Ruby-Nuby forum

ruby-talk
1

Hi all!

Results of our little opinion poll so far:

9 people are for,
5 are against,
2 are for only if the gateway feature is implemented (i.e., filtering
the traffic from the forum to ruby-talk and back)

As I understand, the main reason why people vote against it is that
community is friendly enough to nubies as is and not big enough to
justify splitting. And I agree with both of these statements.

However, splitting the community is NOT the purpose. The purpose is to
lower the entry barrier for uncommitted beginners (subscribing to a
mail-list with 100 mails/day traffic is commitment). As people become
more committed to Ruby, we will try to convince them to join ruby-talk.

[To David Black: "uncommitted beginners" may well include
"script-kiddies". They grow up, too.]

Since enough people seem to support the idea, we are going ahead with
it. By the way, gentlemen, I hope all of you who said "go for it" will
help answer stupid questions on the forum :slight_smile:

I think, it is important to address the concerns of those who voted
against the forum. At present, I have only a couple of ideas, maybe
somebody will have more:

1. Somewhere on a visible place there will be a statement along the
lines of "Ruby-talk mailing list is the best place to discuss Ruby
programming. Subscribe to ruby-talk today".

2. When someone creates a new thread on ruby-forum, we will
automatically mail notification to ruby-lang.

I am not very comfortable with the thought of building a two-way
communication with ruby-talk. To be more precise, I am not confident in
our ability to implement it well. Bugs in such a thing would be HUGELY
embarassing :slight_smile:

So far, I haven't found a decent forum implementation in Ruby (a couple
of simple BBSes are available on RubyForge, but nothing really
full-featured). Therefore, we will probably host it on phpGroup for now
(like this Ruby forum in Deutsch: http://www.rubyforen.de/index.php).

I have asked for a RubyForge project to do Ruby implementation of the
forum software. We are thinking to do it on Rails. If anyone wants to
take part in the development, please mail me off list.

To everybody who already participated in this thread: thanks!

Best regards,
Alexey Verkhovsky

2

Alexey Verkhovsky wrote:

Hi all!

Results of our little opinion poll so far:

What poll?

9 people are for, 5 are against, 2 are for only if the gateway feature is implemented (i.e., filtering
the traffic from the forum to ruby-talk and back)

As I understand, the main reason why people vote against it is that
community is friendly enough to nubies as is and not big enough to
justify splitting. And I agree with both of these statements.

Was there some actual vote someplace, or is this a loose interpretation of a complex and subtle discussion?

Pleas don't think you need permission of any sort to go start a forum, though I believe most do appreciate a chance to voice an opinion.

But please also don't misconstrue comments as being a vote "for" or "against" anything. Often things are said here simply to play devil's advocate or to provoke discussion. And telling someone that something may be a bad idea is not to say they shouldn't go try it. Just that they should be prepared for unexpected results.

James

3

Since enough people seem to support the idea, we are going ahead with
it. By the way, gentlemen, I hope all of you who said "go for it" will
help answer stupid questions on the forum :slight_smile:

I will, as opposed to, say, IRC, which is not really practical for me.

I think, it is important to address the concerns of those who voted
against the forum. At present, I have only a couple of ideas, maybe
somebody will have more:

1. Somewhere on a visible place there will be a statement along the
lines of "Ruby-talk mailing list is the best place to discuss Ruby
programming. Subscribe to ruby-talk today".

Good idea. It would be good to point out the difference between the
two fora, which to me is: in the "forum", repetitive questions are
encouraged as part of the learning process; in the mailing list, a
bit of prior research is appreciated.

2. When someone creates a new thread on ruby-forum, we will
automatically mail notification to ruby-lang.

Good idea. Make it discreet. Perhaps every forum page can just have
a small window listing the 10 most recent threads or something.

I am not very comfortable with the thought of building a two-way
communication with ruby-talk. To be more precise, I am not confident in
our ability to implement it well. Bugs in such a thing would be HUGELY
embarassing :slight_smile:

Indeed. If the forum gains critical mass, then there will be lots of
chatter, repeated questions, etc., which are not wanted on ruby-talk.
IMO, no form of automated bridging is desirable.

I have asked for a RubyForge project to do Ruby implementation of the
forum software. We are thinking to do it on Rails. If anyone wants to
take part in the development, please mail me off list.

Your time is almost certainly better spent fostering nubies than it is
building forum software. But it's not mutually exclusive, I guess.

To everybody who already participated in this thread: thanks!

Good luck!

Gavin

···

On Thursday, September 9, 2004, 7:33:07 AM, Alexey wrote:

4

Hi Alexey,

I'm glad to learn that you've decided to go for it. I'd like to
volunteer to be one of the folks answering questions - especially since
I may be asking a few myself :wink: Where and how should I sign up?

-- Brian Wisti

http://coolnamehere.com/

···

--- Alexey Verkhovsky <alex@verk.info> wrote:

Hi all!

Results of our little opinion poll so far:

9 people are for,
5 are against,
2 are for only if the gateway feature is implemented (i.e., filtering
the traffic from the forum to ruby-talk and back)

As I understand, the main reason why people vote against it is that
community is friendly enough to nubies as is and not big enough to
justify splitting. And I agree with both of these statements.

However, splitting the community is NOT the purpose. The purpose is
to
lower the entry barrier for uncommitted beginners (subscribing to a
mail-list with 100 mails/day traffic is commitment). As people become
more committed to Ruby, we will try to convince them to join
ruby-talk.

[To David Black: "uncommitted beginners" may well include
"script-kiddies". They grow up, too.]

Since enough people seem to support the idea, we are going ahead with
it. By the way, gentlemen, I hope all of you who said "go for it"
will
help answer stupid questions on the forum :slight_smile:

I think, it is important to address the concerns of those who voted
against the forum. At present, I have only a couple of ideas, maybe
somebody will have more:

1. Somewhere on a visible place there will be a statement along the
lines of "Ruby-talk mailing list is the best place to discuss Ruby
programming. Subscribe to ruby-talk today".

2. When someone creates a new thread on ruby-forum, we will
automatically mail notification to ruby-lang.

I am not very comfortable with the thought of building a two-way
communication with ruby-talk. To be more precise, I am not confident
in
our ability to implement it well. Bugs in such a thing would be
HUGELY
embarassing :slight_smile:

So far, I haven't found a decent forum implementation in Ruby (a
couple
of simple BBSes are available on RubyForge, but nothing really
full-featured). Therefore, we will probably host it on phpGroup for
now
(like this Ruby forum in Deutsch: rubyforen.de).

I have asked for a RubyForge project to do Ruby implementation of the
forum software. We are thinking to do it on Rails. If anyone wants to
take part in the development, please mail me off list.

To everybody who already participated in this thread: thanks!

Best regards,
Alexey Verkhovsky

5

I know I'm only one voice, but I'm not fond of the idea of seeing questions I cannot reply to and answer. If you do this, please provide prominent notification in the message that the poster will not see a reply and a link to the question where I could give an answer.

In my opinion, if we're just going for a one-way transference of information to keep Ruby Talk aware of what's going on there, the summary idea presented earlier in the discussion would serve nicely.

James Edward Gray II

···

On Sep 8, 2004, at 4:33 PM, Alexey Verkhovsky wrote:

2. When someone creates a new thread on ruby-forum, we will
automatically mail notification to ruby-lang.

6

Of course not. Don't take this too seriously.

Alex

···

On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 00:57, James Britt wrote:

Alexey Verkhovsky wrote:

Was there some actual vote someplace, or is this a loose interpretation
of a complex and subtle discussion?

7

Depends on one;s definition of "better". I want to get a personal
opinion in of Ruby vs. J2EE subject, after all. :slight_smile:

Alex

···

On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 01:51, Gavin Sinclair wrote:

Your time is almost certainly better spent fostering nubies than it is
building forum software. But it's not mutually exclusive, I guess.

8

... and that was *intended* to be off-list. I still need to learn how
to use Yahoo mail properly. Sorry for the semi-spam, folks.

-- Brian Wisti

···

--- Brian Wisti <brianwisti@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi Alexey,

I'm glad to learn that you've decided to go for it. I'd like to
volunteer to be one of the folks answering questions - especially
since
I may be asking a few myself :wink: Where and how should I sign up?

-- Brian Wisti

http://coolnamehere.com/

--- Alexey Verkhovsky <alex@verk.info> wrote:

> Hi all!
>
> Results of our little opinion poll so far:
>
> 9 people are for,
> 5 are against,
> 2 are for only if the gateway feature is implemented (i.e.,
filtering
> the traffic from the forum to ruby-talk and back)
>
> As I understand, the main reason why people vote against it is that
> community is friendly enough to nubies as is and not big enough to
> justify splitting. And I agree with both of these statements.
>
> However, splitting the community is NOT the purpose. The purpose is
> to
> lower the entry barrier for uncommitted beginners (subscribing to a
> mail-list with 100 mails/day traffic is commitment). As people
become
> more committed to Ruby, we will try to convince them to join
> ruby-talk.
>
> [To David Black: "uncommitted beginners" may well include
> "script-kiddies". They grow up, too.]
>
> Since enough people seem to support the idea, we are going ahead
with
> it. By the way, gentlemen, I hope all of you who said "go for it"
> will
> help answer stupid questions on the forum :slight_smile:
>
> I think, it is important to address the concerns of those who voted

> against the forum. At present, I have only a couple of ideas, maybe
> somebody will have more:
>
> 1. Somewhere on a visible place there will be a statement along the
> lines of "Ruby-talk mailing list is the best place to discuss Ruby
> programming. Subscribe to ruby-talk today".
>
> 2. When someone creates a new thread on ruby-forum, we will
> automatically mail notification to ruby-lang.
>
> I am not very comfortable with the thought of building a two-way
> communication with ruby-talk. To be more precise, I am not
confident
> in
> our ability to implement it well. Bugs in such a thing would be
> HUGELY
> embarassing :slight_smile:
>
> So far, I haven't found a decent forum implementation in Ruby (a
> couple
> of simple BBSes are available on RubyForge, but nothing really
> full-featured). Therefore, we will probably host it on phpGroup for
> now
> (like this Ruby forum in Deutsch:
rubyforen.de).
>
> I have asked for a RubyForge project to do Ruby implementation of
the
> forum software. We are thinking to do it on Rails. If anyone wants
to
> take part in the development, please mail me off list.
>
> To everybody who already participated in this thread: thanks!
>
> Best regards,
> Alexey Verkhovsky
>
>
>

9

I'm glad to learn that you've decided to go for it.

Thanks.

Where and how should I sign up?

This we will know in a week, maybe two.

Brgds,
Alex

···

On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 02:09, Brian Wisti wrote:

10

I know I'm only one voice, but I'm not fond of the idea of seeing
questions I cannot reply to and answer.

Notification will contain a URL back to the forum thread. Anonymous
posting will be supported. Therefore, no hassle.

summary idea presented earlier in the discussion would serve nicely.

My idea is that people here will know that someone asked a question
there immediately, not two weeks later.

If anything interesting comes up in the answers to the question, we can
the summary of the thread back to ruby-talk, too.

Brgds,
Alex

···

On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 02:28, James Edward Gray II wrote:

11

Alexey Verkhovsky wrote:

Your time is almost certainly better spent fostering nubies than it is
building forum software. But it's not mutually exclusive, I guess.

Depends on one;s definition of "better". I want to get a personal
opinion in of Ruby vs. J2EE subject, after all. :slight_smile:

They're sort of apples and oranges; one could create the equivalent of J2EE in Ruby, and suffer similar headaches. The point of comparison might be, what is it about Ruby that would obviate the need to do something like J2EE in the first place.

Having a nubie team project can be instructive, though, as certain issues or design principles don't come up until a program reaches a certain size.

James

···

On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 01:51, Gavin Sinclair wrote:

12

What if a person wants to follow both lists? I guess I don't much like
the idea of cross-talk between the lists (one-way or two-way). If people
want to be "in the loop" they subscribe to both lists. It's much, much
simpler, and it gives people more flexibility in what messages they
choose to see.

Randy.

PS: Hi, James.

···

On 9/8/2004 7:40 PM, Alexey Verkhovsky wrote:

On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 02:28, James Edward Gray II wrote:

I know I'm only one voice, but I'm not fond of the idea of seeing questions I cannot reply to and answer.

Notification will contain a URL back to the forum thread. Anonymous
posting will be supported. Therefore, no hassle.

summary idea presented earlier in the discussion would serve nicely.

My idea is that people here will know that someone asked a question
there immediately, not two weeks later.

If anything interesting comes up in the answers to the question, we can
the summary of the thread back to ruby-talk, too.

13

Randy wrote:

My idea is that people here will know that someone asked a question
there immediately, not two weeks later.

If anything interesting comes up in the answers to the question, we
can the summary of the thread back to ruby-talk, too.

What if a person wants to follow both lists? I guess I don't much like
the idea of cross-talk between the lists (one-way or two-way). If people
want to be "in the loop" they subscribe to both lists. It's much, much
simpler, and it gives people more flexibility in what messages they
choose to see.

+1 from me.

ruby-talk is archived and floods people's inboxen daily. There's a time
and a place for forum-type chatter and simple Q&A, but the ruby-talk
archive and people's inboxen are not it!

There will be enough people monitoring the forum to answer any simple
question. Difficult ones -- the minority -- can be relayed to ruby-talk
manually (by the person who wishes to answer), with great ease and
purpose. This is excatly what happens currently with IRC; the forum
should be no different.

My original suggestion for a fortnightly roundup of forum activity on
ruby-talk was aimed at low-volume information only, to satisfy
ruby-talkers' curiosity and gain some publicity for the forum. The
knowledge that there is activity there would draw more experts.

Cheers,
Gavin

14

Having a nubie team project can be instructive,
though, as certain
issues or design principles don't come up until a
program reaches a
certain size.

Agreed. I have seen some new programmer projects that
are absolutely scary, In ruby and other languages. It
is best to get experienced ruby programmers to create
the ruby board. --David Ross

···

James

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

15

Randy W. Sims ha scritto:

What if a person wants to follow both lists? I guess I don't much like
the idea of cross-talk between the lists (one-way or two-way). If people
want to be "in the loop" they subscribe to both lists. It's much, much
simpler, and it gives people more flexibility in what messages they
choose to see.

completely agreed

16

There will be enough people monitoring the forum to
answer any simple
question. Difficult ones -- the minority -- can be
relayed to ruby-talk
manually (by the person who wishes to answer), with
great ease and
purpose. This is excatly what happens currently
with IRC; the forum
should be no different.

There is just warm feeling that comes from
irc/webforms than there is from any mailing list. On
web forums.. expect python trolls going "Ruby is
dying" though :stuck_out_tongue:

--David Ross

···

--- Gavin Sinclair <gsinclair@soyabean.com.au> wrote:

Cheers,
Gavin

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

17

Randy wrote:
>> My idea is that people here will know that someone asked a question
>> there immediately, not two weeks later.
>>
>> If anything interesting comes up in the answers to the question, we
>> can the summary of the thread back to ruby-talk, too.
>
> What if a person wants to follow both lists? I guess I don't much like
> the idea of cross-talk between the lists (one-way or two-way). If people
> want to be "in the loop" they subscribe to both lists. It's much, much
> simpler, and it gives people more flexibility in what messages they
> choose to see.

+1 from me.

ruby-talk is archived and floods people's inboxen daily. There's a time
and a place for forum-type chatter and simple Q&A, but the ruby-talk
archive and people's inboxen are not it!

There will be enough people monitoring the forum to answer any simple
question. Difficult ones -- the minority -- can be relayed to ruby-talk
manually (by the person who wishes to answer), with great ease and
purpose. This is excatly what happens currently with IRC; the forum
should be no different.

Yep, and it's also the perfect time to "graduate" the nuby to the main
list if they've not been here yet.

My original suggestion for a fortnightly roundup of forum activity on
ruby-talk was aimed at low-volume information only, to satisfy
ruby-talkers' curiosity and gain some publicity for the forum. The
knowledge that there is activity there would draw more experts.

maybe weekly, but either way, instant would be a bit much, and defeats
the purpose to a degree.

···

On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:58:05 +0900, Gavin Sinclair <gsinclair@soyabean.com.au> wrote:

--
Bill Guindon (aka aGorilla)

18

They're sort of apples and oranges; one could create the equivalent >

J2EE in Ruby, and suffer similar headaches. The point of comparison

might be, what is it about Ruby that would obviate the need to do
something like J2EE in the first place.

Precisely.

···

On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 02:51, James Britt wrote:

On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 04:07, David Ross wrote:

It is best to get experienced ruby programmers to create
the ruby board. --David Ross

http://rubyforge.org/projects/ruby-forum/
Would any experienced ruby programmers like to join?

By the way, yours truly is not exactly a rookie, been programming since
mid 80s. :slight_smile:

Alex

19

Which definitely suggests that some moderation may be in order, since
the readers of a newbie list may not be experienced enough to recognize
and discard trolls (or trollish statements made by otherwise warm and
snuggly members).

-- Brian Wisti

http://coolnamehere.com/

···

--- David Ross <drossruby@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- Gavin Sinclair <gsinclair@soyabean.com.au> wrote:

> There will be enough people monitoring the forum to
> answer any simple
> question. Difficult ones -- the minority -- can be
> relayed to ruby-talk
> manually (by the person who wishes to answer), with
> great ease and
> purpose. This is excatly what happens currently
> with IRC; the forum
> should be no different.

There is just warm feeling that comes from
irc/webforms than there is from any mailing list. On
web forums.. expect python trolls going "Ruby is
dying" though :stuck_out_tongue:

--David Ross

20

Alexey Verkhovsky wrote:

http://rubyforge.org/projects/ruby-forum/ Would any experienced ruby programmers like to join?

By the way, yours truly is not exactly a rookie, been programming since
mid 80s. :slight_smile:

In Ruby ?

:slight_smile:

James