An introduction, in about 50 lines of Ruby

ruby-talk
21

Trans wrote:

Trans wrote:

So I'll go out on a limb here, I respectfully request that an official
"ruby-pro" (or some such name) be created.

The Thoughtful Ruby mailing list has roughly zero traffic, so I'm
skeptical a new list would be helpful.

You are right. It can only work with official backing from matz and
community leaders.

Backing from matz would be nice but hardly essential. "Community leaders" is an illusion; if you think there's a need for such a list, go lead.

Maybe people heard about Rails, tried it for a while, and decided either
to just hang on the rails lists, or switch (back) to Java or PHP or
something.

Or, more likely, people have formed multiple Ruby communities, and each
has found their own way (blogs, twitter, other lists, irc) to keep in
touch.

That's true. But the mailing lists are central hubs. It's important
that all these sub-communities remain in touch too.

You can lead a horse to water, etc.

Ruby has gone tribal.

···

On Aug 8, 3:29 pm, James Britt <james.br...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
James Britt

www.happycamperstudios.com - Wicked Cool Coding
www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff

22

OCaml likewise.

martin

···

On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 7:21 AM, James Gray <james@grayproductions.net> wrote:

On Aug 9, 2008, at 9:01 AM, Trans wrote:

I thought about that. My concern with creating a beginners list is
that beginners will be more likely to gravitate toward the most well
known list, ie.

Perl has a beginners list. I was on it for years and really enjoyed it.
It's very successful.

23

> I thought about that. My concern with creating a beginners list is
> that beginners will be more likely to gravitate toward the most well
> known list, ie. ruby-talk. I could possibly see a ruby-help list, but
> that would take a much more concerted effort by the community to rev-
> up and maintain, and I'm not sure it conveys the type of sectioning
> that's really needed to improve list participation.

> Yes, having an advanced list is sort of elitist, that's the point. But
> that doesn't make it defacto bad. A better name might help that
> perception however, say ruby-tech.

Well ... first of all, anybody is free to go to Google Groups and create
and market any kind of list they want to, within certain terms of
service, of course. So if, for example, someone feels that there needs
to be a "ruby-beginners" or a "ruby-help" or a "ruby-professional", they
can just go ahead and start it up and invite participants.

It is not possible to create a special general list. Official backing
is therefore absolutely necessary for it to work. Otherwise forget it.

Second, *this* list is essentially mirrored between the "ruby-talk"
mailing list, the Usenet comp.lang.ruby newsgroup and a Google Group. If
you split one, you more or less have to split all three of them. It
doesn't seem to me to be worth the effort when anyone can do what I
described above.

There is also the ruby-forum mirror. I manage the ruby-talk Google
Group, btw. Splitting just means adding another list, it's not a big
deal.

Also, I heard that Usenet was going down. I suspect that is a relative
thing. But is it true? Will it effect comp.lang.ruby?

So ... those of you who feel strongly about establishing new lists, go
ahead and establish them, post the URLs here, and see who joins. :slight_smile: I
can pretty much guarantee that I won't join one, since I'm on half a
dozen or so specialized Ruby lists, like ruby-core, rubinius-dev,
ruby-benchmark-suite and the Seattle and Portland Ruby brigade lists.
Chances of me missing an opportunity to learn or teach in this area are
rather small, I think. :wink:

I'm glad to see you are still on ruby-talk then. With all that
activity I would fear ruby-talk might fall off your list. That's
basically my point about this --I think quite a few have. It would be
nice if their were a lower volume list that could centrally connect
them.

T.

···

On Aug 9, 11:20 am, "M. Edward (Ed) Borasky" <zn...@cesmail.net> wrote:

On Sat, 2008-08-09 at 23:01 +0900, Trans wrote:

24

Lol. Well then, bring in the British! :wink:

T.

···

On Aug 10, 1:49 am, James Britt <james.br...@gmail.com> wrote:

You can lead a horse to water, etc.

Ruby has gone tribal.

25

That's sorely wrong. For the Ruby community, knowing that matz stands
behind something makes a HUGE difference. Being able to add the list
to the ruby-lang.org website is essential --and is controlled by matz
and friends.

That's not to say an unofficial list is not be possible, it just would
be 100x harder to make effective --and for that, I doubt anyone really
has the time and energy for; and it certainly could not be me. I'm not
well liked by the community. In fact, the fact that *I* suggested it
pretty much guarantees that it will never happen. Ha ha! My devious
plan takes effect, Ruby will never have a beginner/expert list! ...
(just kidding)

T.

···

On Aug 10, 1:49 am, James Britt <james.br...@gmail.com> wrote:

Backing from matz would be nice but hardly essential. "Community
leaders" is an illusion; if you think there's a need for such a list, go
lead.

26

We don't do that sort of thing anymore :wink:

Ellie

Eleanor McHugh
Games With Brains
http://slides.games-with-brains.net

···

On 10 Aug 2008, at 11:25, Trans wrote:

On Aug 10, 1:49 am, James Britt <james.br...@gmail.com> wrote:

You can lead a horse to water, etc.

Ruby has gone tribal.

Lol. Well then, bring in the British! :wink:

----
raise ArgumentError unless @reality.responds_to? :reason

27

This post is not address to anyone in particular but I wish to get answers
from everyone, specially the non-beginners!

I normally don't get involve on this type of "theological" discussions,
specially since I am no more than a mere and simple beginner, and I feel
that I can't add anything to the big brainier discussion. That been said, I
have a problem with a beginner list:

   1. Would a beginner question receives a beginner's answer?
   2. How are we going to understand/learn new techniques and creativity
   which only the non-beginner posses? Please don't be arrogant and tell me to
   learn it like you did! Although I know that this not your problem, some
   people, like I, at times needs to see examples.
   3. When would a beginner like I be permitted into the big boys
   (non-beginner) club?
   4. What's wrong with being a beginner?

In the past I have learn interesting techniques from you, big boys,
non-beginners and I wish I could continue to count on that. I have received
answers from some of the Ruby book authors and from some of the Ruby
packages developers, also from just fun loving Ruby hackers, and YES from
beginners to.

If a person considers that a question is too simple and s(he) does not wants
to waste time on it, skip it. If your arrogance does not let you see your
feet, well good for you.
But please let us beginners feel comfortable and let Ruby grow with our
stupid questions!

Thanks

Victor

···

On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 6:47 AM, Trans <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:

On Aug 10, 1:49 am, James Britt <james.br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Backing from matz would be nice but hardly essential. "Community
> leaders" is an illusion; if you think there's a need for such a list, go
> lead.

That's sorely wrong. For the Ruby community, knowing that matz stands
behind something makes a HUGE difference. Being able to add the list
to the ruby-lang.org website is essential --and is controlled by matz
and friends.

That's not to say an unofficial list is not be possible, it just would
be 100x harder to make effective --and for that, I doubt anyone really
has the time and energy for; and it certainly could not be me. I'm not
well liked by the community. In fact, the fact that *I* suggested it
pretty much guarantees that it will never happen. Ha ha! My devious
plan takes effect, Ruby will never have a beginner/expert list! ...
(just kidding)

T.

28

What would be even nicer is if queries raised on the list got to be answered
rather than so much energy going on chewing the fat about new lists!!

For example I raised a query on the subject of:
gem native extension installer failure on winxp pro 64 system
detailing aproblem on updating a gem native extension - there have so far been
no replies and I cannot update the system. Now I am not suggesting I am
entitled to a reply but it is pretty galling to see this load of stuff flying
past my screen when there are basic queries from people that do not get any
replies.

My 2 pennorth

David

···

On Saturday 09 August 2008 16:48:03 Trans wrote:

On Aug 9, 11:20 am, "M. Edward (Ed) Borasky" <zn...@cesmail.net> > > wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-08-09 at 23:01 +0900, Trans wrote:
> > I thought about that. My concern with creating a beginners list is
> > that beginners will be more likely to gravitate toward the most well
> > known list, ie. ruby-talk. I could possibly see a ruby-help list, but
> > that would take a much more concerted effort by the community to rev-
> > up and maintain, and I'm not sure it conveys the type of sectioning
> > that's really needed to improve list participation.
> >
> > Yes, having an advanced list is sort of elitist, that's the point. But
> > that doesn't make it defacto bad. A better name might help that
> > perception however, say ruby-tech.
>
> Well ... first of all, anybody is free to go to Google Groups and create
> and market any kind of list they want to, within certain terms of
> service, of course. So if, for example, someone feels that there needs
> to be a "ruby-beginners" or a "ruby-help" or a "ruby-professional", they
> can just go ahead and start it up and invite participants.

It is not possible to create a special general list. Official backing
is therefore absolutely necessary for it to work. Otherwise forget it.

> Second, *this* list is essentially mirrored between the "ruby-talk"
> mailing list, the Usenet comp.lang.ruby newsgroup and a Google Group. If
> you split one, you more or less have to split all three of them. It
> doesn't seem to me to be worth the effort when anyone can do what I
> described above.

There is also the ruby-forum mirror. I manage the ruby-talk Google
Group, btw. Splitting just means adding another list, it's not a big
deal.

Also, I heard that Usenet was going down. I suspect that is a relative
thing. But is it true? Will it effect comp.lang.ruby?

> So ... those of you who feel strongly about establishing new lists, go
> ahead and establish them, post the URLs here, and see who joins. :slight_smile: I
> can pretty much guarantee that I won't join one, since I'm on half a
> dozen or so specialized Ruby lists, like ruby-core, rubinius-dev,
> ruby-benchmark-suite and the Seattle and Portland Ruby brigade lists.
> Chances of me missing an opportunity to learn or teach in this area are
> rather small, I think. :wink:

I'm glad to see you are still on ruby-talk then. With all that
activity I would fear ruby-talk might fall off your list. That's
basically my point about this --I think quite a few have. It would be
nice if their were a lower volume list that could centrally connect
them.

T.

29

I strongly disagree. I think Matz has plenty to worry about without adding in a new list experiment we may want to try.

I agree with the other James, if you want to try it, try it.

James Edward Gray II

···

On Aug 10, 2008, at 5:47 AM, Trans wrote:

On Aug 10, 1:49 am, James Britt <james.br...@gmail.com> wrote:

Backing from matz would be nice but hardly essential. "Community
leaders" is an illusion; if you think there's a need for such a list, go
lead.

That's sorely wrong. For the Ruby community, knowing that matz stands
behind something makes a HUGE difference.

30

Trans wrote:

Backing from matz would be nice but hardly essential. "Community
leaders" is an illusion; if you think there's a need for such a list, go
lead.

That's sorely wrong. For the Ruby community, knowing that matz stands
behind something makes a HUGE difference. Being able to add the list
to the ruby-lang.org website is essential --and is controlled by matz
and friends.

Well, FWIW, *I* can edit ruby-lang.org (as can quite a few others), but point taken. I would not add a list to that site until it's demonstrated some traction, and that's a chicken/egg problem.

But *many* things happen in the Ruby universe (lists, groups, conferences, publications) that, as best I can tell, do not go through any Approved By Matz process. Ruby would be dead were it not for people just going off and doing stuff.

That's not to say an unofficial list is not be possible, it just would
be 100x harder to make effective --and for that, I doubt anyone really
has the time and energy for; and it certainly could not be me. I'm not
well liked by the community. In fact, the fact that *I* suggested it
pretty much guarantees that it will never happen. Ha ha! My devious
plan takes effect, Ruby will never have a beginner/expert list! ...
(just kidding)

You may be surprised. At the 2nd RubyConf there was some discussion on some topic or another (I can't recall) that involved the prospect of first polling community needs or support. And the general reaction was, that's completely wrong: code talks, bullshit walks. Basically, if you wait to get support or permission or approval you'll die of old age. Just do what you think needs doing, and see who picks up on it.

Not *everyone* hates you (I'm pretty sure) and the idea of a beginners list comes up so regularly that it may get take off no matter who runs it.

Even you. :slight_smile:

···

On Aug 10, 1:49 am, James Britt <james.br...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
James Britt

www.happycamperstudios.com - Wicked Cool Coding
www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff

31

   1. Would a beginner question receives a beginner's answer?
   2. How are we going to understand/learn new techniques and creativity
   which only the non-beginner posses? Please don't be arrogant and tell me

to

   learn it like you did! Although I know that this not your problem, some
   people, like I, at times needs to see examples.
   3. When would a beginner like I be permitted into the big boys
   (non-beginner) club?
   4. What's wrong with being a beginner?

Without answering your specific questions, I (as a newbie, although hopefully
I'm more than a newbie in some areas now), I would join both lists (the
newbie and the more advanced list). Read both. Hopefully some experts will
read the newbie list and provide expert answers there, but there is a lot of
room for beginners to answer questions that they've already learned the
answers to.

Ask your questions on whatever list you guess is most appropriate. If you
start by asking on the newbie list, and either don't get an answer or you
think it's missing something, re-ask it on the advanced list.

Randy Kramer

Aside: I belong (or have belonged) to newbie and advanced lists on several
subjects--the ones I can think of atm are Mandriva and AbiWord. I think it
works reasonably well. Traffic on the advanced lists is considerably less
"noisy" than that on the newbie lists, which is, iiuc, one of the goals.
OTOH, newbies still have a place to ask their questions, including some that
even they believe to be fairly simple.

···

On Sunday 10 August 2008 09:50 am, Victor Reyes wrote:

In the past I have learn interesting techniques from you, big boys,
non-beginners and I wish I could continue to count on that. I have received
answers from some of the Ruby book authors and from some of the Ruby
packages developers, also from just fun loving Ruby hackers, and YES from
beginners to.

If a person considers that a question is too simple and s(he) does not wants
to waste time on it, skip it. If your arrogance does not let you see your
feet, well good for you.
But please let us beginners feel comfortable and let Ruby grow with our
stupid questions!

Thanks

Victor

32

Backing from matz would be nice but hardly essential. "Community
leaders" is an illusion; if you think there's a need for such a list, go
lead.

That's sorely wrong. For the Ruby community, knowing that matz stands
behind something makes a HUGE difference. Being able to add the list
to the ruby-lang.org website is essential --and is controlled by matz
and friends.

That's not to say an unofficial list is not be possible, it just would
be 100x harder to make effective --and for that, I doubt anyone really
has the time and energy for; and it certainly could not be me. I'm not
well liked by the community. In fact, the fact that *I* suggested it
pretty much guarantees that it will never happen. Ha ha! My devious
plan takes effect, Ruby will never have a beginner/expert list! ...
(just kidding)

T.

This post is not address to anyone in particular but I wish to get answers
from everyone, specially the non-beginners!

I normally don't get involve on this type of "theological" discussions,
specially since I am no more than a mere and simple beginner, and I feel
that I can't add anything to the big brainier discussion. That been said, I
have a problem with a beginner list:

  1. Would a beginner question receives a beginner's answer?

Having participated on the Perl Beginners list for years, I will answer from that perspective.

The answer is: we sure hope so! If beginners learn some point and then share that with others, the whole community wins. To me, this is one of the big signs of healthy community growth.

Of course, experts would also be available to answer questions as well. That's another needed element.

  2. How are we going to understand/learn new techniques and creativity
  which only the non-beginner posses? Please don't be arrogant and tell me to
  learn it like you did! Although I know that this not your problem, some
  people, like I, at times needs to see examples.

There are several members on the Perl Beginners list who are well known experts in the community. If we couldn't get any of our own experts to join in such an effort, it would be a sign that our community is quite broken, in my opinion. Many of us enjoy helping others and would gladly join and help answer questions.

  3. When would a beginner like I be permitted into the big boys
  (non-beginner) club?

Whenever you decide you are ready, even if that's on day one. As other's have suggested, tracking both may be a great idea.

  4. What's wrong with being a beginner?

In the past I have learn interesting techniques from you, big boys,
non-beginners and I wish I could continue to count on that. I have received
answers from some of the Ruby book authors and from some of the Ruby
packages developers, also from just fun loving Ruby hackers, and YES from
beginners to.

There's absolutely nothing at all wrong with being a beginner. If we removed all beginners from the community it would eventually die, so I think they are quite important.

The issue is that the Ruby community has exploded with growth lately. With that, the signal to noise ratio of these lists has shifted some. This has had some negative effects for everyone. First, many experts have retreated to other places after being overwhelmed. As you've already pointed out, that hurts the beginners ability to get good answers. Also, many beginners are probably a little intimidated by the new volume and sometimes less inviting tone. Giving them a more welcoming place to pose questions and receive help could be a big win, if more of them felt comfortable there.

If a person considers that a question is too simple and s(he) does not wants
to waste time on it, skip it. If your arrogance does not let you see your
feet, well good for you.
But please let us beginners feel comfortable and let Ruby grow with our
stupid questions!

You are and always will be welcome here. We're just discussing if there are other ways we can add to that. Please don't take offense.

James Edward Gray II

···

On Aug 10, 2008, at 8:50 AM, Victor Reyes wrote:

On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 6:47 AM, Trans <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:

On Aug 10, 1:49 am, James Britt <james.br...@gmail.com> wrote:

33

What's up with the circular logic? What have I been saying? There is
no point to trying! It won't work. So why do you keep telling me to
try it? How do I know it won't work? Not the least of reasons is
because I have tried it!

An official new list can't be official unless it is made official by
officials.

T.

···

On Aug 10, 11:24 am, James Gray <ja...@grayproductions.net> wrote:

I strongly disagree. I think Matz has plenty to worry about without
adding in a new list experiment we may want to try.

I agree with the other James, if you want to try it, try it.

34

I normally don't get involve on this type of "theological" discussions,
specially since I am no more than a mere and simple beginner, and I feel
that I can't add anything to the big brainier discussion. That been said, I
have a problem with a beginner list:

  1. Would a beginner question receives a beginner's answer?

Historically, beginner questions have received a fair mix of beginner
and playfully advanced answers.

  2. How are we going to understand/learn new techniques and creativity
  which only the non-beginner posses? Please don't be arrogant and tell me to
  learn it like you did! Although I know that this not your problem, some
  people, like I, at times needs to see examples.

See 1 - people have never shied away from providing 'advanced' and
creative answers to beginner questions

  3. When would a beginner like I be permitted into the big boys
  (non-beginner) club?

Whenever you like. I actually imagine people joining both lists. It's
just nice to have a list where the beginner questions are the signal
and not lost in the general chatter.

  4. What's wrong with being a beginner?

You killed our fathers. Prepare to die.

In the past I have learn interesting techniques from you, big boys,
non-beginners and I wish I could continue to count on that. I have received
answers from some of the Ruby book authors and from some of the Ruby
packages developers, also from just fun loving Ruby hackers, and YES from
beginners to.

If a person considers that a question is too simple and s(he) does not wants
to waste time on it, skip it. If your arrogance does not let you see your
feet, well good for you.
But please let us beginners feel comfortable and let Ruby grow with our
stupid questions!

I think you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick - the point of a
beginner's list is to provide a place where beginner's questions are
guaranteed not to get overlooked in the general chatter. There are
times when I'm busy and just mark-all-read on ruby-talk, but if I saw
a post in the beginner's list that had received no replies, I might
take the moment or two to see if I could answer that at least.

martin

···

On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 6:50 AM, Victor Reyes <victor.reyes@gmail.com> wrote:

35

Perhaps you are right. I not so sure I'm the guy for the job, but you
may be right that times have changed enough now that a "3rd party"
could get another list rolling. Hell, maybe both a help/beginner and
tech/expert list.

T.

···

On Aug 10, 2:40 pm, James Britt <james.br...@gmail.com> wrote:

Trans wrote:

> On Aug 10, 1:49 am, James Britt <james.br...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Backing from matz would be nice but hardly essential. "Community
>> leaders" is an illusion; if you think there's a need for such a list, go
>> lead.

> That's sorely wrong. For the Ruby community, knowing that matz stands
> behind something makes a HUGE difference. Being able to add the list
> to the ruby-lang.org website is essential --and is controlled by matz
> and friends.

Well, FWIW, *I* can edit ruby-lang.org (as can quite a few others), but
point taken. I would not add a list to that site until it's
demonstrated some traction, and that's a chicken/egg problem.

But *many* things happen in the Ruby universe (lists, groups,
conferences, publications) that, as best I can tell, do not go through
any Approved By Matz process. Ruby would be dead were it not for
people just going off and doing stuff.

> That's not to say an unofficial list is not be possible, it just would
> be 100x harder to make effective --and for that, I doubt anyone really
> has the time and energy for; and it certainly could not be me. I'm not
> well liked by the community. In fact, the fact that *I* suggested it
> pretty much guarantees that it will never happen. Ha ha! My devious
> plan takes effect, Ruby will never have a beginner/expert list! ...
> (just kidding)

You may be surprised. At the 2nd RubyConf there was some discussion on
some topic or another (I can't recall) that involved the prospect of
first polling community needs or support. And the general reaction was,
that's completely wrong: code talks, bullshit walks. Basically, if you
wait to get support or permission or approval you'll die of old age.
Just do what you think needs doing, and see who picks up on it.

Not *everyone* hates you (I'm pretty sure) and the idea of a beginners
list comes up so regularly that it may get take off no matter who runs it.

Even you. :slight_smile:

36

Trans wrote:

An official new list can't be official unless it is made official by
officials.

There are no officials.

Just people who do things.

···

--
James Britt

www.happycamperstudios.com - Wicked Cool Coding
www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff

37

Lists of Ruby 101, and then Ruby 201, 301, 401, and, of course, Ruby
501 for the core developers.

Just kidding. Maybe it would be even less intimidating if you have
three groups (beginner, advanced, and core), but just refrain from
using the words "beginner" and "advanced". Just a thought. Like the
"beginner" list would be called ruby-general. I'm not sure what word
to use for the "advanced" list; maybe just "advanced".

The database groups removed some noise by creating
comp.databases.theory. People still post there about MySQL
idiosyncrasies to the dismay of other posters, so I imagine you'll
still see simple Rails questions on a Ruby "advanced" group.

In any case, please try to avoid playing gestapo, Ruby Secret Society,
and what not :wink:

Todd

···

On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 10:44 AM, James Gray <james@grayproductions.net> wrote:

Having participated on the Perl Beginners list for years, I will answer from
that perspective.

The answer is: we sure hope so! If beginners learn some point and then
share that with others, the whole community wins. To me, this is one of the
big signs of healthy community growth.

38

It still seems no one has taken the point.. all this discussion about another
list seems to get lots of enthusiatic off topic discussion going about
another list when straight forward on topic requests for information go
unanswered by the community.

It seems there is more interest in debata than mutual support.

my two pennorth

David

···

On Sunday 10 August 2008 14:26:23 Trans wrote:

On Aug 10, 2:40 pm, James Britt <james.br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Trans wrote:
> > On Aug 10, 1:49 am, James Britt <james.br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Backing from matz would be nice but hardly essential. "Community
> >> leaders" is an illusion; if you think there's a need for such a list,
> >> go lead.
> >
> > That's sorely wrong. For the Ruby community, knowing that matz stands
> > behind something makes a HUGE difference. Being able to add the list
> > to the ruby-lang.org website is essential --and is controlled by matz
> > and friends.
>
> Well, FWIW, *I* can edit ruby-lang.org (as can quite a few others), but
> point taken. I would not add a list to that site until it's
> demonstrated some traction, and that's a chicken/egg problem.
>
> But *many* things happen in the Ruby universe (lists, groups,
> conferences, publications) that, as best I can tell, do not go through
> any Approved By Matz process. Ruby would be dead were it not for
> people just going off and doing stuff.
>
> > That's not to say an unofficial list is not be possible, it just would
> > be 100x harder to make effective --and for that, I doubt anyone really
> > has the time and energy for; and it certainly could not be me. I'm not
> > well liked by the community. In fact, the fact that *I* suggested it
> > pretty much guarantees that it will never happen. Ha ha! My devious
> > plan takes effect, Ruby will never have a beginner/expert list! ...
> > (just kidding)
>
> You may be surprised. At the 2nd RubyConf there was some discussion on
> some topic or another (I can't recall) that involved the prospect of
> first polling community needs or support. And the general reaction was,
> that's completely wrong: code talks, bullshit walks. Basically, if you
> wait to get support or permission or approval you'll die of old age.
> Just do what you think needs doing, and see who picks up on it.
>
> Not *everyone* hates you (I'm pretty sure) and the idea of a beginners
> list comes up so regularly that it may get take off no matter who runs
> it.
>
> Even you. :slight_smile:

Perhaps you are right. I not so sure I'm the guy for the job, but you
may be right that times have changed enough now that a "3rd party"
could get another list rolling. Hell, maybe both a help/beginner and
tech/expert list.

T.

39

You're not a member? Must not be cool enough... :wink:

···

On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 5:11 PM, Todd Benson <caduceass@gmail.com> wrote:

In any case, please try to avoid playing gestapo, Ruby Secret Society,
and what not :wink:

--
Technical Blaag at: http://blog.majesticseacreature.com | Non-tech
stuff at: http://metametta.blogspot.com

40

See also signal, noise and the ratio thereof.

martin

···

On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:09 AM, David Southwell <david@vizion2000.net> wrote:

It still seems no one has taken the point.. all this discussion about another
list seems to get lots of enthusiatic off topic discussion going about
another list when straight forward on topic requests for information go
unanswered by the community.

It seems there is more interest in debata than mutual support.