I would like to learn Ruby so I am looking at getting "Programming
Ruby". I am also looking at converting stuff to RoR, so I was looking
at getting "Agile Web Development with Rails".
Would those be good?
Robert
Hi,
Programming Ruby is good.
You can see the 1st edition online.
http://www.rubycentral.com/book/
I haven't read "Agile Web Development with Rails" yet.
Harry
···
On 3/12/07, Robert Hicks <sigzero@gmail.com> wrote:
I would like to learn Ruby so I am looking at getting "Programming
Ruby". I am also looking at converting stuff to RoR, so I was looking
at getting "Agile Web Development with Rails".Would those be good?
Robert
--
Japanese Ruby List Subjects in English
I have both. My personal opinion, and I am biased, is that
the ruby book is very good. I (still) often use it for reference.
The Rails book well ... I think a disadvantage _is_ that it is
very speficic to rails. I often saw people asking ruby
questions, which lead me to the FIRM opinion, that everyone that
really wants to use rails, needs to learn ruby too. (Doesnt
have to learn _everything_ but must understand basic stuff,
such as :symbols, hashes arrays AND be able to use
them. Oh and of course, irb too... on IRC it happens too often
that people on rails dont know irb, and it can
be frustrating to tutor people that are only, mostly interested
in rails)
Anyway to your questions, Programming Ruby is definitely worth it.
And the RoR book probably only when you need to use RoR too 
···
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Yes.
···
On 3/11/07, Robert Hicks <sigzero@gmail.com> wrote:
Would those be good?
--
Avdi
I'm still pretty new to Ruby myself and found the Rails book, well,
confusing. Rails is a framework built with Ruby and the book isn't aimed
at helping you with Ruby itself.
The first edition (not the second edition which covers 1.8) of
"Programming Ruby - The Pragmatic Programmer's Guide" is online:
http://www.ruby-doc.org/docs/ProgrammingRuby/
So you could take a look before you buy a copy (of the second edition) to
see what you think.
And look around ruby-doc.org, there's some very useful info there.
···
On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:32:34 -0700, Robert Hicks wrote:
I would like to learn Ruby so I am looking at getting "Programming
Ruby". I am also looking at converting stuff to RoR, so I was looking
at getting "Agile Web Development with Rails".Would those be good?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys
on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING
like Shakespeare!" - Blair Houghton
The short answer: "It depends."
Programming Ruby, also known as "the Pickaxe" because of the pickaxe on
the front cover, is an excellent book for people who are already
programmers in (an)other language(s). It's also a very nice reference
to have on your shelf. If you're a brand new, or relatively novice,
programmer, you might want to choose something that does a little more
hand-holding in the early stages of learning Ruby (and learning to
program in general). Programming Ruby basically assumes you know most
of the concepts of programming that come up in the first few chapters,
but don't know how they apply in Ruby.
So -- if you're a programmer already, Programming Ruby's an excellent
choice. If you've never programmed before, or have only barely touched
program source code (such as doing some very simple imperative stuff
with PHP or JavaScript), you'd probably be better served by choosing a
book like Chris Pine's "Learning to Program".
There's now an effective middle road, in the form of another book called
"Everyday Scripting with Ruby". You might want to have a look at that
while you're deciding as well. There are other books available, but
these are the three with which I'm familiar that I know are at least
reasonably good. In fact, from what I've seen, all three are truly
excellent -- they just target different audiences. They are also,
conveniently, all published under the Pragmatic Programmers imprimatur.
"Agile Web Development with Rails" is also an excellent book, but not
for learning Ruby, per se. It's an excellent book for learning Rails
itself, the framework. You really don't need to know much Ruby to do
basic Rails development -- though if you start using Rails heavily you
will *definitely* benefit from learning Ruby itself pretty heavily. If
you're already a PHP web developer, you should be able to get started
with Rails pretty quickly with the Rails book by starting with the
appendix that gives a brief overview of the Ruby language. That'll help
you translate programming concepts from a language like PHP to Ruby,
insofar as is needed to do basic work with Rails. Surprise: Agile Web
Development with Rails is also a Pragmatic Programmers book, and of a
high quality similar to the others I've mentioned.
While I'm talking about the PragProgs, I should mention where the
Pragmatic Programmers name arose: Some time ago, Dave Thomas and Andrew
Hunt wrote a book called The Pragmatic Programmer. It doesn't teach any
particular programming language, and in fact doesn't teach you to
program, really. It does, however, provide excellent details on how to
be a *good programmer*, once you already know how to program,
*regardless of the language*. I recommend it wholeheartedly, as one of
the seminal works of programming practice.
Back on topic: If you're serious about Rails, and want to start with
Rails then move into Ruby, I suspect that the second book you should
pick up after Agile Web Development is a book called "Ruby for Rails".
I haven't had a chance to go through it at all, but by reputation it is
an excellent book as well, and teaches Ruby programming from a Rails
perspective, going beyond merely teaching the framework and the minimum
of Ruby knowledge necessary to use Rails.
I hear good things about "The Ruby Way", as well. I salivate for this
book, and will probably get it next month. It's probably a good second
or third Ruby book (depending on how much programming you know when you
start with Ruby and how quickly you learn the language).
Neither Ruby for Rails nor The Ruby Way is a Pragmatic Programmers book,
but don't let that deter you. I've heard nothing but glowing
recommendations in relation to these two books. I can't personally
vouch for them, but I certainly have heard enough to be reasonably sure
I wouldn't waste my money to purchase them.
I hope that helps.
···
On Mon, Mar 12, 2007 at 10:35:08AM +0900, Robert Hicks wrote:
I would like to learn Ruby so I am looking at getting "Programming
Ruby". I am also looking at converting stuff to RoR, so I was looking
at getting "Agile Web Development with Rails".Would those be good?
--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
"The ability to quote is a serviceable
substitute for wit." - W. Somerset Maugham
I love this topic being that recently there has been a surge of new Ruby
/ Rails books published. Here are my two cents (and three books) that I
whole heartedly recommend:
1. Agile Web Development For Rails, 2nd ed.
Yes, I've read the comments of "but it's not RUBY Ruby", however I
feel that it's a great intro to practical Ruby as well as exposing you
to a great web development framework. From here, I usually then point
an aspiring mind to . . .
2. Ruby For Rails
This book is the perfect complement to the Agile book. After gaining
a basic understanding of Rails, you may start asking yourself questions
of "ok, so how does that piece of code REALLY work?" This book is great
for getting into some of the guts of how Rails works as well as straight
Ruby itself. Instead of it just being a reference, the author really
touches upon deeper aspects of Ruby in the abstract, such as why Ruby is
such a great OOPL, the uses of singleton methods, and the dangers /
practical uses of eval. Overall you will gain tons of knowledge of Ruby
through constant rereading of this book.
3. The Ruby Way
It was a tossup between this and the highly practical "Ruby Cookbook".
The reason this one wins is that it provides a deeper view into Ruby.
Instead of question -> recipe -> explanation, there's more of a
conversational / almost philosophical approach to the reading (question
-> solution -> explanation -> further explanation and insite).
Lastly, nothing beats these forums, IRC, and local Ruby meetings. Check
meetup.com or rubygarden to find a group close to you. Probably one of
the friendliest user communities you'll run by. Have fun!
Best regards,
Eckie
···
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
Marc Heiler wrote:
on IRC it happens too often
that people on rails dont know irb, and it can
be frustrating to tutor people that are only, mostly interested
in rails)
I don't understand the distinction between "learning irb" and "learning
Ruby". For instance, if I am going to write a hello world program, I
open up a text editor, type in the code, save it, and then run it by
typing:
ruby myProgram.rb
I realize that you could do the same thing in irb, but editing is easier
in a text file. So, as far as I can tell, you don't ever have to use
irb to learn Ruby. Is there something important about irb that I am
missing?
···
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/\.
I have both. My personal opinion, and I am biased, is that
the ruby book is very good. I (still) often use it for reference.
I have both books and I recommend them highly. The style suits me well:
logically presented, lots of examples, easy to search, minimal padding.
The Rails book well ... I think a disadvantage _is_ that it is
very speficic to rails.
To me, that's an advantage. When I buy a 700-page book about Rails, I want
most of those pages to be about Rails. This is the DRY principle applied to
paper 
The Agile RoR book has a 13-page appendix about Ruby itself, but more as a
taster than anything. If the OP is planning to buy both books, then I think
he'll be happy with both. You're right that he shouldn't just by the RoR
book by itself, unless he's already learned most of Ruby online.
Regards,
Brian.
···
On Mon, Mar 12, 2007 at 11:06:48AM +0900, Marc Heiler wrote:
I might suggest that "Ruby for Rails" might be a good book to start
with. It covers both Ruby and Rails in a spiral fashion, giving you a
little Ruby, then a little Rails, then going back in more depth.
It doesn't cover Ruby as deeply as the pickaxe, and it doesn't cover
Rails as deeply as AWDWR (and it's based on Rails 1.1 whereas AWDWR
2nd ed is more up-to-date covering the recently released Rails 1.2),
but as an introduction to both Ruby and Rails as a whole it's probably
not a bad place to start.
Now my experience was based on first reading the 1st ed of the pickaxe
on-line, then either the 1st ed of AWDWR or the 2nd ed of the Pickaxe
(or the other way around), then Ruby for Rails and AWDWR 2nd ed (sort
of in parallel). So I don't really know what it would have been like
to start with Ruby for Rails, any more than someone of my age knows
what it would be like to encounter Star Wars for the first time in the
the order Episode 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.
···
On 3/12/07, Chad Perrin <perrin@apotheon.com> wrote:
Back on topic: If you're serious about Rails, and want to start with
Rails then move into Ruby, I suspect that the second book you should
pick up after Agile Web Development is a book called "Ruby for Rails".
I haven't had a chance to go through it at all, but by reputation it is
an excellent book as well, and teaches Ruby programming from a Rails
perspective, going beyond merely teaching the framework and the minimum
of Ruby knowledge necessary to use Rails.
--
Rick DeNatale
My blog on Ruby
http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/
The short answer: "It depends."
I think this point is overlooked. Lots of people are learning Ruby,
but where you come to it from is going to shape how you learn it best.
"Ruby for Rails" and "The Ruby Way" are both very good in my opinion.
Alas, I've been searching for a RUG near me, and there seems to be
nothing closer than an hour drive away. I'm not dedicated enough right
now to drive two hours for a RUG meeting, which means I'm definitely not
dedicated enough to start a RUG myself. C'est la vie.
On the other hand, LUGs (Linux User Groups) might put you in touch with
some Rubyists in your area. It might be worth checking into, even if
you don't have any nearby RUGs.
···
On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 01:24:31AM +0900, Eckie Silapaswang wrote:
Lastly, nothing beats these forums, IRC, and local Ruby meetings. Check
meetup.com or rubygarden to find a group close to you. Probably one of
the friendliest user communities you'll run by. Have fun!
--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
"The first rule of magic is simple. Don't waste your time waving your
hands and hopping when a rock or a club will do." - McCloctnick the Lucid
I don't think you're missing anything. If you use a text editor with first-class support for Ruby (e.g., TextMate on OS X), your need for irb rapidly approaches zero.
Irb is often cited as a great way to do exploratory coding such as checking on what methods are available to an object. I can do exploratory coding without firing up irb because I can evaluate code snippets from within a TextMate edit buffer. Here is an example, cut from TextMate and pasted here:
<code>
(Array.new.methods - Object.new.methods).sort # => ["&", "*", "+", "-", "<<", "<=>", "", "=", "all?", "any?", "assoc", "at", "clear", "collect", "collect!", "compact", "compact!", "concat", "delete", "delete_at", "delete_if", "detect", "each", "each_index", "each_with_index", "empty?", "entries", "fetch", "fill", "find", "find_all", "first", "flatten", "flatten!", "grep", "include?", "index", "indexes", "indices", "inject", "insert", "join", "last", "length", "map", "map!", "max", "member?", "min", "nitems", "pack", "partition", "pop", "push", "rassoc", "reject", "reject!", "replace", "reverse", "reverse!", "reverse_each", "rindex", "select", "shift", "size", "slice", "slice!", "sort", "sort!", "sort_by", "to_ary", "transpose", "uniq", "uniq!", "unshift", "values_at", "zip", "|"]
</code>
Further, in a TextMate edit buffer, I can highlight any method name and get the ri documentation on the method just by hitting ctrl-H. I also find it easy to run unit tests and benchmarks from within TextMate -- two things I find awkward to do from irb.
But my point is not to sing the praises of TextMate. I like a lot, but there are other editors that can perform the same or similar feats. My main point is a really good code editor trumps irb.
Regards, Morton
···
On Mar 12, 2007, at 1:34 AM, 7stud 7stud wrote:
Marc Heiler wrote:
on IRC it happens too often
that people on rails dont know irb, and it can
be frustrating to tutor people that are only, mostly interested
in rails)I don't understand the distinction between "learning irb" and "learning
Ruby". For instance, if I am going to write a hello world program, I
open up a text editor, type in the code, save it, and then run it by
typing:ruby myProgram.rb
I realize that you could do the same thing in irb, but editing is easier
in a text file. So, as far as I can tell, you don't ever have to use
irb to learn Ruby. Is there something important about irb that I am
missing?
Actually, irb is basically just a command shell that uses Ruby as its
scripting language, rather than something like bash, csh, or DOS batch
files. It's an exceedingly nice command shell, though, and is worth
learning for its own sake -- I use it as my calculator application,
among other things. It helps with testing snippets of code when you
want to test them before including them in a file you're editing, and
you can use it for interactive language exploration.
When I'm actually writing "serious" Ruby code, of course, I save it to a
file in my text editor (I use Vim for that). I find that irb serves as
an indispensable aid a lot of the time, however. Your mileage may vary.
You don't *have* to use irb to learn Ruby, but sometimes it's pretty
nice anyway.
···
On Mon, Mar 12, 2007 at 02:34:48PM +0900, 7stud 7stud wrote:
Marc Heiler wrote:
> on IRC it happens too often
> that people on rails dont know irb, and it can
> be frustrating to tutor people that are only, mostly interested
> in rails)
>I don't understand the distinction between "learning irb" and "learning
Ruby". For instance, if I am going to write a hello world program, I
open up a text editor, type in the code, save it, and then run it by
typing:ruby myProgram.rb
I realize that you could do the same thing in irb, but editing is easier
in a text file. So, as far as I can tell, you don't ever have to use
irb to learn Ruby. Is there something important about irb that I am
missing?
--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
"There comes a time in the history of any project when it becomes necessary
to shoot the engineers and begin production." - MacUser, November 1990
>Back on topic: If you're serious about Rails, and want to start with
>Rails then move into Ruby, I suspect that the second book you should
>pick up after Agile Web Development is a book called "Ruby for Rails".
>I haven't had a chance to go through it at all, but by reputation it is
>an excellent book as well, and teaches Ruby programming from a Rails
>perspective, going beyond merely teaching the framework and the minimum
>of Ruby knowledge necessary to use Rails.I might suggest that "Ruby for Rails" might be a good book to start
with. It covers both Ruby and Rails in a spiral fashion, giving you a
little Ruby, then a little Rails, then going back in more depth.It doesn't cover Ruby as deeply as the pickaxe, and it doesn't cover
Rails as deeply as AWDWR (and it's based on Rails 1.1 whereas AWDWR
2nd ed is more up-to-date covering the recently released Rails 1.2),
but as an introduction to both Ruby and Rails as a whole it's probably
not a bad place to start.
Thanks for adding a more experienced perspective on those books. I'll
add some of the details of that to my store of knowledge.
Now my experience was based on first reading the 1st ed of the pickaxe
on-line, then either the 1st ed of AWDWR or the 2nd ed of the Pickaxe
(or the other way around), then Ruby for Rails and AWDWR 2nd ed (sort
of in parallel). So I don't really know what it would have been like
to start with Ruby for Rails, any more than someone of my age knows
what it would be like to encounter Star Wars for the first time in the
the order Episode 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.
I imagine it would be a little disorienting, but I'm just guessing.
···
On Mon, Mar 12, 2007 at 10:12:45PM +0900, Rick DeNatale wrote:
On 3/12/07, Chad Perrin <perrin@apotheon.com> wrote:
--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
This sig for rent: a Signify v1.14 production from http://www.debian.org/
Rick Denatale wrote:
I might suggest that "Ruby for Rails" might be a good book to start
with. It covers both Ruby and Rails in a spiral fashion, giving you a
little Ruby, then a little Rails, then going back in more depth.It doesn't cover Ruby as deeply as the pickaxe, and it doesn't cover
Rails as deeply as AWDWR (and it's based on Rails 1.1 whereas AWDWR
2nd ed is more up-to-date covering the recently released Rails 1.2),
but as an introduction to both Ruby and Rails as a whole it's probably
not a bad place to start.
I took a look at "Ruby for Rails" in the bookstore, and the preface says
you need previous experience with Rails. Do you think the book is
appropriate for someone who has no experience with Ruby or with Rails?
I also took a look at the new sitepoint book "Build Your Own Ruby on
Rails Web Applications"(copyright 2007):
which says it's for beginners to Ruby and Rails. It gets good reviews
on Amazon. One thing I liked about it: detailed installation
instructions. Not such a big deal for windows users because of one
click installation packages, but there are detailed installation
instructions for Mac OS 10.4, and separate installation instructions for
Linux. It's true there are installation instructions for Mac OS 10.4 on
the net, but unfortunately I can't even find the /usr/local directory
where everything is supposed to be installed. Am I supposed to create
that directory? Who knows. I hate installation instructions like that;
you feel lost before you can even start.
···
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/\.
Morton Goldberg wrote:
open up a text editor, type in the code, save it, and then run it by
typing:ruby myProgram.rb
I realize that you could do the same thing in irb, but editing is
easier
in a text file. So, as far as I can tell, you don't ever have to use
irb to learn Ruby. Is there something important about irb that I am
missing?I don't think you're missing anything. If you use a text editor with
first-class support for Ruby (e.g., TextMate on OS X), your need for
irb rapidly approaches zero.Irb is often cited as a great way to do exploratory coding such as
checking on what methods are available to an object. I can do
exploratory coding without firing up irb because I can evaluate code
snippets from within a TextMate edit buffer. Here is an example, cut
from TextMate and pasted here:<code>
(Array.new.methods - Object.new.methods).sort # => ["&", "*", "+",
"-", "<<", "<=>", "", "=", "all?", "any?", "assoc", "at",
"clear", "collect", "collect!", "compact", "compact!", "concat",
"delete", "delete_at", "delete_if", "detect", "each", "each_index",
"each_with_index", "empty?", "entries", "fetch", "fill", "find",
"find_all", "first", "flatten", "flatten!", "grep", "include?",
"index", "indexes", "indices", "inject", "insert", "join", "last",
"length", "map", "map!", "max", "member?", "min", "nitems", "pack",
"partition", "pop", "push", "rassoc", "reject", "reject!", "replace",
"reverse", "reverse!", "reverse_each", "rindex", "select", "shift",
"size", "slice", "slice!", "sort", "sort!", "sort_by", "to_ary",
"transpose", "uniq", "uniq!", "unshift", "values_at", "zip", "|"]
</code>Further, in a TextMate edit buffer, I can highlight any method name
and get the ri documentation on the method just by hitting ctrl-H. I
also find it easy to run unit tests and benchmarks from within
TextMate -- two things I find awkward to do from irb.But my point is not to sing the praises of TextMate. I like a lot,
but there are other editors that can perform the same or similar
feats. My main point is a really good code editor trumps irb.Regards, Morton
Thanks for the response. I'm actually interested in TextMate as well.
Do you know if I can create my own auto completion snippets in TextMate.
For instance, I currently use an editor where I can assign any character
sequence to a code snippet. Then if I type the character sequence and
hit the space bar, the code snippet is entered. I also use the auto
completion a lot just for long method names; I type one or two
characters and hit the space bar, and bang, the method name is inserted.
It's very easy to add new character sequences and the corresponding code
I want attached to the character sequence. It's also an extremely fast
to have the space bar as the trigger for the auto completion.
If that kind of stuff scares you, don't worry, you're not alone. That Unix command line stuff IS scary at times, especially in the beginning. I hate to tell you this, though, but if you're building web aplications or even static web sites, you need to learn the Unix command line stuff. It makes a whole lot of other stuff a lot easier to do and to understand. It's vital, but you don't need to learn all of it. If you're on a mac, get the Learning Unix for Mac OS X Tiger (or whichever version you have) from OReilly. It is a good intro to that stuff. While you're at it, UNIX in a Nutshell covers all of it unix/linux/osx/bsd because it's all mostly the same, but it also points out differences where important.
I know, you want to learn Ruby, and Rails, but these sit on top of some form of unix most of the time, and much of the programming world is basically built up on unix thinking and traditions (microsoft stuff aside)
···
On Mar 13, 2007, at 3:48 PM, 7stud 7stud wrote:
Rick Denatale wrote:
... unfortunately I can't even find the /usr/local directory
where everything is supposed to be installed. Am I supposed to create
that directory? Who knows. I hate installation instructions like that;
you feel lost before you can even start.
I took a look at "Ruby for Rails" in the bookstore, and the preface says
you need previous experience with Rails. Do you think the book is
appropriate for someone who has no experience with Ruby or with Rails?
Well here's what it says: "You need to know somthing about the Rails
framework. You don't need to be a grizzled Rails veteran; you can use
this book as part of your growth as a Rails developer. But you should
have a sense of the realm in whcih Rails operates -- or, if you're
really new to Rails, be willing to combine this book with other
sources of information to get the combined picture by working on
several fronts.
David, actually covers Rails starting from near square one. The book
builds a sample rails app, much like the first section of AWDWR.
I also took a look at the new sitepoint book "Build Your Own Ruby on
Rails Web Applications"(copyright 2007)
...
One thing I liked about it: detailed installation
instructions. Not such a big deal for windows users because of one
click installation packages, but there are detailed installation
instructions for Mac OS 10.4, and separate installation instructions for
Linux. It's true there are installation instructions for Mac OS 10.4 on
the net, but unfortunately I can't even find the /usr/local directory
where everything is supposed to be installed. Am I supposed to create
that directory? Who knows. I hate installation instructions like that;
you feel lost before you can even start.
This IS one thing with Ruby for Rails doesn't cover. There are
resources to help, such as the rails web-site and the rails mailing
list. On the other hand if you really need such detailed instructions
AWDWR does a very good job of leading you step by step.
One thing I like about AWDWR 2nd ed, as opposed to Ruby for Rails is
that it covers migrations and uses them from the beginning to do
database setup and schema evolution. Ruby for Rails does this using
mysql commands. Some might like that better, but I prefer to stick
with Ruby and Rails for this. My first encounter with Rails was using
the 1st ed of AWDWR, which was before migrations, when I found out
about them later, I slapped my head like those commercials "Wow! I
could have had a V-8" (apologies to those who aren't attuned to US
commercials, V-8 is a mixed-vegetable juice).
···
On 3/13/07, 7stud 7stud <dolgun@excite.com> wrote:
--
Rick DeNatale
My blog on Ruby
http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/
Let's just say that irb is worth learning to use and useful to know. It can be a lot quicker than Creating a new file, changing permissions on it and executing it. You can explore side effects and snippets very quickly. You can even open a file's contents in irb. One thing is for sure, if you have Ruby on a system, you have irb.
While learning Ruby, irb is useful.
TextMate is easy enough to start using, but like all good editors there is a learning curve. The auto completion isn't what you might expect from a full IDE like XCode or VisualWhatever. But it is a good quality app with a small footprint, not demanding of the system, and pretty robust.
The cool thing is the way TextMate just implements existing OS X software to do things like test run your code or validate or preview pages. It's really sort of a testament to the volume of good libraries in the Cocoa framework being used in ways they are meant to be used.
At first I wasn't sure if it was worth the price, but the more I used it, I quickly felt it was worth more.