Hold on, this post takes a few twists and turns. Consider it an exercise
in non-linear thinking or perhaps web-based thinking where you end up
following links to pages and finding other interesting links which you
then follow to other pages not knowing quite where you’ll end
up…brainstorming.
It’s a Ruby based cross platform GUI builder/toolkit - where 'platform’
here includes Windows (using native DLL calls), Linux (using Tk) and web
browsers. The same code can be used to target all three which is
interesting… There are other cross-platform GUI toolkits out there
(like Tk, WxWindows and to some extent Qt) but I don’t think any of these
others include the ability to run your GUI in a browser.
There was a recent thread of discussion on my local Linux user’s group
mailing list about what the best programming language for teaching new
programmers would be (specifically the originator of the thread was asking
if PHP would be a good beginner’s language) - I of course jumped in with
Ruby, but the PHP contingent offered a compelling reason for their
language (I really don’t think PHP would be a good first language, but
leaving the language issues aside) by making the point that it’s very easy
to create GUIs in PHP where the GUI runs in a browser. Their point being
that new programmers would like to be able to easily create GUI elements
like buttons, etc (I don’t totally agree, but their argument does seem to
have some merit) so they can quickly see some interesting results and of
course they felt that PHP was the quickest route to get there because you
don’t have to worry about having some specific GUI library installed, the
GUI is composed of HTML and it ‘runs’ in the browser.
Now this got me to thinking about Locana since it is apparently easy to
create a browser-based GUI with it.
…then, the other day I read something about how KDE and GNOME are now
using SVG to produce their icons - the advantage being that they can make
their icons any size (scalable)… and of course that got me to looking a
bit at SVG. So would it be possible to create SVG-based GUIs that 'run’
in a browser and have this SVG-based toolkit as one of Ruby’s built-in GUI
toolkits? Would this be a coup for Ruby in the web-space? (could
this sort of thing be considered a ‘killer app’ for Ruby? - I truely don’t
know, I’m looking for opinions. I kind of think it would be very
powerful, but I don’t have enough in-depth knowledge about SVG yet to
know for sure).
Phil
···
–
"Or perhaps the truth is less interesting than the facts?"
Amy Weiss (accusing theregister.co.uk of engaging in ‘tabloid journalism’)
Senior VP, Communications
Recording Industry Association of America
This came up on -talk a bit longer then a year ago - back then this link was
pasted by someone which has some very nice ‘ooo ahhh’ stuff http://www.kevlindev.com/gui/index.htm
AFAIK, for an SVG gui to be useful it would need to handle events. This means
you either need to run it inside a mozilla browser with SVG support compiled
in or you use the adobe plugin (which means you use javascript) or you would
need something else that could render the SVG (something like Batik). The
adobe plugin hasn’t been updated in a very long time which makes me wonder if
Adobe is still keen on this. Sadly, what is supported in the Adobe plugin is
different then what will work in Mozilla or IE. Life on the bleeding edge is
full of compromise
Signed,
Holden Glova
···
On Thu, 06 Feb 2003 22:10, Phil Tomson wrote:
Hold on, this post takes a few twists and turns. Consider it an exercise
in non-linear thinking or perhaps web-based thinking where you end up
following links to pages and finding other interesting links which you
then follow to other pages not knowing quite where you’ll end
up…brainstorming.
It’s a Ruby based cross platform GUI builder/toolkit - where ‘platform’
here includes Windows (using native DLL calls), Linux (using Tk) and web
browsers. The same code can be used to target all three which is
interesting… There are other cross-platform GUI toolkits out there
(like Tk, WxWindows and to some extent Qt) but I don’t think any of these
others include the ability to run your GUI in a browser.
There was a recent thread of discussion on my local Linux user’s group
mailing list about what the best programming language for teaching new
programmers would be (specifically the originator of the thread was asking
if PHP would be a good beginner’s language) - I of course jumped in with
Ruby, but the PHP contingent offered a compelling reason for their
language (I really don’t think PHP would be a good first language, but
leaving the language issues aside) by making the point that it’s very easy
to create GUIs in PHP where the GUI runs in a browser. Their point being
that new programmers would like to be able to easily create GUI elements
like buttons, etc (I don’t totally agree, but their argument does seem to
have some merit) so they can quickly see some interesting results and of
course they felt that PHP was the quickest route to get there because you
don’t have to worry about having some specific GUI library installed, the
GUI is composed of HTML and it ‘runs’ in the browser.
Now this got me to thinking about Locana since it is apparently easy to
create a browser-based GUI with it.
…then, the other day I read something about how KDE and GNOME are now
using SVG to produce their icons - the advantage being that they can make
their icons any size (scalable)… and of course that got me to looking a
bit at SVG. So would it be possible to create SVG-based GUIs that ‘run’
in a browser and have this SVG-based toolkit as one of Ruby’s built-in GUI
toolkits? Would this be a coup for Ruby in the web-space? (could
this sort of thing be considered a ‘killer app’ for Ruby? - I truely don’t
know, I’m looking for opinions. I kind of think it would be very
powerful, but I don’t have enough in-depth knowledge about SVG yet to
know for sure).
i thought about this too. being lead to the GUtopIa project, i’m always
considering these angles. (by the way, the project is not dead, just on hold
til i get my my accounting app to a 1.0 version)
an SVG GUI does sound very tempting, but it dosen’t have built-in ways of
interacting via text, much less more advanced elements like drop down lists.
with any luck this stuff will be added in the future. but for now this kind
of “slick” interface looks only to be available via macromedia’s flash mx.
but of course that’s proprietary, nor have i seen anything on the ins and
outs of working with flash mx with ruby (i suspect it is complicated).
one of the two major plans of GUtopIa is to build a pure Ruby GUI. the current
plan is to base it on the GGI library, but i would very much like to add
seemless SVG support if possible. i think that would be very cool to have.
-transami
p.s. shameless cry for help: if anyone would like to build GGI binding for
Ruby please let me know, i’ve started it based on Ruby/DL but have ways to
go, and as mentioned above don’t have the time at the moment.
···
On Thursday 06 February 2003 02:10 am, Phil Tomson wrote:
…then, the other day I read something about how KDE and GNOME are now
using SVG to produce their icons - the advantage being that they can make
their icons any size (scalable)… and of course that got me to looking a
bit at SVG. So would it be possible to create SVG-based GUIs that ‘run’
in a browser and have this SVG-based toolkit as one of Ruby’s built-in GUI
toolkits? Would this be a coup for Ruby in the web-space? (could
this sort of thing be considered a ‘killer app’ for Ruby? - I truely don’t
know, I’m looking for opinions. I kind of think it would be very
powerful, but I don’t have enough in-depth knowledge about SVG yet to
know for sure).
I have been working vigorously on the next release of Locana. A lot of very nice features are coming. I felt I needed to optimize the relationship between Locana and the native GUI with the next release. As a result, I had to rewrite of a lot of code and this took longer than expected. The next release will be much more efficient and much more object oriented. My goal is to release ASAP but it will likely take me a few weeks to get everything cleaned up. I have the Tk binding mostly working again.
My goal with Locana was to write the best GUI interface I could (easy and fun to work with) and then port that interface to any platform that I wanted my software (applets) to run on. The second goal was to be able to install only Ruby with Locana and have my applications run on any GUI/toolkit that is currently installed or native to the platform so that the end user does not need to install a GUI toolkit unless they want to take advantage of what that toolkit has to offer. As a result, I implemented a binding for MS Windows that calls DLL’s directly. I implemented a Tk binding because I felt it covered the most other possible platforms. I plan to write a binding for GTK for linux and FreeBSD because I feel it is the most widely used GUI toolkit for linux. I also implemented an HTML binding (this will not be a part of the next release because it needs to be rewritten) because I wanted to allow end users the ability to run my applets without installing Locana or Ruby.
Hopefully the binding interface will be documented enough to allow new bindings to be easily added.
I hope this helps, Michael
Phil Tomson wrote:
···
Hold on, this post takes a few twists and turns. Consider it an exercise
in non-linear thinking or perhaps web-based thinking where you end up
following links to pages and finding other interesting links which you
then follow to other pages not knowing quite where you’ll end
up…brainstorming.
It’s a Ruby based cross platform GUI builder/toolkit - where ‘platform’
here includes Windows (using native DLL calls), Linux (using Tk) and web
browsers. The same code can be used to target all three which is
interesting… There are other cross-platform GUI toolkits out there
(like Tk, WxWindows and to some extent Qt) but I don’t think any of these
others include the ability to run your GUI in a browser.
There was a recent thread of discussion on my local Linux user’s group
mailing list about what the best programming language for teaching new
programmers would be (specifically the originator of the thread was asking
if PHP would be a good beginner’s language) - I of course jumped in with
Ruby, but the PHP contingent offered a compelling reason for their
language (I really don’t think PHP would be a good first language, but
leaving the language issues aside) by making the point that it’s very easy
to create GUIs in PHP where the GUI runs in a browser. Their point being
that new programmers would like to be able to easily create GUI elements
like buttons, etc (I don’t totally agree, but their argument does seem to
have some merit) so they can quickly see some interesting results and of
course they felt that PHP was the quickest route to get there because you
don’t have to worry about having some specific GUI library installed, the
GUI is composed of HTML and it ‘runs’ in the browser.
Now this got me to thinking about Locana since it is apparently easy to
create a browser-based GUI with it.
…then, the other day I read something about how KDE and GNOME are now
using SVG to produce their icons - the advantage being that they can make
their icons any size (scalable)… and of course that got me to looking a
bit at SVG. So would it be possible to create SVG-based GUIs that ‘run’
in a browser and have this SVG-based toolkit as one of Ruby’s built-in GUI
toolkits? Would this be a coup for Ruby in the web-space? (could
this sort of thing be considered a ‘killer app’ for Ruby? - I truely don’t
know, I’m looking for opinions. I kind of think it would be very
powerful, but I don’t have enough in-depth knowledge about SVG yet to
know for sure).
>>
>> ....then, the other day I read something about how KDE and GNOME are
>> now
>> using SVG to produce their icons - the advantage being that they can
>> make
>> their icons any size (scalable)... and of course that got me to
>> looking a
>> bit at SVG. So would it be possible to create SVG-based GUIs that
>> 'run'
>> in a browser and have this SVG-based toolkit as one of Ruby's
>> built-in GUI
>> toolkits? Would this be a coup for Ruby in the web-space? (could
>> this sort of thing be considered a 'killer app' for Ruby? - I truely
>> don't
>> know, I'm looking for opinions. I kind of think it would be very
>> powerful, but I don't have enough in-depth knowledge about SVG yet to
>> know for sure).
>>
>> Phil
>
> Hiya Phil,
>
> This came up on -talk a bit longer then a year ago - back then this
> link was
> pasted by someone which has some very nice 'ooo ahhh' stuff
> http://www.kevlindev.com/gui/index.htm
>
> AFAIK, for an SVG gui to be useful it would need to handle events.
> This means
> you either need to run it inside a mozilla browser with SVG support
> compiled
> in or you use the adobe plugin (which means you use javascript) or you
> would
> need something else that could render the SVG (something like Batik).
> The
> adobe plugin hasn't been updated in a very long time which makes me
> wonder if
> Adobe is still keen on this. Sadly, what is supported in the Adobe
> plugin is
> different then what will work in Mozilla or IE. Life on the bleeding
> edge is
> full of compromise :)
Phil et al,
I agree with your assessment that it would be a killer Ruby application
to be able to create browser delivered interfaces using a vector based
renderer (rather than HTML). For the reasons outlined above I don’t
think that SVG is up to it…but Macromedia Flash IS up to it. So,
after getting FreeRIDE to the next level, I plan on continuing my
efforts to build a complete Flash generator for Ruby (pure Ruby). THAT
will differentiate Ruby from PHP or anything else.
Anyone want to participate?
-rich
···
On Thursday, February 6, 2003, at 04:24 AM, Holden Glova wrote:
I already use Flash as an interface to ~all~ of my programs. Ruby, OCaml,
PHP…
I don’t think you could call it a ‘binding’ - since it’s more like
inter-process communication, but if you can wait a day (today’s too busy),
then I’ll post a link to the prototype SWF that I use.
Rich Kilmer and I discussed this concept a while ago, but both became very
busy.
Flash MX the Authoring environment is proprietary, but the SWF format is
open. There are already several bindings to create SWF files without paying
Macromedia a cent.
I feel Flash is the way to go, since Macromedia is already wanting to give
developers the ability to create applications in Flash… Macromedia is
already designing Flash to be cross-platform (the Flash 6 player is out for
Linux, Windows, and Mac)… and Macromedia is already marketing and
distributing the player required to view Flash content…
When I think of how easy it is to leverage the fact that there is already a
~huge~ company behind the product spending their money to market, develop
and distribute the player…
-Rich
P.s. - As for a ‘first’ language to learn… Ruby is the easiest for basics,
but quickly gets out of hand… Flash offers quick graphics, but also
quickly gets out of control… just my .02
···
----- Original Message -----
From: “Richard Kilmer” rich@infoether.com
To: “ruby-talk ML” ruby-talk@ruby-lang.org
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: locana, SVG, cross-platform GUI meanderings…
On Thursday, February 6, 2003, at 04:24 AM, Holden Glova wrote:
…then, the other day I read something about how KDE and GNOME are
now
using SVG to produce their icons - the advantage being that they can
make
their icons any size (scalable)… and of course that got me to
looking a
bit at SVG. So would it be possible to create SVG-based GUIs that
‘run’
in a browser and have this SVG-based toolkit as one of Ruby’s
built-in GUI
toolkits? Would this be a coup for Ruby in the web-space? (could
this sort of thing be considered a ‘killer app’ for Ruby? - I truely
don’t
know, I’m looking for opinions. I kind of think it would be very
powerful, but I don’t have enough in-depth knowledge about SVG yet to
know for sure).
Phil
Hiya Phil,
This came up on -talk a bit longer then a year ago - back then this
link was
pasted by someone which has some very nice ‘ooo ahhh’ stuff KevLinDev - GUI
AFAIK, for an SVG gui to be useful it would need to handle events.
This means
you either need to run it inside a mozilla browser with SVG support
compiled
in or you use the adobe plugin (which means you use javascript) or you
would
need something else that could render the SVG (something like Batik).
The
adobe plugin hasn’t been updated in a very long time which makes me
wonder if
Adobe is still keen on this. Sadly, what is supported in the Adobe
plugin is
different then what will work in Mozilla or IE. Life on the bleeding
edge is
full of compromise
Phil et al,
I agree with your assessment that it would be a killer Ruby application
to be able to create browser delivered interfaces using a vector based
renderer (rather than HTML). For the reasons outlined above I don’t
think that SVG is up to it…but Macromedia Flash IS up to it. So,
after getting FreeRIDE to the next level, I plan on continuing my
efforts to build a complete Flash generator for Ruby (pure Ruby). THAT
will differentiate Ruby from PHP or anything else.
I agree with your assessment that it would be a killer Ruby application
to be able to create browser delivered interfaces using a vector based
renderer (rather than HTML). For the reasons outlined above I don’t
think that SVG is up to it…but Macromedia Flash IS up to it. So,
after getting FreeRIDE to the next level, I plan on continuing my
efforts to build a complete Flash generator for Ruby (pure Ruby). THAT
will differentiate Ruby from PHP or anything else.
I agree with your assessment that it would be a killer Ruby
application to be able to create browser delivered interfaces using a
vector based renderer (rather than HTML). For the reasons outlined
above I don’t think that SVG is up to it…but Macromedia Flash IS
up to it. So, after getting FreeRIDE to the next level, I plan on
continuing my efforts to build a complete Flash generator for Ruby
(pure Ruby). THAT will differentiate Ruby from PHP or anything else.
Anyone want to participate?
-rich
For historical reference, this reminds me of a somewhat similar
discussion that started in this thread:
On Thursday, February 6, 2003, at 04:24 AM, Holden Glova wrote:
…then, the other day I read something about how KDE and GNOME are
now
using SVG to produce their icons - the advantage being that they can
make
their icons any size (scalable)… and of course that got me to
looking a
bit at SVG. So would it be possible to create SVG-based GUIs that
‘run’
in a browser and have this SVG-based toolkit as one of Ruby’s
built-in GUI
toolkits? Would this be a coup for Ruby in the web-space? (could
this sort of thing be considered a ‘killer app’ for Ruby? - I truely
don’t
know, I’m looking for opinions. I kind of think it would be very
powerful, but I don’t have enough in-depth knowledge about SVG yet to
know for sure).
Phil
Hiya Phil,
This came up on -talk a bit longer then a year ago - back then this
link was
pasted by someone which has some very nice ‘ooo ahhh’ stuff KevLinDev - GUI
AFAIK, for an SVG gui to be useful it would need to handle events.
This means
you either need to run it inside a mozilla browser with SVG support
compiled
in or you use the adobe plugin (which means you use javascript) or you
would
need something else that could render the SVG (something like Batik).
The
adobe plugin hasn’t been updated in a very long time which makes me
wonder if
Adobe is still keen on this. Sadly, what is supported in the Adobe
plugin is
different then what will work in Mozilla or IE. Life on the bleeding
edge is
full of compromise
Phil et al,
I agree with your assessment that it would be a killer Ruby application
to be able to create browser delivered interfaces using a vector based
renderer (rather than HTML). For the reasons outlined above I don’t
think that SVG is up to it…but Macromedia Flash IS up to it. So,
after getting FreeRIDE to the next level, I plan on continuing my
efforts to build a complete Flash generator for Ruby (pure Ruby). THAT
will differentiate Ruby from PHP or anything else.
Anyone want to participate?
Hmmmm… But Flash isn’t open as SVG is.
So SVG doesn’t have things like pull-down menus? What if what was
generated was a mix of SVG and HTML (which does AFAIK have pulldown
menus).
Phil
“Or perhaps the truth is less interesting than the facts?”
Amy Weiss (accusing theregister.co.uk of engaging in ‘tabloid journalism’)
Senior VP, Communications
Recording Industry Association of America
bit at SVG. So would it be possible to create SVG-based GUIs that
[…]
Phil
Hiya Phil,
AFAIK, for an SVG gui to be useful it would need to handle events.
[…]
Phil et al,
I agree with your assessment that it would be a killer Ruby application
to be able to create browser delivered interfaces using a vector based
renderer (rather than HTML). For the reasons outlined above I don’t
think that SVG is up to it…but Macromedia Flash IS up to it. So,
I feel Flash is the way to go, since Macromedia is already wanting to give
developers the ability to create applications in Flash… Macromedia is
already designing Flash to be cross-platform (the Flash 6 player is out for
Linux, Windows, and Mac)… and Macromedia is already marketing and
distributing the player required to view Flash content…
When I think of how easy it is to leverage the fact that there is already a
~huge~ company behind the product spending their money to market, develop
and distribute the player…
I don’t see why Flash is so cool when you can already do the same stuff
it does with a decent web browser cough mozilla cough. Well, ok, so
I do, its because IE went and implemented all these evil non-standard
things, and didn’t bother to implement the really cool standard ones.
Gecko is open, Gecko is free, and Gecko is an amazing application
development framework.
On Thursday, February 6, 2003, at 04:24 AM, Holden Glova wrote:
[…]
bit at SVG. So would it be possible to create SVG-based GUIs that
[…]
Phil
Hiya Phil,
AFAIK, for an SVG gui to be useful it would need to handle events.
[…]
Phil et al,
I agree with your assessment that it would be a killer Ruby application
to be able to create browser delivered interfaces using a vector based
renderer (rather than HTML). For the reasons outlined above I don’t
think that SVG is up to it…but Macromedia Flash IS up to it. So,
No. And I know that folks on the Linux side of things tend to hate Flash
and therefore avoid it.
Phil
“Or perhaps the truth is less interesting than the facts?”
Amy Weiss (accusing theregister.co.uk of engaging in ‘tabloid journalism’)
Senior VP, Communications
Recording Industry Association of America
=20
Hmmmm… But Flash isn’t open as SVG is.
=20
So SVG doesn’t have things like pull-down menus? What if what was=20
generated was a mix of SVG and HTML (which does AFAIK have pulldown=20
menus).
=2E.. but Gecko can do it with XBL…
I don’t see why Flash is so cool when you can already do the same stuff
it does with a decent web browser cough mozilla cough. Well, ok, so
I do, its because IE went and implemented all these evil non-standard
things, and didn’t bother to implement the really cool standard ones.
Gecko is open, Gecko is free, and Gecko is an amazing application
development framework.
This is interesting. Is this related to the XUL for customizing Mozilla
stuff? There has been a lot of talk lately about Mozilla becoming a
platform in it’s own right. There’s a new O’Reilly book out called
“Developing applications with Mozilla” (or something close to that).
Phil
“Or perhaps the truth is less interesting than the facts?”
Amy Weiss (accusing theregister.co.uk of engaging in ‘tabloid journalism’)
Senior VP, Communications
Recording Industry Association of America
bit at SVG. So would it be possible to create SVG-based GUIs that
[…]
Phil
Hiya Phil,
AFAIK, for an SVG gui to be useful it would need to handle events.
[…]
Phil et al,
I agree with your assessment that it would be a killer Ruby application
to be able to create browser delivered interfaces using a vector based
renderer (rather than HTML). For the reasons outlined above I don’t
think that SVG is up to it…but Macromedia Flash IS up to it. So,
No. And I know that folks on the Linux side of things tend to hate Flash
and therefore avoid it.
I have mixed feelings. It may not be an open
standard, but it’s widespread and so on. It’s in the
same league IMO with PDF and Postscript and (to a
lesser extent) RTF.
Besides the fact it’s not open, is there any other
reason Linux people hate Flash? My friend hates it,
but he hates LOTS of things.
Hal
···
----- Original Message -----
From: “Phil Tomson” ptkwt@shell1.aracnet.com
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ruby
To: “ruby-talk ML” ruby-talk@ruby-lang.org
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: locana, SVG, cross-platform GUI meanderings…
This is interesting. Is this related to the XUL for customizing Mozilla
stuff? There has been a lot of talk lately about Mozilla becoming a
platform in it’s own right. There’s a new O’Reilly book out called
“Developing applications with Mozilla” (or something close to that).
I’ve never seen it, but recently I heard that even hardcore Mozilla users
are getting fed up with the lack of stability and are turning to a bird
rising from the ashes. That’ll be the second bird I’ll introduce today:
Phoenix. (Gentoo is a fast penguin btw.) Phoenix is supposedly based on
Gecho but without the Mozilla bloat. http://www.mozilla.org/projects/phoenix/
Yep! The “backend” of mozilla is written in C++, and the C++ code is
exposed via XPCOM to whatever binding language you choose (mozilla uses
JavaScript, there are also Perl and Python bindings). XUL is just
mozilla’s UI format, it has buttons, menubars, frames, etc, etc.
I don’t see why Flash is so cool when you can already do the same stuff
it does with a decent web browser cough mozilla cough. Well, ok, so
I do, its because IE went and implemented all these evil non-standard
things, and didn’t bother to implement the really cool standard ones.
Gecko is open, Gecko is free, and Gecko is an amazing application
development framework.
This is interesting. Is this related to the XUL for customizing Mozilla
stuff? There has been a lot of talk lately about Mozilla becoming a
platform in it’s own right. There’s a new O’Reilly book out called
“Developing applications with Mozilla” (or something close to that).
No. And I know that folks on the Linux side of things tend to hate
Flash
and therefore avoid it.
I have mixed feelings. It may not be an open
standard, but it’s widespread and so on. It’s in the
same league IMO with PDF and Postscript and (to a
lesser extent) RTF.
Besides the fact it’s not open, is there any other
reason Linux people hate Flash? My friend hates it,
but he hates LOTS of things.
Hal
I wonder sometimes if ‘linux’ users ‘hate’ anything that comes from a
company. Oh well… to each his own.
I’d be interested in a list of what’s wrong with Flash… most of the lists
people have were erased with Flash MX.
I might be wrong… I’m not sure what you mean when you say - open…
… and there are no fees…
Is a licensing fee required for access to the Macromedia Flash file format
(SWF)?
No fees are required for access to the Macromedia Flash file format (SWF)
or for the creation of products based on the SWF format. SWF files can be
created with many leading software packages, including Macromedia’s Flash,
FreeHand, Fireworks, and Generator, as well as third-party tools.
(from: http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/open/licensing/fileformat/faq.html
)
Maybe you mean that you’d have to pay to make money off of MM’s product…
I’d agree with you there. They do have comercial licenses that cost money.
My dislike of flash is that it doesn’t build on FreeBSD, unless I use
the Linux ABI, which means I have to download and install a bunch of
Linux libraries (which really is trivial, portupgrade -N linux_base),
but then I have to use a Linux browser, which means I can’t modify said
browser (namely phoenix) because I’d need a linux box to compile it.
Also, I’ve only seen one useable flash site, the rest just annoy me with
eye-candy, and block navigation (which is especially annoying when
using w3m, as I often do).
