      * usable at resolutions from 640x480 and up

This was just a quick off the top of my head list--if Arachno satisfies these
criteria I may need to look a little closer.

What is the editor component in Arachno written in? Does it have any sort of
open source license? Does it have the features listed above?

I would like to prepare a special optimnized version of ArachnoRuby for you
that runs on such slow machines. It will contain no debugging code at all.
I did this in the past for someone who tried it on a 450 Apple G4 Cube,
and i worked snappy - except that the MacOSX port is not very bugfree
at the moment.

It would be wonderful if Arachno would satisfy me in all the respects listed
above. If not, perhaps someone else on the list is interested in testing out
the special optimized version.

regards,
Randy Kramer

···

On Friday 26 August 2005 07:56 pm, Lothar Scholz wrote:

35

Check out :help completion:

Completion can be done for:

1. Whole lines |i_CTRL-X_CTRL-L|
2. keywords in the current file |i_CTRL-X_CTRL-N|
3. keywords in 'dictionary' |i_CTRL-X_CTRL-K|
4. keywords in 'thesaurus', thesaurus-style |i_CTRL-X_CTRL-T|
5. keywords in the current and included files |i_CTRL-X_CTRL-I|
6. tags |i_CTRL-X_CTRL-]|
7. file names |i_CTRL-X_CTRL-F|
8. definitions or macros |i_CTRL-X_CTRL-D|
9. Vim command-line |i_CTRL-X_CTRL-V|
10. keywords in 'complete' |i_CTRL-N|

But I don't like the CTRL-X_CTRL-* key combinations, so I use SuperTab:

http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=182

From this website:

description
Use your tab key to do all your completion in insert mode!
The script remembers the last completion type, and applies that.
Eg.: You want to enter /usr/local/lib/povray3/
You type (in insert mode):
/u<C-x><C-f>/l<Tab><Tab><Tab>/p<Tab>/i<Tab>
You can also manipulate the completion type used by changing g:complType variable.

I mainly use it in mode 2. It works great for ruby.

Dominik

···

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 13:45:15 +0200, Joe Van Dyk <joevandyk@gmail.com> wrote:

On 8/24/05, Mando Escamilla <mando.escamilla@gmail.com> wrote:

That's what I use. With vim's ability to split windows horizontally and
vertically (and open different buffers in each) and keyword completion,
along with the nice minibuffer explorer plugin on
vim.sourceforge.net<http://vim.sourceforge.net>,
it's about as close to the perfect IDE that a vi user could ask for.

How does the keyword completion in vim work?

36

<snip>

Also, does anyone know of a good erb syntax highlighter file for vim?

There will be an erb syntax file (eruby.vim) in the next release of
vim-ruby. Until then you can pull it from CVS.

http://rubyforge.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/?cvsroot=vim-ruby

Regards,
Doug

···

On Sun, Aug 28, 2005 at 08:45:15PM +0900, Joe Van Dyk wrote:

37

Randy Kramer wrote:

Hmm, something else is coming back to me, too, just a random thought--is your
nedit running with Motif or Lesstif? (Check the version information under

Beautiful! That was it: just had to install motif and follow the
instructions in Makefile.linux for editres. That was a major frustration.

I'll pass this on to Thorsten Hause, since he may know how to get this
fix into the Debian package.

···

--
      vjoel : Joel VanderWerf : path berkeley edu : 510 665 3407

38

What I suggest is that people don't cross-post, but rather choose one
list that has the bigger chance to answer the question they have. If
the thread dies with no satisfying answer, then start a new one on the
second ML with a summary of the preceding discussion included.

···

On 25/08/05, Randy Kramer <rhkramer@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday 25 August 2005 12:34 pm, James Britt wrote:
> Randy Kramer wrote:
> > Do you have any alternate solutions (presuming there was a valid reason
> > for the crossposting in the first place, which I feel there sometimes
> > is)?
>
> Um, no, other than to perhaps make a point of periodically summarizing
> discussion points from the multiple lists so people not subscribed to
> all lists can keep track.

That makes sense, and maybe we should even start suggesting that as an
obligation of any one that starts a cross posted thread. (Not sure how far
we'd get, but I might start out any reply with "Thanks for cross posting
that, please keep us informed of any interesting posts from the other
list(s). :wink:

Of course, if I start the thread, I may not be so eager to keep both lists up
to date. Maybe a summary (oh, that's what you said ;-), at strategic times,
one being when I feel my question is answered or whatever. (And if
discussion continues or is going off on some tangent(s), maybe mention that.)

regards,
Randy Kramer

--
Cheers,
  zimba

http://zimba.oree.ch

39

ah, i thought you were looking for a cross-platform ide...

i've just jumped through a couple of hoops trying nedit for windows.
imho, not worth it to write ruby code with on windows...

···

Randy Kramer wrote on 8/26/2005 1:45 PM:

Thanks! (I use nedit, works great!)

--
http://home.cogeco.ca/~tsummerfelt1
telnet://ventedspleen.dyndns.org

40

Hmm, maybe I should have said something about why I'm not considering nedit
for the editing component:

   * I am, but for one thing I haven't discussed it so far with the nedit
developers, and there are a few (potential problems)
      * I'm not sure that it is currently available as a component, nor that
anyone is working on such, nor that any of the developers would have any
interest in supporting / helping make it into a component
      * folding in nedit is not well supported--what I mean is that my folding
macros really fold and unfold a line (i.e., either show a block of text as a
block of text, or fold (unfold) it into one long line that stretches off to
the right--as long as I view lines like that with wrap set to none, the line
does stretch far off to the right and I can treat it as folded--there is no
(simple) way to really hide text in nedit
      * a minor issue is the somewhat dated look due to the Motif/Lesstif
stuff that it is based on
      * nedit expects that if I send text to another application the other
application will send back something to be inserted into the file in place of
that text (therefore it deletes that text--I need to make that behavior
optional so that text sent to another application is not deleted (of course,
a workaround is to have that other application send back a copy of the
original text--I'm not sure how difficult that might be, and in any case it
is more cumbersome than necessary)

There may be some other issues that I can't think of or am not aware of at the
moment.

If I haven't said it earlier, nedit is snappy in my machines with the typical
mix of applications I run.

regards,
Randy Kramer

···

On Saturday 27 August 2005 03:17 pm, Randy Kramer wrote:

On Friday 26 August 2005 07:56 pm, Lothar Scholz wrote:
> Sounds like a challenge. But please contact me, if you want to
> participate in a little experiment.

I'll start by saying "maybe".

---<my stuff snipped>---