Ruby on OLPC?

ruby-talk
1

I've been seriously considering the One Laptop Per Child Give One Get One program, and it's starting to look really good at this point. However, the preferred scripting language is Python, and in fact the use of other languages is discouraged. Given that, I'm wondering if there's a Ruby port.

There is lots of other "interesting stuff under the hood." It doesn't appear to have GCC built in -- I think you have to cross-develop. But it has Squeak for the Smalltalk folks, Open Firmware for the Forth folks, and CSound for its audio toolset. I suppose, given all that, I could live with Python instead of Ruby, but I'd rather not. So ... does anyone know if Ruby has been made to run on one of them? Clearly it *can* be done -- the processor is an AMD Geode (MMX plus 3DNow! -- Athlon equivalent).

If I do get one, I most likely *won't* do a Ruby port myself -- given CSound, there are some other things I'm planning to do with it, and I don't mind learning Python if I have to. (*Anything* to avoid Squeak!) :slight_smile:

2

well, I was going to chime in with support / info, but not after that...

···

On Nov 26, 2007, at 18:29 , M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

*Anything* to avoid Squeak!

3

There's also the eeePC by Asus and the Nokia N800 if you want some linux minicomputers. I don't think they make the Zaurus devices for linux anymore so you have to get them off of eBay.

OLPC feels kind of imposing to me. I'm too afraid to rationalize this because people would probably call me a cold, cold person. (Hint: Has to do with US schools sucking).

···

On 2007-11-26 20:29:22 -0600, "M. Edward (Ed) Borasky" <znmeb@cesmail.net> said:

I've been seriously considering the One Laptop Per Child Give One Get
One program,

4

Go for it! The price is extremely reasonable, and it's for a good
cause. I ordered mine just two days ago, for my kids, of course. :wink:
If only I had the funds to order more...

- Dimitri

P.S. You could always generate more funds though:
http://www.olpcnews.com/internet/access/100_dollar_xo_laptop_sale.html

···

On Nov 27, 2007 3:29 AM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:

I've been seriously considering the One Laptop Per Child Give One Get
One program, and it's starting to look really good at this point.

5

"M. Edward (Ed) Borasky" <znmeb@cesmail.net> writes:

I've been seriously considering the One Laptop Per Child Give One Get
One program, and it's starting to look really good at this
point. However, the preferred scripting language is Python, and in
fact the use of other languages is discouraged. Given that, I'm
wondering if there's a Ruby port.

I was going to say "tough luck". Was the original 2 week limit just
hype or what?

In any case, Ruby will be running on it soon after I receive mine.

There is lots of other "interesting stuff under the hood." It doesn't
appear to have GCC built in -- I think you have to cross-develop. But
it has Squeak for the Smalltalk folks, Open Firmware for the Forth
folks, and CSound for its audio toolset. I suppose, given all that, I
could live with Python instead of Ruby, but I'd rather not. So
... does anyone know if Ruby has been made to run on one of them?
Clearly it *can* be done -- the processor is an AMD Geode (MMX plus
3DNow! -- Athlon equivalent).

Unless you have child-size hands, you may not enjoy typing on an OLPC.
(Mine is for use by an actual child, though I seem to be in the
minority in that regard.) Just download the developer image and boot
on whatever random PC. In fact, I suspect that if you then
immediately type something like "yum install ruby", you'll be
pleasantly surprised.

Steve

6

Ryan Davis wrote:

*Anything* to avoid Squeak!

well, I was going to chime in with support / info, but not after that...

I've loaded Squeak three times on my Linux boxes. I've bought both commonly-available Squeak books and attempted to work my way through them. I just can't get past the UI and how totally different it is from everything I've ever touched before. In short, I really *want* to like Squeak, but I don't.

Now I'm sure if I locked myself in a room with it for a month, I could figure out how to make it do what I wanted to do and would come out wishing someone would pay me to use it. But given all the other languages out there with UIs/IDEs that *do* work more or less the way I do, it just doesn't seem to be worth the effort.

Squeak (and Logo, btw) remind me of that old Tom Lehrer song about the "New Math": "It's so simple, so very simple, that only a child can do it!". I am 0.5 -- 1.0 generation older than the kids who were trained in that "New Math", and as a consequence I spend large parts of my day having to explain when one multiplies and when one divides to solve simple word problems.

"John's car gets 45 miles to the gallon on the highway and 10 miles to the gallon in the city. John drives 15 miles on the highway and one mile in the city to get to the office. What is his average gas mileage?"

···

On Nov 26, 2007, at 18:29 , M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

7

Steven Lumos wrote:

"M. Edward (Ed) Borasky" <znmeb@cesmail.net> writes:

I've been seriously considering the One Laptop Per Child Give One Get
One program, and it's starting to look really good at this
point. However, the preferred scripting language is Python, and in
fact the use of other languages is discouraged. Given that, I'm
wondering if there's a Ruby port.

I was going to say "tough luck". Was the original 2 week limit just
hype or what?

In any case, Ruby will be running on it soon after I receive mine.

There is lots of other "interesting stuff under the hood." It doesn't
appear to have GCC built in -- I think you have to cross-develop. But
it has Squeak for the Smalltalk folks, Open Firmware for the Forth
folks, and CSound for its audio toolset. I suppose, given all that, I
could live with Python instead of Ruby, but I'd rather not. So
... does anyone know if Ruby has been made to run on one of them?
Clearly it *can* be done -- the processor is an AMD Geode (MMX plus
3DNow! -- Athlon equivalent).

Unless you have child-size hands, you may not enjoy typing on an OLPC.
(Mine is for use by an actual child, though I seem to be in the
minority in that regard.) Just download the developer image and boot
on whatever random PC. In fact, I suspect that if you then
immediately type something like "yum install ruby", you'll be
pleasantly surprised.

Steve

Interesting. I just got confirmation that I'll be receiving mine. I wonder if the developer image will run under VMware Fusion?

···

--
RMagick: http://rmagick.rubyforge.org/

8

Joshua Cearley wrote:

There's also the eeePC by Asus and the Nokia N800 if you want some linux minicomputers. I don't think they make the Zaurus devices for linux anymore so you have to get them off of eBay.

I have a Zaurus 6000, but I haven't gotten a chance to try the open-source tools on it yet. Most of those are for the 5500, and I'm not sure how compatible they are or how active the developer community is. Sharp intended the 6000 for OEMs, not end users. They dropped end-user support literally hours after I got mine. Thanks for reminding me -- I should go see what's available for it.

OLPC feels kind of imposing to me. I'm too afraid to rationalize this because people would probably call me a cold, cold person. (Hint: Has to do with US schools sucking).

I'd refrain from saying snotty things about the US school system on public mailing lists if I were you. Stuff posted on the Internet lives forever, and you just never know when you'll be in a job interview with someone who's married to someone who has devoted his or her life to the US school system.

But go ahead and say snotty things about Perl or Python ... that's expected. :wink:

9

Steven Lumos wrote:

I was going to say "tough luck". Was the original 2 week limit just
hype or what?

It's been extended to the end of December. It's still only available in the US and Canada. There's another bonus -- T-Mobile is throwing in a year free wireless.

Unless you have child-size hands, you may not enjoy typing on an OLPC.
(Mine is for use by an actual child, though I seem to be in the
minority in that regard.)

I heard that on another mailing list. As I noted in another post, I've got a Zaurus 6000, and that keyboard truly is unusable. I've also got an LG "ENV" phone and that keyboard I can use (more or less). I actually got pretty good at keyboard work on the HP-100LX Palmtop PC -- the real bottleneck was the tiny screen at 80x25, not the keyboard. And what I've heard about the XO/OLPC is that its screen is superior to the ones in the "professional grade" laptops, especially for monochrome document reading.

Just download the developer image and boot
on whatever random PC. In fact, I suspect that if you then
immediately type something like "yum install ruby", you'll be
pleasantly surprised.

I'm about to do that, although it will be VMware Workstation 6, not a real machine. But I actually think I want Lisp (SBCL) before Ruby, because a lot of the other music software I like is in Lisp and there's virtually no music software in Ruby.

10

> *Anything* to avoid Squeak!

well, I was going to chime in with support / info, but not after that...

exactly, big thumbs down Ed,
but seriously now, what's wrong with Squeak (unless that it is not Forth;).

I also would like to have more information about discouraging other
languages, that seems a bold and stupid move IMHO, not at all in the
spirit of education on an open platform.
If this were true I would be rather shocked.

Robert

···

On Nov 27, 2007 9:10 AM, Ryan Davis <ryand-ruby@zenspider.com> wrote:

On Nov 26, 2007, at 18:29 , M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

--

http://ruby-smalltalk.blogspot.com/

---
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second,
it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Schopenhauer (attr.)

11

Tim Hunter wrote:

Interesting. I just got confirmation that I'll be receiving mine. I wonder if the developer image will run under VMware Fusion?

Probably ... I downloaded one a couple of months ago and it came up fine on VMware Workstation (Linux host). I couldn't figure out the UI -- as Tom Lehrer said, "It's so simple -- so very simple -- that only a child can do it!"

:wink:

12

"M. Edward (Ed) Borasky" <znmeb@cesmail.net> writes:

Joshua Cearley wrote:

There's also the eeePC by Asus and the Nokia N800 if you want some
linux minicomputers. I don't think they make the Zaurus devices for
linux anymore so you have to get them off of eBay.

I have a Zaurus 6000, but I haven't gotten a chance to try the
open-source tools on it yet. Most of those are for the 5500, and I'm
not sure how compatible they are or how active the developer community
is. Sharp intended the 6000 for OEMs, not end users. They dropped
end-user support literally hours after I got mine. Thanks for
reminding me -- I should go see what's available for it.

OLPC feels kind of imposing to me. I'm too afraid to rationalize
this because people would probably call me a cold, cold
person. (Hint: Has to do with US schools sucking).

I'd refrain from saying snotty things about the US school system on
public mailing lists if I were you. Stuff posted on the Internet lives
forever, and you just never know when you'll be in a job interview
with someone who's married to someone who has devoted his or her life
to the US school system.

Hmmm. That's not strictly true. Reading the list through Gmane, I
never saw the original message, so maybe he's using X-No-Archive or
friends.

So what does OLPC have to do with US schools? I have serious doubts
that we'll ever see them deployed here.

Steve

13

Ryan Davis wrote:
>
>
>> *Anything* to avoid Squeak!
>
> well, I was going to chime in with support / info, but not after that...
>
>
>

I've loaded Squeak three times on my Linux boxes. I've bought both
commonly-available Squeak books and attempted to work my way through
them. I just can't get past the UI and how totally different it is from
everything I've ever touched before. In short, I really *want* to like
Squeak, but I don't.

Now I'm sure if I locked myself in a room with it for a month, I could
figure out how to make it do what I wanted to do and would come out
wishing someone would pay me to use it. But given all the other
languages out there with UIs/IDEs that *do* work more or less the way I
do, it just doesn't seem to be worth the effort.

Squeak (and Logo, btw) remind me of that old Tom Lehrer song about the
"New Math": "It's so simple, so very simple, that only a child can do
it!". I am 0.5 -- 1.0 generation older than the kids who were trained in
that "New Math", and as a consequence I spend large parts of my day
having to explain when one multiplies and when one divides to solve
simple word problems.

"John's car gets 45 miles to the gallon on the highway and 10 miles to
the gallon in the city. John drives 15 miles on the highway and one mile
in the city to get to the office. What is his average gas mileage?"

Sorry Ed I have overlooked this when asking you why, that is indeed
good enough an answer.
Actually I share your problems, but I believe that they are here
because we were spoiled by "Old Math" :(.
R.

···

On Nov 27, 2007 4:02 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:

> On Nov 26, 2007, at 18:29 , M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

--

http://ruby-smalltalk.blogspot.com/

---
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second,
it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Schopenhauer (attr.)

14

IIRC, the restriction was on what could be used for a core component of
the platform (to keep the base size down), but that additional devel
environments could be added. I did find this reference:
    Java virtual machine can be added via Yum or RPM install
    but [is] not part of the standard distribution [1]

I will certainly be installing Ruby on mine.

[1] Software components - OLPC

···

On Dec 3, 2007 6:41 AM, Robert Dober <robert.dober@gmail.com> wrote:

I also would like to have more information about discouraging other
languages, that seems a bold and stupid move IMHO, not at all in the
spirit of education on an open platform.
If this were true I would be rather shocked.

15

I'm curious. What Lisp music software are you refering to?

···

On Nov 28, 9:13 pm, "M. Edward (Ed) Borasky" <zn...@cesmail.net> wrote:

But I actually think I want Lisp (SBCL) before Ruby,
because a lot of the other music software I like is in Lisp and there's
virtually no music software in Ruby.

16

Robert Dober wrote:

*Anything* to avoid Squeak!

well, I was going to chime in with support / info, but not after that...

exactly, big thumbs down Ed,
but seriously now, what's wrong with Squeak (unless that it is not Forth;).

Well ... both the full-sized Squeak and the eToys version packaged in the XO laptop are visually jarring to me, for openers. The mouse bindings are unlike anything I'm used to using. The fact that the whole environment is a "living document" -- I haven't been able to find an "undo" button -- is annoying.

I also would like to have more information about discouraging other
languages, that seems a bold and stupid move IMHO, not at all in the
spirit of education on an open platform.
If this were true I would be rather shocked.

From the wiki (Developers manual - OLPC):

Development Languages:

     * Technically any language is usable
     * Python is strongly encouraged, to have a single language "under the hood" when the curious child looks inside
     * C/C++ should be used where Python performance is unacceptable, but try to keep it to a minimum, preferably as standard well-encapsulated and documented components
     * Smalltalk-speaking developers may wish to work within the eToys environment
     * Javascript can be used in web-based applications (Gecko or Opera engine Javascript implementation)

GUI Environments:

     * PyGTK or the PyGTK-derived Sugar system should be used for most "Window, Icon, Mouse, Pointer" type GUIs. Note, however, as of 2007-04-21 that the Sugar "graphics" package is in Flux.
     * Pygame SDL-based 2D game environment can be used for "Canvas" graphics using "Sprites".
     * (Mozilla) XULRunner can be used to develop Gecko-based activities
     * EToys

The latest images I've downloaded have about 150 MB of free space out of 927 MB. I have been building my VMware virtual machines with 2 GB of space so I can try things out. If you're sneaky about repositories, you can load Fedora testing or unstable packages with a simple command. You can, for example, say, "yum install erlang". :slight_smile: But there isn't much room either on the base flash disk or in RAM.

I think a lot of people are looking at this as something other than what it really is and getting all excited. Back when I was much younger, the standing joke was that a child would get an electric train set for Christmas and Dad would end up taking it over. I can see something like that happening with the US-bound OLPC laptops.

These machines were designed to help children learn. I think if you download an image and see what's there, you'll understand a little better why Python is "strongly encouraged." It's the glue language that holds the whole platform together. Unlike most Linux distros, they haven't even installed Perl!

···

On Nov 27, 2007 9:10 AM, Ryan Davis <ryand-ruby@zenspider.com> wrote:

On Nov 26, 2007, at 18:29 , M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

17

That's the part that bothers me. Exporting technology resulting from a US research group to another country exclusively, meaning the schools here have to continue to fight for funding to do anything more than old whiteboards.

-JC

···

On 2007-11-29 16:29:56 -0600, Steven Lumos <steven@lumos.us> said:

So what does OLPC have to do with US schools? I have serious doubts
that we'll ever see them deployed here.

18

yermej wrote:

···

On Nov 28, 9:13 pm, "M. Edward (Ed) Borasky" <zn...@cesmail.net> > wrote:

But I actually think I want Lisp (SBCL) before Ruby,
because a lot of the other music software I like is in Lisp and there's
virtually no music software in Ruby.

I'm curious. What Lisp music software are you refering to?

Common Music and David Cope's algorithmic composition software. Some of the latter is generic, but some of it requires a Macintosh.

19

brabuhr@gmail.com wrote:

···

On Dec 3, 2007 6:41 AM, Robert Dober <robert.dober@gmail.com> wrote:

I also would like to have more information about discouraging other
languages, that seems a bold and stupid move IMHO, not at all in the
spirit of education on an open platform.
If this were true I would be rather shocked.

IIRC, the restriction was on what could be used for a core component of
the platform (to keep the base size down), but that additional devel
environments could be added. I did find this reference:
    Java virtual machine can be added via Yum or RPM install
    but [is] not part of the standard distribution [1]

I will certainly be installing Ruby on mine.

If it can run Java, it oughta be able to run JRuby just fine.

- Charlie

20

Maybe it was an error to develop all together, the OLPC should be a
hardware platform, then various different Linux/*BSD based platforms
could be implemented ...

just a thought.

R.

···

On Dec 8, 2007 8:33 AM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:

Robert Dober wrote:
> On Nov 27, 2007 9:10 AM, Ryan Davis <ryand-ruby@zenspider.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 26, 2007, at 18:29 , M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
>>
>>> *Anything* to avoid Squeak!
>> well, I was going to chime in with support / info, but not after that...
> exactly, big thumbs down Ed,
> but seriously now, what's wrong with Squeak (unless that it is not Forth;).

--

http://ruby-smalltalk.blogspot.com/

---
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second,
it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Schopenhauer (attr.)