The Ruby troll [was: Looking for...]

ruby-talk
1

David H. Adler wrote:

Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:

David H. Adler wrote:

Switch to Ruby.

Of course, I'm at a loss to figure out why you keep posting about ruby
here. Well, other than the obvious reason. :expressionless:

And what would that obvious reason be?

If I was to learn another language, I'd be significantly less inclined to consider Ruby now after that troll has poisoned this group for some time.

                                 ^^^^^

I love a self-answering post, don't you? :wink:

Well, to me, being a troll is not a reason, it's a condition indicating a social disability or worse.

And, really, ruby looks pretty interesting. Blame the troll, not the
bridge.

I believe I was one of the first who realized the nature of it (the troll), and I tried to called the Ruby community's attention to it: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/browse_frm/thread/bbb053db6d9b7151

Guess I hoped that one or two Ruby programmers would have dissociated themselves from his actions. The lack of responses there makes me blame not only the troll, but also the Ruby community, and in my world, that's a rational reason for not considering the use of the language.

···

On 2005-09-16, William James wrote:

--
Gunnar Hjalmarsson
Email: http://www.gunnar.cc/cgi-bin/contact.pl

2

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.lang.perl.misc.]

I believe I was one of the first who realized the nature of it
(the troll),

Congratulations.

Guess I hoped that one or two Ruby programmers would have
dissociated themselves from his actions. The lack of responses
there makes me blame not only the troll, but also the Ruby
community, and in my world, that's a rational reason for not
considering the use of the language.

I'm a Ruby fan, but I wasn't even following this thread until
the word "Ruby" popped up in the subject. Thus I can't say if
I agree with this troll or not, nor am I willing to take the
time to find out who said what.

Most long-time posters, and from what I can tell, a good amount
of lurkers as well, in these NGs as well as many others, treat
trolls as they *should*: they *ignore* them. If Perl were
judged by it's trolls, as you judge Ruby, we'd never have
outgrown comp.lang.perl ...

I'm happy in my world. Where perl is king, ruby his sexy queen
and languages are judged by their usefulness, not their zealots.
(I also show lenience toward Lisp, despite it's association with
Emacs.) :wink:

C'mon, Gunnar. You've been around this group for some time.
I've watched your skills and posting style improve. You've seen
gurus, trolls, and hostile posters of all sorts come through
here. Would you judge Larry's creation based on Purl Gurl's
ever eloquent dissertations?

Tim Hammerquist

···

Gunnar Hjalmarsson <noreply@gunnar.cc> wrote:
--
A supercomputer is a device for converting
a CPU-bound problem into an I/O bound problem.
    -- Ken Batcher

3

David H. Adler wrote:
> Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:
>> David H. Adler wrote:
>>>> Switch to Ruby.
>>>
>>> Of course, I'm at a loss to figure out why you keep posting about
>>> ruby here. Well, other than the obvious reason. :expressionless:
>>
>> And what would that obvious reason be?
>>
>> If I was to learn another language, I'd be significantly less inclined
>> to consider Ruby now after that troll has poisoned this group for some
>> time.
> ^^^^^
>
> I love a self-answering post, don't you? :wink:

Well, to me, being a troll is not a reason, it's a condition indicating
a social disability or worse.

> And, really, ruby looks pretty interesting. Blame the troll, not the
> bridge.

I believe I was one of the first who realized the nature of it (the
troll), and I tried to called the Ruby community's attention to it:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/browse_frm/thread/bbb053db6
d9b7151

Why on Earth would you do such a thing?

Guess I hoped that one or two Ruby programmers would have dissociated
themselves from his actions.

Are you under the impression that the troll has to get permission from the
majority of comp.lang.ruby in order to post here? What exactly kind of
dissociation would you expect them to perform? Would it involve holy water
and relics of the cross?

The lack of responses there makes me blame
not only the troll, but also the Ruby community, and in my world, that's
a rational reason for not considering the use of the language.

In my world, expecting the people of one newsgroup to police another
newsgroup is simply mad. (Of course, the irony has not escaped me that
here I am, chastising you from clpm for something you wrote in clr.)

Xho

···

Gunnar Hjalmarsson <noreply@gunnar.cc> wrote:

>>> On 2005-09-16, William James wrote:

--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB

4

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.lang.perl.misc.]

I believe I was one of the first who realized the nature of it (the
troll), and I tried to called the Ruby community's attention to it:

[ snip ]

Guess I hoped that one or two Ruby programmers would have
dissociated themselves from his actions. The lack of responses
there makes me blame not only the troll, but also the Ruby
community, and in my world, that's a rational reason for not
considering the use of the language.

Trolls are uniqely immune to people getting angry at them.
I dare say it's their *goal*. Even assuming you manage to
enrage and embitter clr onlookers to rally against this "troll",
it would only make him more successful, no?

Besides, what is this mentality that it's one newsgroup's job to
police the actions of regular posters in another group?

This whole thread should have been replaced with a single,

    "Attention c.l.r members: this thread is somewhat off-topic
    in c.l.p.m. Could you please remove 'comp.lang.perl.misc'
    from further Newsgroups: headers? Thanks!"

Any further crossposting could be easily killfiled.

Cheers,
Tim Hammerquist

···

Gunnar Hjalmarsson <noreply@gunnar.cc> wrote:

5

In this spirit, as a c.l.p.m regular, and as a c.l.r lurker, I'd
like to apologize for Gunnar's noise contribution.

Cross-group policing is not an encouraged activity in c.l.p.m.

/me returns to playing with RoR.

Tim Hammerquist

···

Gunnar Hjalmarsson <noreply@gunnar.cc> wrote:

Guess I hoped that one or two Ruby programmers would have
dissociated themselves from his actions.

6

Tim Hammerquist wrote:

Would you judge Larry's creation based on Purl Gurl's
ever eloquent dissertations?

No, because many serious Perl programmers let the readers know what they thought about her postings. But if everyone had silently watched PurlGurl's ravages in clpmisc, I suppose many Perl users would have hesitated. I would.

This troll, the "William James" character, is posting Ruby solutions also in comp.lang.ruby where they are on topic, and I presume he is appreciated and respected for that there. What makes me pissed is that the Ruby community is indirectly, by its silence, approving of his advocating Ruby through spamming comp.lang.perl.misc with off topic posts.

IMO, languages such as Perl and Ruby should be judged not only by the technical usefulness of respective language, but also by the integrity of their users.

···

--
Gunnar Hjalmarsson
Email: http://www.gunnar.cc/cgi-bin/contact.pl

7

Tim Hammerquist wrote:

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.lang.perl.misc.]

Ignored, for obvious reasons.

Trolls are uniqely immune to people getting angry at them.
I dare say it's their *goal*. Even assuming you manage to
enrage and embitter clr onlookers to rally against this "troll",
it would only make him more successful, no?

Don't think so. Why do you choose to disregard the double-dealing by William James? He is trolling in clpmisc, while nothing indicates that he wants to be regarded a troll in clr.

Besides, what is this mentality that it's one newsgroup's job to
police the actions of regular posters in another group?

I never said it is it's "job". But it might be in _the interest_ of devoted 'Rubyists' to do so.

Just like you found it motivated to apologize in clr for my "noise contribution". :frowning:

···

--
Gunnar Hjalmarsson
Email: http://www.gunnar.cc/cgi-bin/contact.pl

8

Integrity is important. But I think you're expectations here are out of line.

I know what is hapenning on ruby-talk (comp.lang.ruby), but I have
neither the time, interest or inclination to follow
comp.lang.perl.misc. I also don't follow python, so if there is a
pro-ruby troll hanging out there I wouldn't know about that either.

Curt

···

On 9/20/05, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <noreply@gunnar.cc> wrote:

Tim Hammerquist wrote:
> Would you judge Larry's creation based on Purl Gurl's
> ever eloquent dissertations?

No, because many serious Perl programmers let the readers know what they
thought about her postings. But if everyone had silently watched
PurlGurl's ravages in clpmisc, I suppose many Perl users would have
hesitated. I would.

This troll, the "William James" character, is posting Ruby solutions
also in comp.lang.ruby where they are on topic, and I presume he is
appreciated and respected for that there. What makes me pissed is that
the Ruby community is indirectly, by its silence, approving of his
advocating Ruby through spamming comp.lang.perl.misc with off topic posts.

IMO, languages such as Perl and Ruby should be judged not only by the
technical usefulness of respective language, but also by the integrity
of their users.

9

indeed, but i think many here, including myself, simply value kindess and
politeness over integrity and seriousness and are unwillingly to risk the
former in order to enforce the latter. and even that assumes people are
reading both groups which, i think, is the exception rather than the rule.

regards.

-a

···

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005, Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:

No, because many serious Perl programmers let the readers know what they
thought about her postings. But if everyone had silently watched PurlGurl's
ravages in clpmisc, I suppose many Perl users would have hesitated. I would.

This troll, the "William James" character, is posting Ruby solutions also in
comp.lang.ruby where they are on topic, and I presume he is appreciated and
respected for that there. What makes me pissed is that the Ruby community is
indirectly, by its silence, approving of his advocating Ruby through
spamming comp.lang.perl.misc with off topic posts.

IMO, languages such as Perl and Ruby should be judged not only by the
technical usefulness of respective language, but also by the integrity of
their users.

--

email :: ara [dot] t [dot] howard [at] noaa [dot] gov
phone :: 303.497.6469
Your life dwells amoung the causes of death
Like a lamp standing in a strong breeze. --Nagarjuna

===============================================================================

10

Gunnar Hjalmarsson <noreply@gunnar.cc> writes:

IMO, languages such as Perl and Ruby should be judged not only by the
technical usefulness of respective language, but also by the integrity
of their users.

That has to be the single most preposterous thing I have *ever* read
in clpmisc.

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
  Lawrence Statton - lawrenabae@abaluon.abaom s/aba/c/g
Computer software consists of only two components: ones and
zeros, in roughly equal proportions. All that is required is to
sort them into the correct order.

11

Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:
...

This troll, the "William James" character, is posting Ruby solutions also in comp.lang.ruby where they are on topic, and I presume he is appreciated and respected for that there. What makes me pissed is that the Ruby community is indirectly, by its silence, approving of his advocating Ruby through spamming comp.lang.perl.misc with off topic posts.

Could I ask a favor? Please stop cross-spamming to the Ruby group.

Thanks,

James

12

Personally, I prefer a totalitarian world-state where the
nationalities of said trolls imprison them for crimes against
humanity.

So I disagree- I think you should be contacting the nation of
citizenship of William James rather the clr.

Of course, I need to think about more about this in case you are
right. Since I'm quiet in about 99.999% of all newsgroups, I'm
silently complicent in many millions of crimes (including some J2EE
related ones, for which I hear the penalities are particularly harsh).
I'd better go talk to my lawyer. Maybe if I stop using the Internet, I
can claim innocence for all future crimes and misdemenaours.

Cheers,
Nick

···

On 9/20/05, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <noreply@gunnar.cc> wrote:

Tim Hammerquist wrote:
> Would you judge Larry's creation based on Purl Gurl's
> ever eloquent dissertations?

No, because many serious Perl programmers let the readers know what they
thought about her postings. But if everyone had silently watched
PurlGurl's ravages in clpmisc, I suppose many Perl users would have
hesitated. I would.

This troll, the "William James" character, is posting Ruby solutions
also in comp.lang.ruby where they are on topic, and I presume he is
appreciated and respected for that there. What makes me pissed is that
the Ruby community is indirectly, by its silence, approving of his
advocating Ruby through spamming comp.lang.perl.misc with off topic posts.

IMO, languages such as Perl and Ruby should be judged not only by the
technical usefulness of respective language, but also by the integrity
of their users.

--
Gunnar Hjalmarsson
Email: http://www.gunnar.cc/cgi-bin/contact.pl

13

Aside from your the preposterous nature of your proposition (that clr
members should police so-called trolls in clpm), you seem not to
understand the nature of clr itself. I don't read clr; I read ruby-talk
-- a mailing list hosted by ruby-lang.org. This is bidirectionally
mirrored with clr. So when your post about "The Ruby troll" came in, it
was completely new to me and unrelated to anything else -- and
absolutely no indication that your message had originated on clpm and
was unceremoniously crossposted to clr (and therefore ruby-talk).

Since I don't watch newsgroups anymore (they lost their utility for me
some years ago), there's nothing I could have said or done about this
in any case. Frankly, I was wondering who this twit talking about a
"Ruby troll" (that is, *you*) was. Now that I understand, I'm still
baffled why you think it's our responsibility to police clpm when you
can't even apparently stay in clpm and must cross-post to ruby-talk
with no indication of where you've posted from. Perhaps you should
introduce yourself to the killfile features of your newsgroup reader.

I'm a bit surprised if you're what represents clpm these days as I
remember Perl developers being a bit more open-minded and friendly back
when I still used Perl. (I suspect that you're not completely
representative.)

14

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.lang.perl.misc.]

Tim Hammerquist wrote:
> ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.lang.perl.misc.]

Ignored, for obvious reasons.

What are these obvious reasons?
Help me, for I know not how I wrong you by following netiquette.

I doubt it's proper netiquette to kick a thread out of a group, especially
if the group is involved. I have said many times before, and do so again,
setting a follow up works best when the OP does it, otherwise it's either
ignored, or a part of the thread runs in all groups, and other parts don't,
creating quite a mess. Setting a follow up to "put things straight" rarely
works, if at all.

Yes, you're making a big ol' stink about nothing,

Well, William James *is* a pain in the ass.

···

Tim Hammerquist <tim@vegeta.ath.cx> wrote:

Gunnar Hjalmarsson <noreply@gunnar.cc> wrote:

--
John Small Perl scripts: Perl programming: help, examples, and tutorials
               Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
            Happy Customers: Testimonials by customers - Castle Amber

15

Ara.T.Howard wrote:

and even that assumes people are
reading both groups which, i think, is the exception rather than the rule.

I think so too. That's why I crossposted to clr.

Austin Ziegler wrote:

when your post about "The Ruby troll" came in, it
was completely new to me and unrelated to anything else -- and
absolutely no indication that your message had originated on clpm and
was unceremoniously crossposted to clr (and therefore ruby-talk).

I did make a mistake in that respect, and for that I apologize.

Xho wrote:

Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:

I tried to called the Ruby community's attention to it:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/browse_frm/thread/bbb053db6d9b7151

Why on Earth would you do such a thing?

To let the clr readers know that the regular clr poster William James is a Usenet troll. To rightfully discredit him.

Guess I hoped that one or two Ruby programmers would have dissociated
themselves from his actions.

What exactly kind of dissociation would you expect them to perform?

Well, one or two simple statements would have been nice.

If the opposite situation had been the case, i.e. some clpmisc regular had for several weeks spammed some other newsgroup with rude Perl advocacy posts, and somebody had complained to clpmisc, I have a feeling that a few clpmisc regulars would have made dissociative statements, and also made attempts to convince the culprit to stop.

···

--
Gunnar Hjalmarsson
Email: http://www.gunnar.cc/cgi-bin/contact.pl

16

Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:

Ara.T.Howard wrote:

and even that assumes people are
reading both groups which, i think, is the exception rather than the rule.

I think so too. That's why I crossposted to clr.

Yeah, here's the thing: I don't care what goes on in clpm.

That's not on a holistic scale, of course. On a holistic scale, I favor the general wellbeing of the world, and hope that nobody's forming coalitions to perform ethnic cleansings over in clpm, but as far as whether or not there happens to be a pro-Ruby troll: I don't care.

I don't care what clpm people think about me, or about the Ruby community. If someone chooses to derive a conclusion about the Ruby community without first spending time in clr/ruby-talk, then he is free to draw whatever dumbass inference he desires, for all I care.

On the other hand, if he visits clr/ruby-talk, I want him to have a generally positive impression both of the community, and of me. So:

Hi, Gunnar. I appreciate you pointing this out, but unfortunately I have no power over William James (don't even know the guy), and, having a life (sort of), I can't possibly take the time to try and influence him. I think it is up to you and the rest of clpm to police his actions in a way you guys best see fit. Thanks for visiting! I hope you venture into Ruby one day, too. It's fun.

Why on Earth would you do such a thing?

To let the clr readers know that the regular clr poster William James is a Usenet troll. To rightfully discredit him.

Ah. Well, again, thanks, but I don't really care who a person is, on this list, for the most part. For the most part, I just care what he's worth to me. And for the purposes of ruby-talk, it affects me not that he's a clpm troll. Maybe it'll have a real-world effect on me should I meet him at RubyConf and discover he has a crappy personality or something...

Of course, my opinion might not be representative, so thanks for the information, anyway.

Well, one or two simple statements would have been nice.

Well, sorry. In Ruby, there are no statements -- everything's an expression. *ba dum, ching*

Devin
Hope my honesty wasn't too brutal..

17

Did that work with Purl Gurl (where is she anyway)?

The Ruby troll is well aware of what he is doing, and probably keeps doing
it long after most regulars have kill filed it.

···

Gunnar Hjalmarsson <noreply@gunnar.cc> wrote:

statements, and also made attempts to convince the culprit to stop.

--
John Small Perl scripts: Perl programming: help, examples, and tutorials
               Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
            Happy Customers: Testimonials by customers - Castle Amber

18

John Bokma wrote:

statements, and also made attempts to convince the culprit to stop.

Did that work with Purl Gurl (where is she anyway)?

Maybe, since she is gone. :wink:

But seriously, the comparison is halting. William James is double-dealing: While he regularly makes presumably useful contributions at clr, he is trolling at clpmisc.

The Ruby troll is well aware of what he is doing,

Of course. And by making the clr readers aware of it, I'm trying to discomfort the troll.

Sure, it's an unusual action. But it's also an unusual kind of troll, right?

···

Gunnar Hjalmarsson <noreply@gunnar.cc> wrote:

--
Gunnar Hjalmarsson
Email: Send email to Gunnar Hjalmarsson

19

Devin Mullins wrote:

Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:

Why on Earth would you do such a thing?

To let the clr readers know that the regular clr poster William James is a Usenet troll. To rightfully discredit him.

Ah. Well, again, thanks, but I don't really care who a person is, on this list, for the most part. For the most part, I just care what he's worth to me. And for the purposes of ruby-talk, it affects me not that he's a clpm troll.

Okay, that's you. Probably there are a few others who look at it the same way.

But I happen to believe that there are also more community minded, less selfish people around at clr, people who are devoted to the open source language they love to develop and use, and who get upset at a regular clr participant who is deliberately hurting the image of Ruby.

Call me naive, if you like. I can live with that.

···

--
Gunnar Hjalmarsson
Email: Send email to Gunnar Hjalmarsson

20

Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:

Sure, it's an unusual action. But it's also an unusual kind of troll, right?

Maybe not -- not to be offensive, but it sounds like some Christian friends of my parents, who prosyletize not to be annoying, but because they really like my parents, and don't want them to end up in Hell.

(Gives new, and confusing, meaning to "devil's advocate.")

Devin