Chad Perrin

ruby-talk
1

*Hasn't anybody in the management of this forum the guts to either quiet or dispatch Chad Perrin before he manages to do more damage than he already has. He cannot be reasoned with, he sees all who disagree with him as the enemy, and he attacks constantly. However much he may contribute to Ruby, he will contribute to it's demise if he continues without moderation. He appears to be quite expert in Ruby, but if he attacks every other method of working as if it were the enemy, he cannot benefit the cause in either the short or the long run. In any case, he has certainly caused me to lose my taste for further adventures in Ruby. That is no great loss, but others might be. Please unsubscribe me from this list.

Everett L.(Rett) Williams II

···

*

2

*Hasn't anybody in the management of this forum the guts to either quiet or
dispatch Chad Perrin before he manages to do more damage than he already
has.

This is not how openness works. I also read almost every post to this
mailing list/forum, and I have not recently seen anything from Chad that is
damaging. I don't know what you have in mind here; perhaps you're referring
to the heated discussion about Excel as a programming language which
derailed because of meta-arguments over semantics?

He cannot be reasoned with, he sees all who disagree with him as the enemy,
and he attacks constantly.

This is not constructive; you're attacking someone personally and making
claims about them as an individual.

However much he may contribute to Ruby, he will contribute to it's demise
if he continues without moderation. He appears to be quite expert in Ruby,
but if he attacks every other method of working as if it were the enemy, he
cannot benefit the cause in either the short or the long run. In any case,
he has certainly caused me to lose my taste for further adventures in Ruby.
That is no great loss, but others might be.

I don't think starting a whole new thread just to attack an individual -- in
public, no less -- is a worthwhile contribution to this mailing list/forum,
regardless of what you think about Chad's views. Perhaps it would be better
to directly talk with the people in charge of ruby-talk.

Please unsubscribe me from this list.

You may do so without direct assistance from the people who administer this
mailing list:

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···

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 10:24 PM, Everett L Williams II <rett@classicnet.net > wrote:

3

Obvious troll.

Also, past history of trolling
E.g. http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2010-07/msg00759.html

Evidence overwhelming.
Bugger off.

4

Are you serious?

For the record, Everett has started harrassing me in private email after
I ended my involvement in the online discussion. Ignore this troll.

···

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 06:24:03AM +0900, Everett L Williams II wrote:

*Hasn't anybody in the management of this forum the guts to either quiet
or dispatch Chad Perrin before he manages to do more damage than he
already has. He cannot be reasoned with, he sees all who disagree with
him as the enemy, and he attacks constantly. However much he may
contribute to Ruby, he will contribute to it's demise if he continues
without moderation. He appears to be quite expert in Ruby, but if he
attacks every other method of working as if it were the enemy, he cannot
benefit the cause in either the short or the long run. In any case, he
has certainly caused me to lose my taste for further adventures in Ruby.
That is no great loss, but others might be. Please unsubscribe me from
this list.

--
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]

5

*Hasn't anybody in the management of this forum the guts to either quiet or dispatch Chad Perrin before he manages to do more damage than he already has.

While I find Chad to be a complete ass on many occasions, including (especially?) on the Functional programming thread, I don't see how it would even be feasible or reasonable to do anything. This "forum" as you call it is both a mailing list, a usenet group, and at least one web forum.

The "damage" that Chad causes is irritating at best. The rest is in your head.

He cannot be reasoned with, he sees all who disagree with him as the enemy, and he attacks constantly.

I completely agree. And?

However much he may contribute to Ruby, he will contribute to it's demise if he continues without moderation.

The ironic part is I know of absolutely no public contributions (gems, etc) to ruby coming from chad other than his participation on this mailing list.

Chad cannot contribute to Ruby's "demise"... at this point, you sound like a drama queen. Or maybe a teenage emo girl. Those might be equivalent.

He appears to be quite expert in Ruby, but if he attacks every other method of working as if it were the enemy, he cannot benefit the cause in either the short or the long run. In any case, he has certainly caused me to lose my taste for further adventures in Ruby. That is no great loss, but others might be.

While that is certainly your choice... I'd suggest you man up and learn to ignore people you don't like. Chad != Ruby. The world (and the internet) is a harsh mistress and you need a thicker skin if you're to get anything done.

Please unsubscribe me from this list.

You can unsubscribe yourself.

···

On Apr 14, 2011, at 14:24 , Everett L Williams II wrote:

6

*Hasn't anybody in the management of this forum the guts to either quiet or
dispatch Chad Perrin before he manages to do more damage than he already
has.

There is no moderation, hence nobody you can ask to suppress someone else.

He cannot be reasoned with, he sees all who disagree with him as the
enemy, and he attacks constantly. However much he may contribute to Ruby, he
will contribute to it's demise if he continues without moderation. He
appears to be quite expert in Ruby, but if he attacks every other method of
working as if it were the enemy, he cannot benefit the cause in either the
short or the long run.

I find that vastly exaggerated. Also, what you present here qualifies
as a personal attack and apparently you see him as some form of enemy
as well. Ironically based on your own ruling you would be banned as
well. :slight_smile:

In any case, he has certainly caused me to lose my
taste for further adventures in Ruby. That is no great loss, but others
might be.

Frankly, I don't understand how he can turn you away from Ruby. If
you have identified an individual as writing things that you don't
like to read you can easily ignore him - for example by _not_ reading
his messages. Nobody forces you to read everything posted here.

Please unsubscribe me from this list.

You have gotten onto this list, you should be able to find out how to get off.

Cheers

robert

···

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Everett L Williams II <rett@classicnet.net> wrote:

--
remember.guy do |as, often| as.you_can - without end
http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/

7

I just want to know how the usenet version of this thread has lasted
over 3 years, totaling 265 messages and about 120 subject hijackings. Is
there a script somewhere which keeps pushing old references?

BTW Everett plays the classic attention-starved adolescent here --
dramatically announcing his departure and then not departing.

···

--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

8

That was an interesting read. There were exactly two sentences in that
wall of text that appeared at all relevant to the comments to which it
was a response:

    Your very attitude towards Logo betrays your basic problem. Logo has
    matured into a capable and useful language, not at all limited to
    little kids, though still useful as a starting point for those kids.

For the record, I agree: Logo, at least in the UCBLogo implementation, is
a "serious" programming language. Its limitations as a language suitable
to "real world" use are entirely a result of the fact that Logo was a
victim of its own success; it did so well in the '80s as an educational
language for young children that everybody assumed that was all it could
do, ignoring its robust capabilities. It is, in fact, in many ways the
LISP originally envisioned by McCarthy (which is, in fact, in many ways
less interesting than what Common Lisp and Scheme have become -- but is
still an underrated language).

The rest of what ELW said was . . . well. I'll keep my thoughts to
myself on that, I guess. No need to perpetuate the problem. I just felt
like commenting on the Logo mention; it's a good language, even if
someone like ELW likes it too.

···

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 08:14:20AM +0900, Johnny Morrice wrote:

Also, past history of trolling
E.g. Re: Lua, Robotics, and a 13 year old...

--
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]

9

>
> However much he may contribute to Ruby, he will contribute to it's
> demise if he continues without moderation.

The ironic part is I know of absolutely no public contributions (gems,
etc) to ruby coming from chad other than his participation on this
mailing list.

The feeling is mutual. As for the rest of what you said about me -- I'll
follow Mom's advice, and say nothing, except this:

> He appears to be quite expert in Ruby, but if he attacks every other
> method of working as if it were the enemy, he cannot benefit the
> cause in either the short or the long run. In any case, he has
> certainly caused me to lose my taste for further adventures in Ruby.
> That is no great loss, but others might be.

While that is certainly your choice... I'd suggest you man up and learn
to ignore people you don't like. Chad != Ruby. The world (and the
internet) is a harsh mistress and you need a thicker skin if you're to
get anything done.

I agree. I am not Ruby. If you don't like me, ignore me.

···

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:25:31AM +0900, Ryan Davis wrote:

On Apr 14, 2011, at 14:24 , Everett L Williams II wrote:

--
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]

10

*Ryan,*

Ryan Davis wrote:

*Hasn't anybody in the management of this forum the guts to either quiet or dispatch Chad Perrin before he manages to do more damage than he already has.
     

While I find Chad to be a complete ass on many occasions, including (especially?) on the Functional programming thread, I don't see how it would even be feasible or reasonable to do anything. This "forum" as you call it is both a mailing list, a usenet group, and at least one web forum.

The "damage" that Chad causes is irritating at best. The rest is in your head.
   

And in the head of every noob who stumbles into his arrogant and ill tempered rants.

He cannot be reasoned with, he sees all who disagree with him as the enemy, and he attacks constantly.
     

I completely agree. And?

However much he may contribute to Ruby, he will contribute to it's demise if he continues without moderation.
     

The ironic part is I know of absolutely no public contributions (gems, etc) to ruby coming from chad other than his participation on this mailing list.

Chad cannot contribute to Ruby's "demise"... at this point, you sound like a drama queen. Or maybe a teenage emo girl. Those might be equivalent.
   

Cute, but I have been on the internet since it was ARPANET. My company used it to transfer an IBM compatible Pascal for the Australian AED for use on a project. As in your case, he merely irritates me, but his attacks on noobs ideas or anything that is not spelled as Ruby will chase of those newcomers before they can become active, at least in some cases. And, he accuses anyone who argues with him of being a troll. That is not something that is good for the language. If there is no moderation hereabouts that can at least admonish, then this is less and less likely to be a useful place. If that is being a drama queen or emo as you so sweetly put it, then I am guilty as accused. Since I am leaving, you and those like you will have to judge how long you can put up with such nonsense.

I have no idea of Chad's contributions or lack thereof. I have just noted that he often replies to noobs.

He appears to be quite expert in Ruby, but if he attacks every other method of working as if it were the enemy, he cannot benefit the cause in either the short or the long run. In any case, he has certainly caused me to lose my taste for further adventures in Ruby. That is no great loss, but others might be.
     

While that is certainly your choice... I'd suggest you man up and learn to ignore people you don't like. Chad != Ruby. The world (and the internet) is a harsh mistress and you need a thicker skin if you're to get anything done.
   

This isn't a testosterone joust. It is supposed to be a place where ideas are discussed and help is asked and offered. My suggestion to you is not to offer foolish advice that you would not offer in person.
It is certainly difficult to have any respect for an individual who has so little respect for teachers, when it is a skill that, by his own admission, he lacks. And, by the way, I can play just as rough as the next person, but I seldom find it necessary or desirable. Having examined Ruby fairly closely, I leave because I don't find it worth the effort, especially when that involves putting up with nonsense like Chad. I attempted to take the discussion offline, but now he complains that is harassment. Since there is no venue for complaint, I have posted in the forum, and I am leaving, so you may dissect the corpse as you will.

Everett L.(Rett) Williams II

···

On Apr 14, 2011, at 14:24 , Everett L Williams II wrote:

Please unsubscribe me from this list.
     

You can unsubscribe yourself.

11

Indeed. The original designers of Logo, Danny Bobrow and Wally Feurzeig, explicitly described Logo as `baby Lisp'. I was involved in that effort a bit, and ended up producing an implementation of Logo, and teaching teachers how to use it for teaching purposes. That latter part soured me quite a lot on teaching computer science in public schools. Most of the teachers couldn't see any other purpose to Logo than manipulating the turtle, and they ended up seeing Logo as a kind of horrible drawing program. In fact, I stopped getting interest from teachers on this subject at almost exactly the time the original Mac and MacPaint were released. The wonderful stuff in Brian Harvey's _Computer Science Logo Style_ was totally beyond these teachers. (By the way, if you look on his website, you can download all three volumes of this series. Even for those who have no interest in Logo, these are fascinating books. http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bh\).

Ruby and Logo share a certain flavor, including a syntax that is just a little bit hazy :). I kind of wish I were still teaching teachers, it would be fun to teach them Ruby.

(My apologies to those who are looking for some Ruby talk in this message, there really isn't any.)

-- vincent

···

On 2011-04-14, at 17:10, Chad Perrin wrote:

For the record, I agree: Logo, at least in the UCBLogo implementation, is
a "serious" programming language. Its limitations as a language suitable
to "real world" use are entirely a result of the fact that Logo was a
victim of its own success; it did so well in the '80s as an educational
language for young children that everybody assumed that was all it could
do, ignoring its robust capabilities. It is, in fact, in many ways the
LISP originally envisioned by McCarthy (which is, in fact, in many ways
less interesting than what Common Lisp and Scheme have become -- but is
still an underrated language).

12

Unsubscribe here: Mailing Lists

···

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Everett L Williams II <rett@classicnet.net > wrote:

*Ryan,*

Ryan Davis wrote:

On Apr 14, 2011, at 14:24 , Everett L Williams II wrote:

*Hasn't anybody in the management of this forum the guts to either quiet
or dispatch Chad Perrin before he manages to do more damage than he already
has.

While I find Chad to be a complete ass on many occasions, including
(especially?) on the Functional programming thread, I don't see how it would
even be feasible or reasonable to do anything. This "forum" as you call it
is both a mailing list, a usenet group, and at least one web forum.

The "damage" that Chad causes is irritating at best. The rest is in your
head.

And in the head of every noob who stumbles into his arrogant and ill
tempered rants.

He cannot be reasoned with, he sees all who disagree with him as the

enemy, and he attacks constantly.

I completely agree. And?

However much he may contribute to Ruby, he will contribute to it's demise
if he continues without moderation.

The ironic part is I know of absolutely no public contributions (gems,
etc) to ruby coming from chad other than his participation on this mailing
list.

Chad cannot contribute to Ruby's "demise"... at this point, you sound like
a drama queen. Or maybe a teenage emo girl. Those might be equivalent.

Cute, but I have been on the internet since it was ARPANET. My company used
it to transfer an IBM compatible Pascal for the Australian AED for use on a
project. As in your case, he merely irritates me, but his attacks on noobs
ideas or anything that is not spelled as Ruby will chase of those newcomers
before they can become active, at least in some cases. And, he accuses
anyone who argues with him of being a troll. That is not something that is
good for the language. If there is no moderation hereabouts that can at
least admonish, then this is less and less likely to be a useful place. If
that is being a drama queen or emo as you so sweetly put it, then I am
guilty as accused. Since I am leaving, you and those like you will have to
judge how long you can put up with such nonsense.

I have no idea of Chad's contributions or lack thereof. I have just noted
that he often replies to noobs.

He appears to be quite expert in Ruby, but if he attacks every other

method of working as if it were the enemy, he cannot benefit the cause in
either the short or the long run. In any case, he has certainly caused me to
lose my taste for further adventures in Ruby. That is no great loss, but
others might be.

While that is certainly your choice... I'd suggest you man up and learn to
ignore people you don't like. Chad != Ruby. The world (and the internet) is
a harsh mistress and you need a thicker skin if you're to get anything done.

This isn't a testosterone joust. It is supposed to be a place where ideas
are discussed and help is asked and offered. My suggestion to you is not to
offer foolish advice that you would not offer in person.
It is certainly difficult to have any respect for an individual who has so
little respect for teachers, when it is a skill that, by his own admission,
he lacks. And, by the way, I can play just as rough as the next person, but
I seldom find it necessary or desirable. Having examined Ruby fairly
closely, I leave because I don't find it worth the effort, especially when
that involves putting up with nonsense like Chad. I attempted to take the
discussion offline, but now he complains that is harassment. Since there is
no venue for complaint, I have posted in the forum, and I am leaving, so you
may dissect the corpse as you will.

Everett L.(Rett) Williams II

Please unsubscribe me from this list.

You can unsubscribe yourself.

13

I have a better suggestion, bring popcorn and watch the show...

-- Matt
It's not what I know that counts.
It's what I can remember in time to use.

···

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011, Chad Perrin wrote:

I agree. I am not Ruby. If you don't like me, ignore me.

14

Logo was the first "programming" I ever did. We didn't have an official
curriculum that I know of, but me and another kid had to make a story with
it, so we had to give it commands to draw each scene. Ours was Sonic the
Hedgehog :stuck_out_tongue: and I really enjoyed it, and think that is one of the reasons
that I stayed so interested in programming for all these years. (Though I
did have a qbasic course in HS, which I also loved).

By surprising coincidence, I was playing with it today, since Heroku had a
segment in their last newsletter about supporting it (
http://blog.heroku.com/archives/2011/4/1/announcing_heroku_for_logo\)

···

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Vincent Manis <vmanis@telus.net> wrote:

On 2011-04-14, at 17:10, Chad Perrin wrote:
> For the record, I agree: Logo, at least in the UCBLogo implementation, is
> a "serious" programming language. Its limitations as a language suitable
> to "real world" use are entirely a result of the fact that Logo was a
> victim of its own success; it did so well in the '80s as an educational
> language for young children that everybody assumed that was all it could
> do, ignoring its robust capabilities. It is, in fact, in many ways the
> LISP originally envisioned by McCarthy (which is, in fact, in many ways
> less interesting than what Common Lisp and Scheme have become -- but is
> still an underrated language).

Indeed. The original designers of Logo, Danny Bobrow and Wally Feurzeig,
explicitly described Logo as `baby Lisp'. I was involved in that effort a
bit, and ended up producing an implementation of Logo, and teaching teachers
how to use it for teaching purposes. That latter part soured me quite a lot
on teaching computer science in public schools. Most of the teachers
couldn't see any other purpose to Logo than manipulating the turtle, and
they ended up seeing Logo as a kind of horrible drawing program. In fact, I
stopped getting interest from teachers on this subject at almost exactly the
time the original Mac and MacPaint were released. The wonderful stuff in
Brian Harvey's _Computer Science Logo Style_ was totally beyond these
teachers. (By the way, if you look on his website, you can download all
three volumes of this series. Even for those who have no interest in Logo,
these are fascinating books. http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bh\).

Ruby and Logo share a certain flavor, including a syntax that is just a
little bit hazy :). I kind of wish I were still teaching teachers, it would
be fun to teach them Ruby.

(My apologies to those who are looking for some Ruby talk in this message,
there really isn't any.)

-- vincent

15

>
> For the record, I agree: Logo, at least in the UCBLogo
> implementation, is a "serious" programming language. Its limitations
> as a language suitable to "real world" use are entirely a result of
> the fact that Logo was a victim of its own success; it did so well in
> the '80s as an educational language for young children that everybody
> assumed that was all it could do, ignoring its robust capabilities.
> It is, in fact, in many ways the LISP originally envisioned by
> McCarthy (which is, in fact, in many ways less interesting than what
> Common Lisp and Scheme have become -- but is still an underrated
> language).

Indeed. The original designers of Logo, Danny Bobrow and Wally
Feurzeig, explicitly described Logo as `baby Lisp'. I was involved in
that effort a bit, and ended up producing an implementation of Logo,
and teaching teachers how to use it for teaching purposes. That latter
part soured me quite a lot on teaching computer science in public
schools. Most of the teachers couldn't see any other purpose to Logo
than manipulating the turtle, and they ended up seeing Logo as a kind
of horrible drawing program. In fact, I stopped getting interest from
teachers on this subject at almost exactly the time the original Mac
and MacPaint were released.

The sad fact is that most public school teachers (including public
universities) have little interest in learning and less imagination.

I do not speak of private school teachers because I haven't attended a
public school. The main effect of the vast majority of classes I have
attended in schools of various types has been to undermine my love for
learning, though. I finally figured out that to really learn something
while in school, one must do it on one's own time.

By the way, Logo was my second programming language -- and it rescued me
from the horrors of my first language, BASIC.

The wonderful stuff in Brian Harvey's _Computer Science Logo Style_ was
totally beyond these teachers. (By the way, if you look on his website,
you can download all three volumes of this series. Even for those who
have no interest in Logo, these are fascinating books.
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bh\).

I've worked my way through bits of Harvey's book, off and on, over the
years. It's an interesting approach. I definitely recommend it as a
Logo for Grown-Ups series of books.

Ruby and Logo share a certain flavor, including a syntax that is just a
little bit hazy :). I kind of wish I were still teaching teachers, it
would be fun to teach them Ruby.

I'd love to do that, too, but I frankly have no idea how I'd put myself
in such a position.

···

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 09:35:40AM +0900, Vincent Manis wrote:

On 2011-04-14, at 17:10, Chad Perrin wrote:

--
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]

16

^
                               and beer

···

On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 03:36:42AM +0900, Matt Lawrence wrote:

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011, Chad Perrin wrote:

> I agree. I am not Ruby. If you don't like me, ignore me.

I have a better suggestion, bring popcorn and watch the show...