Ruby-Nuby forum

ruby-talk
21

Hi --

Don't wait for approval from the whole community, because you're not
going to get it. There will always be some folks who think that all
communication about Ruby should be through a single central list.

I agree with the first sentence (as per one of my earlier posts), but
not with the second. No one's talking about "all communication about
Ruby" taking place here on this list. I mentioned the IRC channel;
others have mentioned wikis, and so on. I think the reservations that
have been raised have to do with the merits of a nuby-helping-nuby
environment, as well as the fact that this list is historically a home
for nubies as well as experienced users.

I understand their motivation, but these folks have to realize that
a newbie is going to be seriously intimidated by a high-traffic list
discussing everything from basic Ruby questions to the fundamental
underpinnings of object-orientation and occasional digressions about
the One True Operating System.

Fear and intimidation keep coming up. I just hate to see that. It's
so much not what the regulars on this list have tried hard to
cultivate :frowning:

David

···

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, Brian Wisti wrote:

--
David A. Black
dblack@wobblini.net

22

Hi --

Food for thought: Why don't we school 12th graders in the same room at
the same time as 1st graders?

Well, as a college professor, I can testify to sometimes feeling that
we school kindergarteners and upper-level grad students in the same
room, even though all my students are actually undergraduates :slight_smile:

In any case, as I said, I'm not big on stratification where it isn't
necessary. (It's necessary in the case of the formal education of 17-
vs. 6-year-olds.) But if you think it will help you learn Ruby, then
you should try it; but keep in mind that many people have said that
they think that Ruby's greatest strength is its community. So don't
be a stranger :slight_smile:

David

···

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, James Edward Gray II wrote:

--
David A. Black
dblack@wobblini.net

23

James Edward Gray II wrote:

Food for thought: Why don't we school 12th graders in the same room at the same time as 1st graders?

Various reasons, I'm sure, though none that have to do with this list or
community. This is not a class room.

If I were to make an analogy with school, though, I would say that this
list is more like a school cafeteria. Everyone in the same place,
intermingling as they see fit, most people trying not to ostracize anyone.

James

24

Because when one has a full classroom of student and a single teacher, the
teacher can not deliver content appropriate to the whole range of students
in the alotted time.

It's not analagous to ruby-talk, though.

Ruby-talk is n classrooms with n1 teachers and n2 students, where n1 is
approximately equal to n2. And these classrooms are self-segregating so
that the 12th graders don't need to participate in the classes on spelling 3
letter words and counting unless they, perhaps, feel like helping to be one
of the teachers, while the 1st graders can stay out of the calculus classes,
unless the 1st grader is precocious and interested in calculus.

Kirk Haines

···

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 00:17:32 +0900, James Edward Gray II wrote

Food for thought: Why don't we school 12th graders in the same room
at the same time as 1st graders?

25

Hi --

> Don't wait for approval from the whole community, because you're
not
> going to get it. There will always be some folks who think that all
> communication about Ruby should be through a single central list.

I agree with the first sentence (as per one of my earlier posts), but
not with the second. No one's talking about "all communication about
Ruby" taking place here on this list. I mentioned the IRC channel;
others have mentioned wikis, and so on. I think the reservations
that
have been raised have to do with the merits of a nuby-helping-nuby
environment, as well as the fact that this list is historically a
home
for nubies as well as experienced users.

Well, I wasn't referring to you *specifically*, just overgeneralizing
to make a wobbly point :slight_smile:

> I understand their motivation, but these folks have to realize that
> a newbie is going to be seriously intimidated by a high-traffic
list
> discussing everything from basic Ruby questions to the fundamental
> underpinnings of object-orientation and occasional digressions
about
> the One True Operating System.

Fear and intimidation keep coming up. I just hate to see that. It's
so much not what the regulars on this list have tried hard to
cultivate :frowning:

Very little fear and intimidation is deliberately introduced to the
list. I'm just thinking about the positive experiences I had with
Python Tutor list. People felt comfortable asking stupid questions,
because they were safe from being flooded by acronyms, buzzwords, and
terminology that provided more information than they were ready for.
Most folks would only be subscribed to the list for a few months, and
would then move on to the much noisier official Python newsgroup.
However, a few would stick around to provide answers for future nervous
newbies.

ruby-talk is a great forum. It's just that it's a forum for
*everything*, while some folks may be more comfortable with a forum
specifically for learning Ruby.

I do like the [NUBY] filtering scheme, though. :slight_smile:

-- Brian Wisti
http://coolnamehere.com/

···

--- "David A. Black" <dblack@wobblini.net> wrote:

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, Brian Wisti wrote:

26

Oh, if that's your complaint, I disagree. :wink:

Being with a group of your peers is almost always a good thing, I think. If Nuby A asks a question and Nuby B chimes in with a wrong answer, that's still a positive thing, in my opinion. You now have two people thinking about something and trying to work through it. Eventually, the right answer will be brought about (by themselves, us helping, or whatever) and both will learn something. Both will also be qualified to answer it next time as questions generally recycle. That's just a super crude example too.

Reading on in the thread, Brain Wisti's description of Python Tutor matches what I remember from Perl Beginners to the letter. Funny that we both would have such identical memories of different lists.

Perhaps you might want to browse one of these groups, because I have a feeling they are quite different from what your expecting.

James Edward Gray II

···

On Sep 7, 2004, at 12:39 PM, David A. Black wrote:

I think the reservations that have been raised have to do with the merits of a nuby-helping-nuby environment, as well as the fact that this list is historically a home
for nubies as well as experienced users.

27

David A. Black ha scritto:

Fear and intimidation keep coming up. I just hate to see that. It's
so much not what the regulars on this list have tried hard to
cultivate :frowning:

well, but it's obvious. To get the idea that the list is friendly you have to look at the list for some time.
And most of the time you won't even notice that silly things have a good acceptance, cause you can't understand they're silly.

I grow the idea that a comp.lang.ruby.nuby ng+list would be a good Thing (TM). It is something where people would feel allowed to post question since they just surfed on ruby-lang.org.
  Plus it is somewhat otpmistic about the traffic on c.l.r growing too much for a single list/ng :wink:

28

That is a very good idea. I have a few thoughts to add
on to your idea.

1. Have the new ruby programmer list completely
sepereate from the ruby-talk email system.

2. all mail gets delivered to thier list unless it is
prefixed with the magic [RT] keyword - (NUBY) is just
too harse mentally.

3- the filter picks out the [RT]'ed emails and
delivers here, the replies to the [RT] emails get
redelivered here and at the new ruby programmer list.

You have a good idea, it just needed to be stretched
out more.

--David Ross

···

--- Bill Kelly <billk@cts.com> wrote:

> There will always be some folks who think that all
> communication about Ruby should be through a
single central list.

Here's a weird idea . . .

What if the nuby mailing list was (behind the
scenes) just a
filter for ruby-talk ?

So that all messages posted to the nuby list
appeared in
ruby-talk with [NUBY] or whatever in the subject?

And conversely, only/all such messages so-prefixed
would be
delivered to the subscribers of the nuby list?

(Such prefixes could even be stripped when delivered
to the
nuby list subscribers...)

Well - just a thought :slight_smile:

Regards,

Bill

__________________________________
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29

Hi --

> Food for thought: Why don't we school 12th graders in the same room
> at the same time as 1st graders?

Because when one has a full classroom of student and a single teacher, the
teacher can not deliver content appropriate to the whole range of students
in the alotted time.

It's not analagous to ruby-talk, though.

Ruby-talk is n classrooms with n1 teachers and n2 students, where n1 is
approximately equal to n2. And these classrooms are self-segregating so
that the 12th graders don't need to participate in the classes on spelling 3
letter words and counting unless they, perhaps, feel like helping to be one
of the teachers, while the 1st graders can stay out of the calculus classes,
unless the 1st grader is precocious and interested in calculus.

And 12th graders sometimes realize they were absent on a really
important day back in 3rd grade and have to make up for it. And
everyone's a student, and almost everyone is a teacher. And some of
the students are twice or more the age of some of the teachers, who
are also students, and who are in some cases good friends or
professional colleagues of the teachers, or was that the students...?
:slight_smile:

David

···

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, Kirk Haines wrote:

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 00:17:32 +0900, James Edward Gray II wrote

--
David A. Black
dblack@wobblini.net

30

Likewise for me with the Perl Beginner's list, as well as an HTML
beginner's list from way back when.

-- Brian Wisti

http://coolnamehere.com/

···

--- James Edward Gray II <james@grayproductions.net> wrote:

Reading on in the thread, Brain Wisti's description of Python Tutor
matches what I remember from Perl Beginners to the letter. Funny
that
we both would have such identical memories of different lists.

31

Hi --

> I think the reservations that have been raised have to do with the
> merits of a nuby-helping-nuby environment, as well as the fact that
> this list is historically a home
> for nubies as well as experienced users.

Oh, if that's your complaint, I disagree. :wink:

With which one? :slight_smile: Actually the second point -- that ruby-talk has
always been, and still is, a home for nubies -- is the more important
for me; I have enough invested in this list, and have worked hard
enough over the years to make people feel welcome here, that I am sad
to see it talked about as frightening, intimidating, etc.

Being with a group of your peers is almost always a good thing, I
think.

I agree; that's why I've always liked it here. I love the fact that,
even as a nuby, my peers were understood to include experienced Ruby
programmers. I know I'm making it sound more utopian than it is. But
what I like about it -- and the Ruby world in general -- is that it's
not built on the heavily stratified, "I'm-a-worm-and-you're-a-wizard"
(or vice versa), aggressively pyramidal model that characterizes so
many other communities. I've always had a personal distaste for that
kind of thing, and therefore (among other reasons) been very happy in
the Ruby world.

Anyway -- if you think your project will help you, you should do it.
I hope we'll see you and your colleagues around here too, and also on
IRC.

David

···

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, James Edward Gray II wrote:

On Sep 7, 2004, at 12:39 PM, David A. Black wrote:

--
David A. Black
dblack@wobblini.net

32

* James Edward Gray II <james@grayproductions.net> [2004-09-08 03:41:43 +0900]:

Seems to me that we can't see the forest for the trees.
If the OP post was not getting a response, then I would say,
yeah, go ahead, there is a need for a nuby group.

But, instead, I see competent and gracious posts from some
of the world's best rubyists.

I don't understand the motivation. Sure, it's been done elsewhere, but
is it really needed here?

···

--
Jim Freeze

33

Are you suggesting we have to add [RT] to every message we DON'T want going to the Nuby list? I don't see that happening. People new to Ruby Talk certainly wouldn't know the trick, by way of example.

I would think the correct system would be just the opposite. Mails titled with [NUBY] (or whatever) should be the ones that DO jump lists. Then if the gateway between lists ensures that all messages are moved from the Nuby list to here and gain a [NUBY] if needed in the transfer, replies should work as expected and posted should rarely have a need to force special behavior for their messages.

James Edward Gray II

···

On Sep 8, 2004, at 8:30 AM, David Ross wrote:

2. all mail gets delivered to thier list unless it is
prefixed with the magic [RT] keyword - (NUBY) is just
too harse mentally.

34

David, first of all thank you for your elaborate expression what I think I intended to say - but maybe less clear and well formulated!

"David A. Black" <dblack@wobblini.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0409071337180.2292-100000@wobblini...

Hi --

> I think the reservations that have been raised have to do with the
> merits of a nuby-helping-nuby environment, as well as the fact that
> this list is historically a home
> for nubies as well as experienced users.

Oh, if that's your complaint, I disagree. :wink:

With which one? :slight_smile: Actually the second point -- that ruby-talk has
always been, and still is, a home for nubies -- is the more important
for me; I have enough invested in this list, and have worked hard
enough over the years to make people feel welcome here, that I am sad
to see it talked about as frightening, intimidating, etc.

Maybe it's not really ruby-talk that's frightening; it could be the label (it's not called "ruby-nuby" or "comp.lang.ruby.beginners") or some of the more esoteric subjects. I don't think that efforts of you and others to make this a comfy place for everybody failed. Indeed, I'd say they succeeded - I know *far* more hostile newsgroups.

It may very well be that a certain amount of shyness is indeed good, because it encourages folks to search for resources on their own or think again about the issue at hand before posting. That might well keep too trivial and easy to find stuff off the list. (I'm not an expert at newsgroup psychology, but that's my impression.)

Being with a group of your peers is almost always a good thing, I
think.

I agree; that's why I've always liked it here. I love the fact that,
even as a nuby, my peers were understood to include experienced Ruby
programmers. I know I'm making it sound more utopian than it is. But
what I like about it -- and the Ruby world in general -- is that it's
not built on the heavily stratified, "I'm-a-worm-and-you're-a-wizard"
(or vice versa), aggressively pyramidal model that characterizes so
many other communities. I've always had a personal distaste for that
kind of thing, and therefore (among other reasons) been very happy in
the Ruby world.

I couldn't agree more!

Anyway -- if you think your project will help you, you should do it.
I hope we'll see you and your colleagues around here too, and also on
IRC.

Personally I like Bill's filter idea. Can anybody comment on the feasability?

Kind regards

    robert

···

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, James Edward Gray II wrote:

On Sep 7, 2004, at 12:39 PM, David A. Black wrote:

35

jim@freeze.org ha scritto:

* James Edward Gray II <james@grayproductions.net> [2004-09-08 03:41:43 +0900]:

Seems to me that we can't see the forest for the trees.
If the OP post was not getting a response, then I would say,
yeah, go ahead, there is a need for a nuby group.

But, instead, I see competent and gracious posts from some
of the world's best rubyists.

I don't understand the motivation. Sure, it's been done elsewhere, but
is it really needed here?

the motivation is not that he wont' get his answer, is that he won't feel comfortable asking. He'd have to wait to understand that the list will be friendly, while being in a nuby-oriented group he would feel authorized to ask simple questions from the beginning.
An in the end is not an aut aut, we would still have nuby questions here and probably complex questions there..

36

your second accessment is what I meant.

ex.

- I sent email to ruby.newprogrammers, it goes to that
list only
- I send another one with "[RT] help me" to
ruby.newprogrammers, it goes to the Ruby-talk list as
well
- I send emails all day to ruby-talk, they stay there,
if I post a reply to one which is prefixed by [RT], it
goes to the ruby.newprogrammers list

--David Ross

--- James Edward Gray II <james@grayproductions.net>
wrote:

···

On Sep 8, 2004, at 8:30 AM, David Ross wrote:

> 2. all mail gets delivered to thier list unless it
is
> prefixed with the magic [RT] keyword - (NUBY) is
just
> too harse mentally.

Are you suggesting we have to add [RT] to every
message we DON'T want
going to the Nuby list? I don't see that happening.
People new to
Ruby Talk certainly wouldn't know the trick, by way
of example.

I would think the correct system would be just the
opposite. Mails
titled with [NUBY] (or whatever) should be the ones
that DO jump lists.
  Then if the gateway between lists ensures that all
messages are moved
from the Nuby list to here and gain a [NUBY] if
needed in the transfer,
replies should work as expected and posted should
rarely have a need to
force special behavior for their messages.

James Edward Gray II

__________________________________
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37

You aren't going to get a valid response off this
mailing list. Everyone has thier own opinion. Just
build the site and see how it turns out. --David Ross

···

--- gabriele renzi <rff_rff@remove-yahoo.it> wrote:

jim@freeze.org ha scritto:
> * James Edward Gray II <james@grayproductions.net>
[2004-09-08 03:41:43 +0900]:
>
> Seems to me that we can't see the forest for the
trees.
> If the OP post was not getting a response, then I
would say,
> yeah, go ahead, there is a need for a nuby group.
>
> But, instead, I see competent and gracious posts
from some
> of the world's best rubyists.
>
> I don't understand the motivation. Sure, it's been
done elsewhere, but
> is it really needed here?
>

the motivation is not that he wont' get his answer,
is that he won't
feel comfortable asking. He'd have to wait to
understand that the list
will be friendly, while being in a nuby-oriented
group he would feel
authorized to ask simple questions from the
beginning.
An in the end is not an aut aut, we would still have
nuby questions here
and probably complex questions there..

_______________________________
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Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush

38

I am trying to get the following to work:

dir = Dir.new( d ) if( File.directory?( d=$*.shift ) )
puts d
puts dir

d always outputs correctly, but dir always outputs nil. I tried

puts d if( File.directory?( d=$*.shift ) )

and d is outputted correctly. Why doesn't my first statement work?

Thanks,

Zach

39

your second accessment is what I meant.

Not quite. See below...

ex.

- I sent email to ruby.newprogrammers, it goes to that
list only

The majority here has expressed a strong desire to see what goes on in any Nuby forum, so this doesn't seem like the way to go.

My suggestion was that ALL Nuby messages be moved to Ruby Talk and gain a [NUBY] if needed. That seems to keep Ruby Talk in the loop, as many have requested. Plus, if anyone isn't interested in the Nuby list traffic it's trivial to filter out.

- I send another one with "[RT] help me" to
ruby.newprogrammers, it goes to the Ruby-talk list as
well

This seems wrong to me, simply because it requires intimate knowledge of how the messages are handled. The people of this list have asked to stay informed and Nubies want help from those in the know, so it seems this should be the default behavior.

- I send emails all day to ruby-talk, they stay there,
if I post a reply to one which is prefixed by [RT], it
goes to the ruby.newprogrammers list

This really confuses me. Posting to Ruby Talk with [RT] (presumably short for "Ruby Talk") sends the message to Ruby Nuby? That doesn't make sense to me.

It seems like 90% of the messages that are sent to Ruby Talk and need to be forwarded are going to be replies to posts that came from there with answers to their questions. With the above procedures in place, those replies should have a [NUBY] in their subject, so the default behavior should be to move those messages across.

The special cases are that a Ruby Talk response may not need to go back (I expect this would be pretty rare) or a Ruby Talk post should also appear on the Nuby list. Adding and removing the [NUBY] handles both of these, as needed.

This keeps all the tricky cases handled on the Ruby Talk side, which seems best. Well, those are my thoughts, at any rate.

James Edward Gray II

···

On Sep 8, 2004, at 8:52 AM, David Ross wrote:

40

Zach Dennis wrote:

I am trying to get the following to work:

dir = Dir.new( d ) if( File.directory?( d=$*.shift ) )
puts d
puts dir

d always outputs correctly, but dir always outputs nil. I tried

puts d if( File.directory?( d=$*.shift ) )

and d is outputted correctly. Why doesn't my first statement work?

Thanks,

Zach

Please ignore...i realized I was passing in a nonexistent directory.

Zach