[EVALUATION] - E04 - Mr. Yukihiro Matsumoto (Ruby's Weakest Point)

ruby-talk
1

[EVALUATION] - E03e - The Ruby Object Model (Summary)
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/msg/e7ba39676c4d6f2f?hl=en

···

-

The above thread has shown the direct responsible for the defective "ri Class" documentation:

It's the language designer, Mr. Yukihiro Matsumoto.

-

Mr. Matsumoto had not the decency to publically confirm this - and to apologize for the caused inconvenience.

He had not the courage to say "Hey, lovely folks of ruby-talk, this guy is right, with all his points - and I'm the responsible".

He had not the strength to say "Behave like analysts, like scientists - and stop throwing stones to an researching individual".

-

Mr. Matsumoto has silently admitted point b)

"Horizontal arrows do not represent inheritance"

-

He has _not_ admitted point a)

the faulty and missleading usage of the term "metaclass"

But in past, he heas clearly confirmed what is reality:

"In Ruby, the Class class is the class of all classes, no metaclass."
http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/40537

but he uses the term "metaclass" in source-code:

"metaclass = rb_make_metaclass(rb_cObject, rb_cClass);"
http://www.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/ruby/object.c?rev=1.168

setting the foundation for many missunderstandings.

Fact is: the "exclusive class" of an ruby object is not a "metaclass".

-

He has not admitted point c)

An language future, which is not accessible via the standard object mechanisms is not a part of its object model. It's an implementation detail.

Mr. Matsumoto should have either:
  * admitted the validity of point "c", or
  * confirmed that his _refusal_ to make this directly accessible was a failure.

btw: what he "considered abuse" is irrelevant:

http://www.ruby-talk.org/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/40548

-

"Sorry for being a Vapoware for Long Time"
"Too Much Ideas popping in my Brain"
http://www.rubyist.net/~matz/slides/rc2002/mgp00026.html

This is nothing worse.

Worse is the inability to admit and the inability to accept analytic input from the community.

Worse is the inability to couple the development process to the own understanding processes.

-

I've read somewhere, that Mr. Matsumoto is working on Version 2 of ruby.

He will most possibly understand, why I have intensive doubts about ruby and its future.

"Human Factor" - "Character of Designer".
http://www.rubyist.net/~matz/slides/rc2002/mgp00018.html

Yes, this is very important.

His ability to admit failure.

His ability to apologize.

His ability to protect those in a weaker position.

But most of all:

his ability to "spiritually lead" a community, thus it becomes efficient, and it does not behave publically like herd of savages in the middle ages.

-

"Human Factor" - "Developing Community" "User Community".
http://www.rubyist.net/~matz/slides/rc2002/mgp00018.html

I thought the "savages of comp.lang.lisp" would never be topped by another community.

I was wrong.

The major/minor parts of this community are as ridiculous as inefficient.

A few positive exceptions, which act like scientists and analysts.

-

Ruby [context of comp.lang.ruby], the summary is:

Weak puppets with a weak leader.

But...

....possibly I'm wrong.

And all this was just a missunderstanding.

-

My subconscious has signaled yesterday that this was my last public analysis.

I've not expected this would take so many years.

I'm happy.

It's so exhausting to assimilate the weaknesses and strenghts of systems which have an high amount of human factors:

http://lazaridis.com/efficiency/process.html#ideal_structure

-

I will soon publish an updated version of The Ruby Object Model, which will contain the "exclusive class" or "xclass":

http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/ruby

This should help evaluators to look at ruby, without getting confused from this [unnecessary] insider-terminology.

-

Have a good time.

..

--
http://lazaridis.com

2

Funny. I sometimes get frustrated with the lack of responses to some of
my questiosn/explorations. But this guy gets an endless stream of
responses, and it culminates with smack like this? Oh dear. Lord knows
I too can get a little "over the top" on occasion. But this? Give me a
break. This is simply numb-nuts.

Mr. Ilias Lazaridis please take some time to learn Humility.

T.

3

This response was written solely to make sure that no one that reads
Ilias Lazaridis message will get the wrong idea about Ruby and its
community.

Ilias Lazaridis, April 23:

[A load of misinformation and lies has been cut out of this response]

I will soon publish an updated version of The Ruby Object Model, which
will contain the "exclusive class" or "xclass":

http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/ruby

This should help evaluators to look at ruby, without getting confused
from this [unnecessary] insider-terminology.

For the record, this guy is not an authority on Ruby and his
“evalutations” of Ruby are riddled with errors and misinformation.
Please disregard anything that Ilias Lazaridis has to say about Ruby (or
any other programming language for that matter).

Please do not judge the merits of the Ruby programming language or the
goodwill of the Ruby community. We are a friendly community and we make
every effort to make everyone feel at home. Sadly, Ilias Lazaridis has
failed to see this and has therefore, kicking and screaming, finally
decided to leave us. We will not miss him. We will miss you, however,
if you decide to reject Ruby or its community based on anything that
Ilias Lazaridis has stated; in this thread or in any of his previous
ones.

Ilias Lazaridis misdoings and misbehavior has not been limited to this
mailing-list/USENET group. He has been active on many language-related
mailing-list and USENET groups over the years, always with the same
horrendous attitude and behavior towards other people on those lists and
in those groups. An example is the comp.lang.lisp group, where he
during the autumn of 2002 flooded the group with questions while
ignoring the answers that he was provided with; see
http://www.tfeb.org/lisp/mad-people.html for more information.

Again, please do not consider anything Ilias Lazaridis has to say about
Ruby or its community as valid. Instead, you might consider giving
Ruby a try. It's a wonderful programming language, written by a very
humble and helpful person and we in the community try our best to
follow his example.

For authoritative information on Ruby, you may visit pages like

http://ruby-lang.org/
        The Ruby home page

        A wiki full of relevant information for new users

        The Ruby documentation project
        (a very good book on Ruby can be found online here)

http://pine.fm/LearnToProgram/
        A good introduction to programming, using Ruby

http://poignantguide.net/ruby/
        A very special introduction to programming in Ruby

http://redhanded.hobix.com/
        One of the many blogs that discuss Ruby-related issues

I hope you will enjoy programming in Ruby as much as I do,
        nikolai

···

--
Nikolai Weibull: now available free of charge at http://bitwi.se/\!
Born in Chicago, IL USA; currently residing in Gothenburg, Sweden.
main(){printf(&linux["\021%six\012\0"],(linux)["have"]+"fun"-97);}

4

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

Behave like analysts, like scientists
and stop throwing stones to an researching individual.

Ruby is a stone. You are more like small bladder, not researching analyst.

but he uses the term "metaclass" in source-code:

the_class_class_is_the_class_of_all_classes is surely a meta_class

I use little variables like 'id' and 'it',
and sometimes big variables too
like 'constantinople' and 'timbuktu'

Fact is: the "exclusive class" of an ruby object is not a "metaclass".

a meta-banana is a changed banana, a transformational banana, a banana standing behind a banana, a temporal banana, an alternating banana, a trancendental banana, a higher banana state, or something related to a banana. Facts and meta facts can be infinitely wrapped in many layers around a banana into russian doll bananas.

An language future, which is not accessible via the standard object
mechanisms is not a part of its object model. It's an implementation
detail.

correction - "A feature"...not "an future".
Neither C nor C++ have a stack nor a meta-stack.

Mr. Matsumoto should have either:

Error: "should" implies some as yet undefined shared morality or as yet undefined common goal.
Logo has turtle graphics, therefore Ruby "ought" to have turtle graphics? (or did I miss it)

it does not behave publically like herd of savages in
the middle ages.

A frightening thought. I suspect most who are in their savage middle ages and of sound mind do not seek out parental-child relationships with language designers. I've "savagedly" satired that you really ought to have that LD abuse co-dependency complex thing checked out. It cannot be healthy nor very happy for you.

Ruby is fun. Ruby is not official national socialist workers party language. Ruby will not make trains run on time. Ruby will not turn savages into sheep. Maybe cartoon foxes or star monkeys but not sheep.

But...

....possibly I'm wrong.

And all this was just a missunderstanding.

It really was all a dream. You really don't own a bed and breakfast in Vermont.

My subconscious has signaled yesterday that this was my last public
analysis.

I've not expected this would take so many years.

I'm happy.

Me too.

Have a good time.

Ruby is fun.

···

--
J. Lambert

5

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

[EVALUATION] - E03e - The Ruby Object Model (Summary)
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/msg/e7ba39676c4d6f2f?hl=en

-

The above thread has shown the direct responsible for the defective "ri Class" documentation:

It's the language designer, Mr. Yukihiro Matsumoto.

you see what happen, Mr. Matsumoto, if you don't lead a community?

You seem to just accept the applause and praise, without taking any responsibilities.

···

-

Someone forges my identity, and pretends to be "Ilias Lazaridis", whilst leading astray the readers.

-

To this someone:

Forging an identity is illegal - even within usenet.

please correct your action, whilst clarifying/identifying the messages you've posted.

-

To the people which have responded to this thread:

Thank you for confirming my words:

weak puppets - unable to admit failure.

-

Mr. Matsumoto had not the decency to publically confirm this - and to apologize for the caused inconvenience.

He had not the courage to say "Hey, lovely folks of ruby-talk, this guy is right, with all his points - and I'm the responsible".

He had not the strength to say "Behave like analysts, like scientists - and stop throwing stones to an researching individual".

-

Mr. Matsumoto has silently admitted point b)

"Horizontal arrows do not represent inheritance"

-

He has _not_ admitted point a)

the faulty and missleading usage of the term "metaclass"

But in past, he heas clearly confirmed what is reality:

"In Ruby, the Class class is the class of all classes, no metaclass."
http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/40537

but he uses the term "metaclass" in source-code:

"metaclass = rb_make_metaclass(rb_cObject, rb_cClass);"
http://www.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/ruby/object.c?rev=1.168

setting the foundation for many missunderstandings.

Fact is: the "exclusive class" of an ruby object is not a "metaclass".

-

He has not admitted point c)

An language future, which is not accessible via the standard object mechanisms is not a part of its object model. It's an implementation detail.

Mr. Matsumoto should have either:
* admitted the validity of point "c", or
* confirmed that his _refusal_ to make this directly accessible was a failure.

btw: what he "considered abuse" is irrelevant:

http://www.ruby-talk.org/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/40548

-

"Sorry for being a Vapoware for Long Time"
"Too Much Ideas popping in my Brain"
http://www.rubyist.net/~matz/slides/rc2002/mgp00026.html

This is nothing worse.

Worse is the inability to admit and the inability to accept analytic input from the community.

Worse is the inability to couple the development process to the own understanding processes.

-

I've read somewhere, that Mr. Matsumoto is working on Version 2 of ruby.

He will most possibly understand, why I have intensive doubts about ruby and its future.

"Human Factor" - "Character of Designer".
http://www.rubyist.net/~matz/slides/rc2002/mgp00018.html

Yes, this is very important.

His ability to admit failure.

His ability to apologize.

His ability to protect those in a weaker position.

But most of all:

his ability to "spiritually lead" a community, thus it becomes efficient, and it does not behave publically like herd of savages in the middle ages.

-

"Human Factor" - "Developing Community" "User Community".
http://www.rubyist.net/~matz/slides/rc2002/mgp00018.html

I thought the "savages of comp.lang.lisp" would never be topped by another community.

I was wrong.

The major/minor parts of this community are as ridiculous as inefficient.

A few positive exceptions, which act like scientists and analysts.

-

Ruby [context of comp.lang.ruby], the summary is:

Weak puppets with a weak leader.

But...

...possibly I'm wrong.

And all this was just a missunderstanding.

-

My subconscious has signaled yesterday that this was my last public analysis.

I've not expected this would take so many years.

I'm happy.

It's so exhausting to assimilate the weaknesses and strenghts of systems which have an high amount of human factors:

http://lazaridis.com/efficiency/process.html#ideal_structure

-

I will soon publish an updated version of The Ruby Object Model, which will contain the "exclusive class" or "xclass":

http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/ruby

This should help evaluators to look at ruby, without getting confused from this [unnecessary] insider-terminology.

-

Have a good time.

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

6

All of you are responsible for feeding this troll. You were ALL warned
this was a troll. From the first time he posted here the group was
warned about this troll.

But no. You had to feed it. You had to defend it. You had to help
turn threads into inane "movie" discussions with or without the mad man
himself. You had to attack the people warning you this was a troll.
Even people like Florian and matz participated in the feeding of Ilias.

So please Trans and others, don't act surprised or stupid now.

7

Silence yields a quiet mind.

8

[snip]

I thought this thread was closed?

If you come across a message from Ilias Lazaridis on
this mailing list or newsgroup (or archives thereof),
please be aware that this poster has been deemed a troll
(by myself, by the power bestowed in me by the Usenet
Sheriff's Department), and anything present in his posts
should be treated as incorrect, inaccurate or highly
susceptible as far as it concerns the ruby programming
language or the participants of this mailing list and
newsgroup.

If you have a question about ruby or programming, please
either submit your question to comp.lang.ruby or its
mirrored mailing list ruby-talk@ruby-lang.org (or try
another search result); this way you will be promptly
provided with correct information with the additional
benefit of the company of other ruby programmers and
the occasional slice of chunky bacon.

Yours,
  Deputy Saynatkari

···

Le 24/4/2005, "Ilias Lazaridis" <ilias@lazaridis.com> a écrit:

--
template<typename duck>
void quack(duck& d) { d.quack(); }

9

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

Forging an identity is illegal - even within usenet.

I'm afraid that yet once again you are wrong. In the landmark 'Nudds v. Nudds' case, the usenet supreme high council ruled in favor of Nudds saying in effect that "nudds is nudds and who are we to say nudds ain't nudds". This was subsequently confirmed later in 'Austin v. Austin'.

Besides Ilias Lazaridis is such a common name. I thought you were my dentist at first. He's funny too, and often posts when he's hopped up on nitrous oxide.

weak puppets - unable to admit failure.

*bleat* *bleat*

"When I grow up I want to be a real boy." - Pinnochio

···

--
J Lambert

10

No, not surprised or stupid about trolling --I still think it is good
to answer trolls as if they are not trolls. That's only fair. But I am
suprised at just how far it can actually go.

T.

11

All of you are responsible for feeding this troll. You were ALL warned
this was a troll. From the first time he posted here the group was
warned about this troll.

But no. You had to feed it. You had to defend it. You had to help
turn threads into inane "movie" discussions with or without the mad man
himself. You had to attack the people warning you this was a troll.
Even people like Florian and matz participated in the feeding of Ilias.

So please Trans and others, don't act surprised or stupid now.

Forgive us if we dont just assume your omniscience and take anything
you say to be the biblical truth, some of us prefer to give people a
chance first before judging them.

Gawd, the mental image of the smug look of satisfaction on your face
as you typed the above ruins my good mood completly.

Yes you were right, a class act wouldn't rub our faces in it, it was
bad enough anyway.

···

On 4/24/05, Seppuku <fscker2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

--
Into RFID? www.rfidnewsupdate.com Simple, fast, news.

12

Seppuku wrote:

All of you are responsible for feeding this troll. You were ALL
warned this was a troll. From the first time he posted here the
group was warned about this troll.

But no. You had to feed it. You had to defend it. You had to help
turn threads into inane "movie" discussions with or without the mad
man himself. You had to attack the people warning you this was a
troll. Even people like Florian and matz participated in the feeding
of Ilias.

So please Trans and others, don't act surprised or stupid now.

Ruby is fun. :slight_smile:

13

Hi ..

···

On Saturday 23 April 2005 08:52, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

Silence yields a quiet mind.

Silence yields silence.
A quiet mind yields a quiet mind.

- an old Zen precept

14

Jon A. Lambert wrote:

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

Forging an identity is illegal - even within usenet.

I'm afraid that yet once again you are wrong. In the landmark 'Nudds v. Nudds' case, the usenet supreme high council ruled in favor of Nudds saying in effect that "nudds is nudds and who are we to say nudds ain't nudds". This was subsequently confirmed later in 'Austin v. Austin'.

Besides Ilias Lazaridis is such a common name. I thought you were my dentist at first. He's funny too, and often posts when he's hopped up on nitrous oxide.

weak puppets - unable to admit failure.

*bleat* *bleat*

"When I grow up I want to be a real boy." - Pinnochio

--
J Lambert

you forgot something:

"Ruby is fun"

···

-

I've never met before this combination of intellect and simulated stupidity.

A new species.

But: your stupidity is simulated - and thus it's not attractive enouth.

"Ruby is fun" - so have your fun.

-

Maybe one day Ruby becomes Efficient, Straightforward and Constistend.

And most important: _really_ fully OO based.

Then I will possibly use it.

-

Now, lovely species "simulated stupidity", it's _really_ time.

Closing Thread.

..

--
http://lazaridis.com

15

Slience may lead a quiet mind, but being rude yeilds contempt. From
reading around on the internet about you, there seems to be alot of
that for you.
You insult those who've actually created. Yet, from searching with
Google, I find nothing that you've created. You only complain. You
don't even have a resume to show what you've helped do.
You don't actually fix the problems you find. Just complain! Those who
are not part of the solution are part of the problem and you are part
of the problem. Many others seek to understand and then actually
better the languages or tools. You seek to find flaws, crap on those
who create and then walk away.... Thus only leaving behind destruction.
Thus you are the failure, you are part of a problem, you are worthless
to those you criticize!

It is about time for you to go create something that is "better" than
all the things you criticize and then show us the way. Till then don't
come back and don't bother replying as your a waste of all of our time
as well as your own. You can not create anything but unrest! Be gone!

16

Seppuku wrote:

All of you are responsible for feeding this troll. You were ALL warned
this was a troll. From the first time he posted here the group was
warned about this troll.

But no. You had to feed it. You had to defend it. You had to help
turn threads into inane "movie" discussions with or without the mad man
himself. You had to attack the people warning you this was a troll.
Even people like Florian and matz participated in the feeding of Ilias.

So please Trans and others, don't act surprised or stupid now.

It's a *Good Thing* (TM) to be open minded as long as it's possible.
Even if it hurds sometimes. It makes the world face look more appealing.

:slight_smile:

benny

17

Has Ilias gone?
Perhaps Ruby's garbage collection process removed him...

···

On 4/23/05, Lyndon Samson <lyndon.samson@gmail.com> wrote:

On 4/24/05, Seppuku <fscker2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
> All of you are responsible for feeding this troll. You were ALL warned
> this was a troll. From the first time he posted here the group was
> warned about this troll.
>
> But no. You had to feed it. You had to defend it. You had to help
> turn threads into inane "movie" discussions with or without the mad man
> himself. You had to attack the people warning you this was a troll.
> Even people like Florian and matz participated in the feeding of Ilias.
>
> So please Trans and others, don't act surprised or stupid now.

Forgive us if we dont just assume your omniscience and take anything
you say to be the biblical truth, some of us prefer to give people a
chance first before judging them.

Gawd, the mental image of the smug look of satisfaction on your face
as you typed the above ruins my good mood completly.

Yes you were right, a class act wouldn't rub our faces in it, it was
bad enough anyway.

>
>

--
Into RFID? www.rfidnewsupdate.com Simple, fast, news.

--

All the best
Glenn
Aylesbury, UK

18

Seppuku wrote:
> All of you are responsible for feeding this troll. You were ALL
> warned this was a troll. From the first time he posted here the
> group was warned about this troll.
>
> But no. You had to feed it. You had to defend it. You had to help
> turn threads into inane "movie" discussions with or without the mad
> man himself. You had to attack the people warning you this was a
> troll. Even people like Florian and matz participated in the feeding
> of Ilias.
>
> So please Trans and others, don't act surprised or stupid now.

Ruby is fun. :slight_smile:

Yep, and these little 'incidents' dont happen all that often and most
of us will be better prepared with the dont-feed-the-troll tee-shirts
next time :slight_smile:

···

On 4/24/05, Jon A. Lambert <jlsysinc@alltel.net> wrote:

--
Into RFID? www.rfidnewsupdate.com Simple, fast, news.

19

Jon A. Lambert wrote:

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

Forging an identity is illegal - even within usenet.

I'm afraid that yet once again you are wrong. In the landmark 'Nudds
v. Nudds' case, the usenet supreme high council ruled in favor of Nudds
saying in effect that "nudds is nudds and who are we to say nudds ain't
nudds". This was subsequently confirmed later in 'Austin v. Austin'.

Besides Ilias Lazaridis is such a common name. I thought you were my
dentist at first. He's funny too, and often posts when he's hopped up
on nitrous oxide.

weak puppets - unable to admit failure.

*bleat* *bleat*

"When I grow up I want to be a real boy." - Pinnochio

--
J Lambert

you forgot something:

"Ruby is fun"

-

I've never met before this combination of intellect and simulated stupidity.

A new species.

But: your stupidity is simulated - and thus it's not attractive enouth.

"Ruby is fun" - so have your fun.

-

Maybe one day Ruby becomes Efficient, Straightforward and Constistend.

And most important: _really_ fully OO based.

Then I will possibly use it.

Matz, any chance ruby could be refactored to be a
functional language in Rite? :slight_smile:

Now, lovely species "simulated stupidity", it's _really_ time.

Closing Thread.

So be it!

*stamp*

--
http://lazaridis.com

E

···

Le 24/4/2005, "Ilias Lazaridis" <ilias@lazaridis.com> a écrit:

--
template<typename duck>
void quack(duck& d) { d.quack(); }

20

You know, if you don't like a thread, you can just ignore it.

Douglas

···

On 4/24/05, Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com> wrote:

Now, lovely species "simulated stupidity", it's _really_ time.

Closing Thread.