Ruby momentum?

I'm an outsider to the Ruby community. I've used it a time or two,
mostly to get familiar with it. I've read part of the PickAxe, but my
job (Java) keeps me in Java-land. I'm wondering what those of you using
Ruby feel are Ruby's chances of taking off. At least to the extent that
you could begin to see it used in places where J2EE is being used
currently. I know this is already happening. But my question is more
with regards to the future. Is something like RoR worth learning in the
context of being able to actually put it to use in the future? I know
I'm asking for conjecture. And that's all I expect. But not being
actively involved in the community, I get no sense as to how much
momentum Ruby has, and thus what the chances of it becoming more
commonly used, are.

I know Java has a head start and has the backing of many large
corporations, so it's perhaps not an apt comparison to make. But I like
the language. And I like the philosophy of Ruby. To what extent this is
translating into projects and jobs, however, I have no idea.

Preston

Preston Crawford wrote:

I know Java has a head start and has the backing of many large
corporations, so it's perhaps not an apt comparison to make. But I
like the language. And I like the philosophy of Ruby. To what extent
this is translating into projects and jobs, however, I have no idea.

You might want to learn COBOL. More transactions are processed by COBOL programs than the entire number of transactions that occur over the internet. :wink:

Who knows maybe even this Java thing will take off one day.

···

--
J Lambert

For many people here Ruby already soars hight above where no other languages can reach ;-). I love C++ and use it professionally every day, but evening comes and tired after day's labor I get to my Ruby pet projects at home just to relax. And often a get more results in less time, let alone satisfaction.

I must mention that my day work involves quite a bit of Ruby as well :-).

Gennady.

···

On Jul 13, 2005, at 18:50, Preston Crawford wrote:

I'm an outsider to the Ruby community. I've used it a time or two,
mostly to get familiar with it. I've read part of the PickAxe, but my
job (Java) keeps me in Java-land. I'm wondering what those of you using
Ruby feel are Ruby's chances of taking off. At least to the extent that

Preston Crawford wrote:

I know Java has a head start and has the backing of many large corporations, so it's perhaps not an apt comparison to make. But I like the language. And I like the philosophy of Ruby. To what extent this is translating into projects and jobs, however, I have no idea.

Preston

I've been able to finagle some things and get Ruby instituted as the Preferred Scripting Language at my (admittedly small) shop. We don't do Java. There isn't any point for us. We _have_ had some .Net stuff worked up though, and I've managed to bring our main .Net guy over to the red. He seems to have more fun using it and for some reason doing ambitious thigs with Ruby doesn't seem to threaten him as much as doing the same things with .Net did.

I'm trying to move everything we do over to Ruby, but that will take some doing (and a managable spreadsheet-like GUI widget, which is an entirely diff'rent matter). I'm hoping that knocking out a couple of rails apps to replace existing clunkers will help.

I'm not sure if there are many big-time Ruby shops out there. I'm not sure it matters to me any more. Ruby will continue to be my language of choice and I'll continue to use it for my personal projects while I'm waiting for someone to hire me to work on theirs.

Preston Crawford wrote:

Is something like RoR worth learning in the context of being able to actually put it to use in the future?

Before I try to answer your question, a little background: I like to say I was "born and raised on Java." It was my first major programming language that I start using back in 1997 in college. All of my employment, including my current job, has had Java is the primary development language. Yet I'm now starting to hate Java.

Compared to Ruby, Java is incredibly verbose, there are just too many overly complex APIs, and when I program in it, I feel like my hands are tied. With Ruby I feel free.

I was first exposed to Ruby in early 2001, and I even attended (and presented at) the first International Ruby Conference. But as I said above my job was using Java, and I just didn't see much money-making potential in becoming a pure Ruby developer. Plus I had other real-life issues that pretty much took me away from the Ruby fold for a few years.

Fast forward to a few months ago: I hear all this buzz about Rails, take a look, and *BAM*, I'm reminded of how much I love Ruby.

So to finally answer your question: I think Ruby and Rails and many of the other cool Ruby technologies out now are totally worth learning. I have real confidence that the future of software development will be primarily in flexible, dynamic languages like Ruby.

Right now Rails is probably the number 1 way to make money with Ruby (the web is king after all), but I think it has really just started the revolution. It is bringing a lot of fresh blood into the Ruby community, and while every Rails developer may not expand into a full-blown Ruby developer, many will, and each new person will add that much more value to the community.

Before you know it will have a Rails equivalent in all kinds of domains:

- GUI programming.
- Audio processing.
- Video processing.
- Mathematics.
- Scientific domains.
- Game programming.
- Etc.

It is a great time to be a Ruby developer, and I think the time to get in is now, because all of us will eventually be known as the pioneers once everyone else jumps on the bandwagon.

Ryan

Preston Crawford wrote:

I know Java has a head start and has the backing of many large corporations, so it's perhaps not an apt comparison to make. But I like the language. And I like the philosophy of Ruby. To what extent this is translating into projects and jobs, however, I have no idea.

Sometime soon (next month?), O'Reilly is publishing Bruce Tate's new book "Beyond Java". I highly recommend you read it (or attend his presentation of the same name at one of the No Fluff Just Stuff symposiums). In there I think you will find persuasive arguments for learning something like Ruby.

Curt

In article <slrnddbh68.195.me@serpentor.cobrala>,

I'm an outsider to the Ruby community. I've used it a time or two,
mostly to get familiar with it. I've read part of the PickAxe, but my
job (Java) keeps me in Java-land. I'm wondering what those of you using
Ruby feel are Ruby's chances of taking off. At least to the extent that
you could begin to see it used in places where J2EE is being used
currently. I know this is already happening. But my question is more
with regards to the future. Is something like RoR worth learning in the
context of being able to actually put it to use in the future? I know
I'm asking for conjecture. And that's all I expect. But not being
actively involved in the community, I get no sense as to how much
momentum Ruby has, and thus what the chances of it becoming more
commonly used, are.

I know Java has a head start and has the backing of many large
corporations, so it's perhaps not an apt comparison to make. But I like
the language. And I like the philosophy of Ruby. To what extent this is
translating into projects and jobs, however, I have no idea.

_ I've gotten unsolicited inquiries from recruiters looking for
Ruby on Rails experience. Since my Ruby expertise is actually
pretty limited, I suspect there must be some demand for
experienced people. I would think that if you want a Ruby
job ROR is a must. I see it as being the equivalent for Ruby of
what cgi scripting was for perl in the late 90's.

_ Booker C. Bense

···

Preston Crawford <me@REMOVESPAMBLOCKprestoncrawford.com> wrote:

Hang onto your Original Pickaxe's, they'll be worth a bit soon :slight_smile:

Preston Crawford wrote:

I'm an outsider to the Ruby community. I've used it a time or two, mostly to get familiar with it. I've read part of the PickAxe, but my job (Java) keeps me in Java-land. I'm wondering what those of you using Ruby feel are Ruby's chances of taking off. At least to the extent that you could begin to see it used in places where J2EE is being used currently. I know this is already happening. But my question is more with regards to the future. Is something like RoR worth learning in the context of being able to actually put it to use in the future?

We are in development for a multi-million dollar system for a Fortune 1000 company. The backend of this system will utilize RoR heavily. The system utilizes a front-end java client, but we scrapped all J2EE / Hibernate plans for the backend when we did a small test between different backend solutions. The test was a small backend with web-functionality, database mapping, data processing, etc... with different Java solutions (standalone JSP/Hibernate), (standalone JSP/Java-Mysql adapter), (JBoss,J2EE/Hibernate/Tomcat) and then we tried Rails. The results were that in the days in took to complete the tests in Java, it took under a few hours with Ruby On Rails. From that point on we have been moving forward with Ruby, and Ruby on Rails. We will be moving into benchmarking and optimization in the next 2-4 weeks, I can keep the ML posted with benchmarks.

I know I'm asking for conjecture. And that's all I expect. But not being actively involved in the community, I get no sense as to how much momentum Ruby has, and thus what the chances of it becoming more commonly used, are.

At work I'm in a lucky position to pick the technology that works for our company and our customers. I have been using ruby for the past 2 years almost. I have used ruby for lots of odds and ends things during that time. As I get more verbosed in ruby as a language I find that I can do more and more things with ruby. I now...
   - use Ruby On Rails for internal web site development and customer web-site development
   - use ActiveRecord for database mapping even when no web interface is involved. This is a huge time saver!
   - use net/ssh to handle automating remote administration tasks for me
   - use win32ole to access the WScript (Windows Script Host) object model
   - use wxRuby to write timer/reminder programs for myself which alert me in 15 minutes before a meeting, appointment, etc...
   - used the socket library to write a customer's messenging system which will be used to allow multiple servers inside of an environment to communicate with one another with hardly any overhead.
   - use IRB sooo much, well IRB is the best tool in the world. There is no ther like it!
   - used JRuby to communicate ruby code to Java applications
   - write commandline utilities suite for 4D WebSTAR (Mac OSX Application)
   - use rubyscript2exe to make clickable installers, uninstallers, and applications

And the list keeps going. Ruby is my #1 tool of choice. As I continue to verse myself in Ruby and it's uses I will continue to see different arena's where I can use Ruby. This grows almost everyday.

Ruby is also a big time saver for me. I can write ruby code faster then any other language. Coworkers, employees and my boss have been pleased and surprised with the turnaround time I have for getting things done. Am I the best programmer in the world? Probably not (dont tell my employees that =), but I know how and when to use Ruby. 75% of our small development team now uses ruby on a daily basis, by choice. =)

You can only learn to make good decisions about when and how to use Ruby, by using Ruby.

I know Java has a head start and has the backing of many large corporations, so it's perhaps not an apt comparison to make.

Java is good for certain things. Java is not good for everything. Ruby is the same way. I just find that where these overlap Ruby usually wins the war! And yes this is even considering Eclipse and Intellityping!

But I like And I like the philosophy of Ruby.
the language.

Me to. =)

To what extent this is translating into projects and jobs, however, I have no idea.

I have no idea on this either. A year ago I was the only person I knew or could find in a 600,000 people city who knew what Ruby was. In the past 2 months I have found 10 people who know Ruby, plus a company which is know dictating Ruby On Rails as a doctrinal belief to it's employees, and that company is not the one I am at. Ruby is growing, people using ruby are what make ruby grow. As ruby usage and awareness grows it will provide itself with an environment which will allow itself to strengthen it's presence as a viable tool and that will allow it's community of users to survive throughout the fiscal year.

The only thing that will stop Ruby from growing is if people don't use ruby. If you use ruby, that is a +1 chance that Ruby will be used at a company; small, medium, large or huge later this year.

Zach

Preston Crawford wrote:

I'm wondering what those of you using
Ruby feel are Ruby's chances of taking off. At least to the extent that
you could begin to see it used in places where J2EE is being used
currently. I know this is already happening. But my question is more
with regards to the future. Is something like RoR worth learning in the
context of being able to actually put it to use in the future? I know
I'm asking for conjecture. And that's all I expect. But not being
actively involved in the community, I get no sense as to how much
momentum Ruby has, and thus what the chances of it becoming more
commonly used, are.

Hi Preston,

I think Ruby on Rails is at the same crossroads that Java was 10 years
ago.

Ten years ago, I switched camps and wholeheartedly joined the Java
initiative. Before doing that, I went through the painstaking process
of abandoning the mainframe/midrange technology by going for the C++/VB
one. But in the summer of 1995, I knew I had to jump ship again.

Fifteen years ago, me and some of my fellow developers grew tired and
disgusted with mainframes. Those behemoths were simply too enormous and
too brittle to allow for any reasonable course of developing even
fairly simple applications. So, we've switched to OO platform (first to
Smalltalk, and later on to C++).

But the 'DLL hell' made us equally disgusted. Soon it was time for a
change. After abandoning the mainframe legacy, we've adopted the 'DLL
hell' legacy of Microsoft. Along came Java (remember "the network is
the computer" slogan?) and we jumped right into it, swallowing it hook,
line and sinker, as the saying goes.

Today, 10 years later, we're disappointed (nay, shocked) to see Java
growing into an even bigger behemoth than any mainframe. Needless to
say, some of us are disgusted by the clunkiness of J2EE. Even worse
than that, the clunkiness of the J2EE-aftermarket is actually more
shocking. I've tried countless open-source frameworks that were
supposed to address and cover up J2EE's original lack of vision, but
came away utterly disgusted.

In the process, I've slowly grown absolutely alergic to XML, which I've
embraced enthusiastically at first. Today, I get violently sick
whenever I have to look at any XML-snippet.

For the past 5 years I've been impatiently waiting for something to
come along and point to the way beyond Java, beyond C#. I've even
developed my own frameworks to address the gap.

But the day I saw Rails, I knew that my wait was over. It addresses
elegantly all my grievances, and then some!

Yes, right now there are more naysayers than coolheaded people about
RoR. What I find hilarious is that all the arguments against RoR are
exactly the same as the arguments we were hearing against Java back in
the mid-to-late '90s. And these same objections are now mostly coming
from the Java camp!

Remeber when the corporate technologists were chiming against Java as
being too slow? Can it scale? And so on.

One thing is certain -- Java/J2EE is destined to go the way of the
mainframes. No, these techologies will never go away. But, they are now
being delegated to the legacy status. Read: necessary evil.

RoR community will grow rapidly. Then, once it reaches certain critical
mass, it will specialize in bridging the gap between the legacy
technologies (i.e. J2EE, .NET) and the modern platforms. The same thing
happened with Java in the '90s, and now with .NET (the enormous push
for 'data exchange' via XML and XML Schema, perpetrated by Microsoft).

There is a huge volume of business logic burried inside the J2EE/.NET
code worldwide. This logic will have to be somehow salvaged in order to
be utilized in the modern, agile platforms. RoR will serve in the
future as a bridge, as a 'glue', integrating everything together
(remember when Java/VB were being touted as being one such 'glue'?)

The software development community will (again) split into 2 camps on
the issue of RoR vs. Legacy. This split is inevitable, and it always
occurs, whenever there is a revolutionary breakthrough. It happened
when we abandoned mainframes. It happened when we abandoned the 'DLL
hell'. It is happening now, when we're slowly but surely abandoning the
XML-based legacy systems.

Basically, one camp (arguably always a bigger one) will consist of
those hard-core nuts-and-bolts technologists. These are the people who
delight in going into the engine room, getting down on their knees with
screwdrivers in their hands, and tightening the 'screws' on their
legacy platform of choice. This is what I call the 'How' crowd.

The other camp will consist of developers who are first and foremost
interested in delivering quality products. In other words, they know
they are in the business of selling experiences, not nuts and bolts and
screens and reports and push buttons. This is what I call the 'What'
crowd.

The 'What' crowd is the one that always makes progress. They don't care
too much about polishing the done deal. They only keep pressing for the
ever higher quality.

And this is where RoR gives all of us the best chances.

Ryan Leavengood wrote:

Before you know it will have a Rails equivalent in all kinds of domains:

- Game programming.

Getting there with ruby/gosu. See http://www.raschke.de/julian/gosu/ -- it isn't entirely general and does not do 3D (though it uses graphics hardware acceleration via the 3D APIs heavily), but it certainly feels like Ruby to me.

I've used it for 48 hour game development compos and it didn't get into the way at all.

That aside, regarding learning Ruby: Lots of languages are adapting Ruby ideas right now, Python is taking the blocks, Perl6 is taking lots of small things like Ruby's case equality operator and C# 2.0 introduces block-like constructs and some of Ruby's standard library. (ArrayList.ConvertAll, ArrayList.FindAll etc. -- just search for Ruby at the MSDN weblogs and you will see that there are lots of positive postings about it even there.)

So even if it turns out that you won't be able to use Ruby itself on a future project you will likely still be able to apply knowledge that you got via Ruby to other languages.

Right now Rails is probably the number 1 way to make money with Ruby
(the web is king after all), but I think it has really just started the
revolution. It is bringing a lot of fresh blood into the Ruby community,
and while every Rails developer may not expand into a full-blown Ruby
developer, many will, and each new person will add that much more value
to the community.

We actually just yesterday started a list on the Rails wiki in order
to find out how many people are actually making a living with Ruby on
Rails. And boy, quite a few already do! There are 110+ people from ~20
countries that are "...earning a substantial or full paycheck from
working professionally with Ruby on Rails":

http://wiki.rubyonrails.com/rails/show/WorkingProfessionallyWithRails

And with 5,000+ orders of the Rails book, I'm pretty sure that list is
going to grow rapidly through the rest of the year. We're scheduled to
hit OSCON, JAOO, EuroOSCON, and other conferences with presentations
and keynotes to help raise awareness even further.

···

--
David Heinemeier Hansson
http://www.loudthinking.com -- Broadcasting Brain
http://www.basecamphq.com -- Online project management
http://www.backpackit.com -- Personal information manager
http://www.rubyonrails.com -- Web-application framework

Jon A. Lambert wrote:

Preston Crawford wrote:

I know Java has a head start and has the backing of many large
corporations, so it's perhaps not an apt comparison to make. But I
like the language. And I like the philosophy of Ruby. To what extent
this is translating into projects and jobs, however, I have no idea.

You might want to learn COBOL.

Hey, who wants to start a COBOL on Rails project? :slight_smile:

···

--
J Lambert

--
Alan Garrison
Cronosys, LLC <http://www.cronosys.com>
Phone: 216-221-4600 ext 308

Lyndon Samson said:

Hang onto your Original Pickaxe's, they'll be worth a bit soon :slight_smile:

Especially when they are signed by the authors like mine is, muwhahahahaha.

Ryan

Zach Dennis wrote:

The only thing that will stop Ruby from growing is if people don't use
ruby. If you use ruby, that is a +1 chance that Ruby will be used at a
company; small, medium, large or huge later this year.

Very true. For larger companies there are typically some PHB's that
look at the current popular technology trends and hop on those
bandwagons. "Let's see...what's the other guy using? Well, if it's good
enough for them we can certainly use it!" Especially since the
technology spending is still probably overall nowhere near where it was
pre-Y2K. Leaders don't want to spend money on hardware, software, or
development/support manhours unless absolutely necessary and proven.
Hopefully stories like yours where Fortune 1000 companies start to
adopt Ruby will catch on and the domino effect will take place.

At my small company I have employed Ruby for everything under the sun
(from admin scripts to office automation to GUI apps) and will likely
replace more old ASP/IIS functions with Rails/Apache as the year winds
up. But at larger companies sometimes it's more difficult to throw the
switch. I recall back in 1997 working for a major cellular company as
IT Field Manager of one of their call centers. Then I started
installing Linux boxes running MySQL to test a replacement for some old
clunky help desk app they had already in place. That didn't go over too
well if memory serves correct :slight_smile: Even bringing up a Linux box on the
LAN set off red flags. "Linux, what the hell is that? We use Solaris on
Sun boxes after all."

Hi --

···

On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 neutralm@gmail.com wrote:

For the past 5 years I've been impatiently waiting for something to
come along and point to the way beyond Java, beyond C#. I've even
developed my own frameworks to address the gap.

But the day I saw Rails, I knew that my wait was over. It addresses
elegantly all my grievances, and then some!

Let's give a tiny little nod to Ruby too :slight_smile:

David

--
David A. Black
dblack@wobblini.net

I can't wait to use that library. I sure hope an OS X version is in the works...

James Edward Gray II

···

On Jul 13, 2005, at 10:06 PM, Florian Groß wrote:

Ryan Leavengood wrote:

Before you know it will have a Rails equivalent in all kinds of domains:
- Game programming.

Getting there with ruby/gosu. See http://www.raschke.de/julian/gosu/ -- it isn't entirely general and does not do 3D (though it uses graphics hardware acceleration via the 3D APIs heavily), but it certainly feels like Ruby to me.

anything planned for OOPSLA?

···

On 7/14/05, David Heinemeier Hansson <david.heinemeier@gmail.com> wrote:

> Right now Rails is probably the number 1 way to make money with Ruby
> (the web is king after all), but I think it has really just started the
> revolution. It is bringing a lot of fresh blood into the Ruby community,
> and while every Rails developer may not expand into a full-blown Ruby
> developer, many will, and each new person will add that much more value
> to the community.

We actually just yesterday started a list on the Rails wiki in order
to find out how many people are actually making a living with Ruby on
Rails. And boy, quite a few already do! There are 110+ people from ~20
countries that are "...earning a substantial or full paycheck from
working professionally with Ruby on Rails":

http://wiki.rubyonrails.com/rails/show/WorkingProfessionallyWithRails

And with 5,000+ orders of the Rails book, I'm pretty sure that list is
going to grow rapidly through the rest of the year. We're scheduled to
hit OSCON, JAOO, EuroOSCON, and other conferences with presentations
and keynotes to help raise awareness even further.
--
David Heinemeier Hansson
http://www.loudthinking.com -- Broadcasting Brain
http://www.basecamphq.com -- Online project management
http://www.backpackit.com -- Personal information manager
http://www.rubyonrails.com -- Web-application framework

David Heinemeier Hansson wrote:

And with 5,000+ orders of the Rails book, I'm pretty sure that list is
going to grow rapidly through the rest of the year. We're scheduled to

Five thousand! Wow, that's a huge number, indeed.
Congratulations! 5000 sold - and the book is is just being printed (as far as I know).

To everybody involved in getting this book published: Thanks a lot!

Happy rubying - on Rails or otherwise

Stephan

Alan Garrison wrote:

Hey, who wants to start a COBOL on Rails project? :slight_smile:

Wait until they finish Apache's mod_cobol first.

And wouldn't it be "COBOL via Canals"?

mathew