Help -- persuade my boss to adopt ruby

ruby-talk
1

Hi Ruby Lovers,

I have a tough task need your help. I try to persuade my boss to adopt
Ruby in our project. The project is actually a re-construction of very
very old current system. during these days, we’ve been reading and
documenting the old system. A chance of promoting Ruby arose. I just
wrote a small program which replaced a now malfunctioning C program. The
C program is about 300 lines long, however my ruby program is:

File.open(“output.txt”,“w+”) do |f|
File.open(“input.txt”).each_line do |line|
fld=line.match(/.{4}(.{3})(.{6})(.{3}).{17}(.{6})/)
f.print fld[0],"-",fld[1],"-",fld[2],fld[3]
end
end

Now the headache is, they are pretty much determined on Java. I need to
write a Java version of the above program, just to show them: 1. how
simple a ruby program comparing to Java; 2. My selling point is that
when use ruby to program, you can concentrate on business logic, no need
to care about language issues, like variable declaration, close file
handle etc.

Can any Java programmers help?

Thanks!
Shannon

2

Shannon Fang wrote:

File.open(“output.txt”,“w+”) do |f|
File.open(“input.txt”).each_line do |line|
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The file will be left open after the loop. It will eventually be closed
when it is GC-ed, or you can do

   File.open("input.txt") do |in_f|
     f.each_line ...
3

In article 20021211201110.F0B9.XRFANG@hotmail.com,

Hi Ruby Lovers,

I have a tough task need your help. I try to persuade my boss to adopt
Ruby in our project.

Yes, this can be a very tough task indeed and it really depends a lot on
whether your boss has the technical ability to undertand the issues or
whether your boss is just set on a solution/language because it’s
currently in vogue. The former type you can probably deal with, the
latter… well, it’ll be an uphill battle.

The project is actually a re-construction of very
very old current system. during these days, we’ve been reading and
documenting the old system. A chance of promoting Ruby arose. I just
wrote a small program which replaced a now malfunctioning C program. The
C program is about 300 lines long, however my ruby program is:

File.open(“output.txt”,“w+”) do |f|
File.open(“input.txt”).each_line do |line|
fld=line.match(/.{4}(.{3})(.{6})(.{3}).{17}(.{6})/)
f.print fld[0],“-”,fld[1],“-”,fld[2],fld[3]
end
end

Now the headache is, they are pretty much determined on Java. I need to
write a Java version of the above program, just to show them: 1. how
simple a ruby program comparing to Java; 2. My selling point is that
when use ruby to program, you can concentrate on business logic, no need
to care about language issues, like variable declaration, close file
handle etc.

Can any Java programmers help?

I’m not a Java programmer, though I wrote a few Java programs when it
first came out ('96?)

Any idea why Java is the preferred language for this application?
Is it an in-house app or is it a web app? Who (and how many) will be
developing the app? If it’s just you developing it then Ruby may make a
lot of sense, but if it’s a whole team then your management is probably
worried that you’re the only one who knows Ruby. You could always make
the case that if you use Ruby they’ll only need you to develop the app
since it’ll be so much easier than doing it in Java but your coworkers may
not appreciate that argument :wink:

Phil

···

Shannon Fang xrfang@hotmail.com wrote:

“Or perhaps the truth is less interesting than the facts?”
Amy Weiss (accusing theregister.co.uk of engaging in ‘tabloid journalism’)
Senior VP, Communications
Recording Industry Association of America

4

Heyas.

One problem I really do see if you are competing with a smart'' language against java, is that the *SMART* about the language is actually what is putting it backwards. Face it, Java was designed for the average’’ programmer, while smart'' languages are designed to give you the freedom to write smart’’ programs.

smart'' programs is in the end what the one who will use the program will want, on the other hand, your boss will always want to be able to groom or develop the program even if a bus rolls
over you the other day’’ or he decides to throw you out.

That is why java often is the language of choice over ``smarter’’
languages like one of the ML Family (Ocaml e.g.), Erlang, Haskell,
Lisp or scheme, ruby …

They can just replace one idiot'' programmer with one other idiot’’
programmer (or even take a good one - java doesn’t force you to be
average), in the end it’s just easier to get someone to program in
java than to get someone who’d be able to do the same (in shorter
time, less LOC, less bugs etc. etc. etc.) in a ``smarter’’ language.

What you need to do to boost ruby is not show the smart'' functions of ruby. What you need to do is demonstrate how the code is its own documentation, how readable the code is, how easy to understand even complex things are. THEN they will consider ruby. Not if you show them the perl’’ strenghts: writing big things in ``just one line’'.

When you have code which is shorter than java code, and, without any
documentation at all, will mostly be understood even by managers if
you present a little function or so, not littered by language characteristics,
but by expressive power, then you have a much better chance to promote
Ruby.

Never forget that for a manager, it’s not only the technical issues to
decide what language to support for his project. He’ll always have
the thought “what happens if he leaves us ? Will we be able to easily
find a replacement for him ? will the others of the team fully understand
the application” and stuff like that.

Furthermore you must cultivate a culture of using ruby in your surroundings,
so even if they don’t choose ruby now, you can say in a year, hey, ten people
have been using it for a year for ALL KINDS of stuff! And then all will nod.
And it’s shorter and easier to read! And then all will nod. And then your
manager will frown, and ask you how to write “ruby”.

Hope that helped,

-Martin Weber

···

On Thu, Dec 12, 2002 at 05:36:12AM +0900, Shannon Fang wrote:

Hi Ruby Lovers,
[…]
[… push ruby instead of java …]

5

Shannon Fang wrote:

Hi Ruby Lovers,

File.open(“output.txt”,“w+”) do |f|
File.open(“input.txt”).each_line do |line|
fld=line.match(/.{4}(.{3})(.{6})(.{3}).{17}(.{6})/)
f.print fld[0],“-”,fld[1],“-”,fld[2],fld[3]
end
end

You might try something like the following. It has been tested on a sample
file of my own design… There may be better/more compact/idiomatic ways
to do this…

Although this example is slightly more complex than the ruby example, this
should not be the only reason to choose ruby over java. Think carefully
before you choose.

File: ProcessFile.java

import java.io.* ;
import java.util.regex.* ;

class ProcessFile {
public static void main(String argv){

try {
  File f_in  = new File("input.txt");
  File f_out  = new File("output.txt");
  String line ;
  Pattern p = Pattern.compile("(.{4}(.{3})(.{6})(.{3}).{17}(.{6}))") ;

  LineNumberReader in = new LineNumberReader(new FileReader(f_in));
  PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new FileWriter(f_out));

  while ( null != ( line=in.readLine())) {
    Matcher m = p.matcher(line);
    if ( true == m.find()) {
      System.out.println(m.group(1) + "-" + m.group(2) + "-" +

m.group(3)+ m.group(4));
}
}
} catch ( Exception e ) {
e.printStackTrace();
}
}
}

6

Hello Shannon,

Wednesday, December 11, 2002, 11:36:12 PM, you wrote:

Now the headache is, they are pretty much determined on Java. I need to
write a Java version of the above program,

if THEY think that Java is better then THEY must write this code. WE
can write Java program which will be bigger than C’s, has better bugs
and will be absolutely ureadable. it’s maximum WE can do :slight_smile:

···

–
Best regards,
Bulat mailto:bulatz@integ.ru

7

In article at893n02fn8@enews4.newsguy.com,

In article 20021211201110.F0B9.XRFANG@hotmail.com,

Now the headache is, they are pretty much determined on Java. I need to
write a Java version of the above program, just to show them: 1. how
simple a ruby program comparing to Java; 2. My selling point is that
when use ruby to program, you can concentrate on business logic, no need
to care about language issues, like variable declaration, close file
handle etc.

Can any Java programmers help?

I’m not a Java programmer, though I wrote a few Java programs when it
first came out ('96?)

Any idea why Java is the preferred language for this application?
Is it an in-house app or is it a web app? Who (and how many) will be
developing the app? If it’s just you developing it then Ruby may make a
lot of sense, but if it’s a whole team then your management is probably
worried that you’re the only one who knows Ruby. You could always make
the case that if you use Ruby they’ll only need you to develop the app
since it’ll be so much easier than doing it in Java but your coworkers may
not appreciate that argument :wink:

One more thing that I thought of as I sent this to the ng…

That last line was intended to be funny, but here’s something to consider:
If there are multiple developers in your group try to build a coalition -
find others in your group who might appreciate Ruby and start teaching it
to them. In fact you could use the code example you gave to open the
conversation by showing how you did it in Ruby and asking them how they
would do it in Java (or whatever their favorite language is). That way
you’re learning a bit of Java while teaching a bit of Ruby. Hopefully
your coworker will notice how much shorter the Ruby code snippet is
compared to his Java solution and he’ll say “hey, what language was that
written in again? Ruby, eh? Looks kind’a cool. So where can I find some
info…”

If it’s just you trying to persuade the boss that Ruby is the language to
use your boss can just write you off as a crackpot (which is
unfortunately all too often what bosses do to visionaries) but if
you’ve got other developers in your group on your side then it’s more likely
that your boss will take it seriously.

Phil

···

Phil Tomson ptkwt@shell1.aracnet.com wrote:

Shannon Fang xrfang@hotmail.com wrote:
–
“Or perhaps the truth is less interesting than the facts?”
Amy Weiss (accusing theregister.co.uk of engaging in ‘tabloid journalism’)
Senior VP, Communications
Recording Industry Association of America

8

Hi Leif,

Thanks for the code. While reading your code, I remembered one thing I’m
not happy with Java. Although it is much better than C++, I think Java
is still quite low level language, it is artificially made complex by a
huge tree of classes. When I learned Java, and checked the document I
don’t know which class will suit my need, for example, the PrintWriter
class, I’m sure there are similar parent/child/sibling of it that does
similar job…

Ruby’s class hierachy is simpler and it is easier to find suitable
class/method for your purpose. What do you feel?

Shannon

···

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:02:30 +0900 Leif Jantzen leif.jantzen@cyberdude.com wrote:

Shannon Fang wrote:

Hi Ruby Lovers,

File.open(“output.txt”,“w+”) do |f|
File.open(“input.txt”).each_line do |line|
fld=line.match(/.{4}(.{3})(.{6})(.{3}).{17}(.{6})/)
f.print fld[0],“-”,fld[1],“-”,fld[2],fld[3]
end
end

You might try something like the following. It has been tested on a sample
file of my own design… There may be better/more compact/idiomatic ways
to do this…

Although this example is slightly more complex than the ruby example, this
should not be the only reason to choose ruby over java. Think carefully
before you choose.

File: ProcessFile.java

import java.io.* ;
import java.util.regex.* ;

class ProcessFile {
public static void main(String argv){

try {
  File f_in  = new File("input.txt");
  File f_out  = new File("output.txt");
  String line ;
  Pattern p = Pattern.compile("(.{4}(.{3})(.{6})(.{3}).{17}(.{6}))") ;

  LineNumberReader in = new LineNumberReader(new FileReader(f_in));
  PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new FileWriter(f_out));

  while ( null != ( line=in.readLine())) {
    Matcher m = p.matcher(line);
    if ( true == m.find()) {
      System.out.println(m.group(1) + "-" + m.group(2) + "-" +

m.group(3)+ m.group(4));
}
}
} catch ( Exception e ) {
e.printStackTrace();
}
}
}

9

Hi Phil,

You are absolutely right. What they fear is that:

  1. Currently only I understand Ruby.
  2. Java is in vogue. They want the language to be there after 10-20
    years…

I am currently writing a small introduction letter to my boss…

Shannon

···

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:41:39 +0900 ptkwt@shell1.aracnet.com (Phil Tomson) wrote:

In article at893n02fn8@enews4.newsguy.com,
Phil Tomson ptkwt@shell1.aracnet.com wrote:

In article 20021211201110.F0B9.XRFANG@hotmail.com,
Shannon Fang xrfang@hotmail.com wrote:

Now the headache is, they are pretty much determined on Java. I need to
write a Java version of the above program, just to show them: 1. how
simple a ruby program comparing to Java; 2. My selling point is that
when use ruby to program, you can concentrate on business logic, no need
to care about language issues, like variable declaration, close file
handle etc.

Can any Java programmers help?

I’m not a Java programmer, though I wrote a few Java programs when it
first came out ('96?)

Any idea why Java is the preferred language for this application?
Is it an in-house app or is it a web app? Who (and how many) will be
developing the app? If it’s just you developing it then Ruby may make a
lot of sense, but if it’s a whole team then your management is probably
worried that you’re the only one who knows Ruby. You could always make
the case that if you use Ruby they’ll only need you to develop the app
since it’ll be so much easier than doing it in Java but your coworkers may
not appreciate that argument :wink:

One more thing that I thought of as I sent this to the ng…

That last line was intended to be funny, but here’s something to consider:
If there are multiple developers in your group try to build a coalition -
find others in your group who might appreciate Ruby and start teaching it
to them. In fact you could use the code example you gave to open the
conversation by showing how you did it in Ruby and asking them how they
would do it in Java (or whatever their favorite language is). That way
you’re learning a bit of Java while teaching a bit of Ruby. Hopefully
your coworker will notice how much shorter the Ruby code snippet is
compared to his Java solution and he’ll say “hey, what language was that
written in again? Ruby, eh? Looks kind’a cool. So where can I find some
info…”

If it’s just you trying to persuade the boss that Ruby is the language to
use your boss can just write you off as a crackpot (which is
unfortunately all too often what bosses do to visionaries) but if
you’ve got other developers in your group on your side then it’s more likely
that your boss will take it seriously.

Phil

“Or perhaps the truth is less interesting than the facts?”
Amy Weiss (accusing theregister.co.uk of engaging in ‘tabloid journalism’)
Senior VP, Communications
Recording Industry Association of America

10

Shannon Fang xrfang@hotmail.com wrote in
news:20021212000456.8232.XRFANG@hotmail.com:

Hi Leif,

Thanks for the code. While reading your code, I remembered one thing
I’m not happy with Java. Although it is much better than C++, I think
Java is still quite low level language, it is artificially made
complex by a huge tree of classes. When I learned Java, and checked
the document I don’t know which class will suit my need, for example,
the PrintWriter class, I’m sure there are similar parent/child/sibling
of it that does similar job…

You are quite right. However, the class library authors have ( sensibly
) avoided duplicating functionality, so usually what you need is located
just one place. The trick is to find it… :wink: I must admit I had to
browse the core api javadocs to get this sample right.

Ruby’s class hierachy is simpler and it is easier to find suitable
class/method for your purpose. What do you feel?

I haven’t done much ruby coding (yet) so I’m not really qualified to
answer that question. One big difference between java and ruby is the
sheer number of APIs in java, especially if you take into account the
good stuff that comes from the jakarta project. Usually one becomes
quite proficient in the stuff one uses every day, such as servlets or
JDBC, and blissfully ignorant of all the other APIs ( Swing, Crypto,
Imaging, JavaCard, Jini or whatever).

I view the number of API’s in Java to be one of its strengths. If one
uses a proper IDE, such as IntelliJ IDEA or Eclipse, then navigating the
source code and third party components is usually not a problem. Having
access to lots of third party ( often open source ) components gives me
as a developer a big advantage. Java is also a proven technology in
environments which needs high stability, security, processing volume,
and transaction processing etc. Although ruby have some nice features,
you dont have to be a pointy haired boss to prefer java over ruby…

The only real way to convince your boss that ruby is better is to prove
it. Implement a non-trivial part of your system in ruby and show him
(/her?) that it is functioning well in a production environment (
simulated or real ), and that it is easy to extend and maintain.
Seeing is believing.

-lj

btw: see small bugfix below

File: ProcessFile.java

import java.io.* ;
import java.util.regex.* ;

class ProcessFile {
public static void main(String argv){

try {
  File f_in  = new File("input.txt");
  File f_out  = new File("output.txt");
  String line ;
  Pattern p =
  Pattern.compile("(.{4}(.{3})(.{6})(.{3}).{17}(.{6}))") ; 

  LineNumberReader in = new LineNumberReader(new
  FileReader(f_in)); PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new
  FileWriter(f_out)); 

  while ( null != ( line=in.readLine())) {
    Matcher m = p.matcher(line);
    if ( true == m.find()) {
      System.out.println(m.group(1) + "-" + m.group(2) + "-" +

m.group(3)+ m.group(4));

// Should of course write to file, not stdout:

       out.println(m.group(1) + "-" + m.group(2) + "-" +

m.group(3)+ m.group(4));

··· 
    }
  }
} catch ( Exception e ) {
  e.printStackTrace();
}
11

Hi Phil,

You are absolutely right. What they fear is that:

  1. Currently only I understand Ruby.
  2. Java is in vogue. They want the language to be there
    after 10-20 years…

It’s been in vogue since release (which someone else in the list said
was probably 1996). That’s 6 years of vogueness.

May as well argue for straight C or Perl. C’s been in vogue for 20-30
years and Perl’s been in and out of vogue for around a decade. Ruby’s
new and untried.

I’d like to see Ruby be more widely used. You just need to be able to
show your boss that it won’t vanish in a year or two, when someone
writes Peridot or Opal.

I’d love to have $WORK convert from Perl to Ruby, but I’m having enough
fun getting them to use more Perl 5 features than Perl 4.

cheers,

···

–
Iain.

12

I have given two presentations on Ruby at my work. It was received much
better than I anticipated. I used to get “Only you know Ruby”, to
which I would respond, “Any programmer here after 2 days will know
Ruby better than they currently know Perl”. After seeing the code
in two presentations, I think they are beginning to believe this
bit of truth.

···

On Thursday, 12 December 2002 at 7:42:00 +0900, Shannon Fang wrote:

Hi Phil,

You are absolutely right. What they fear is that:

  1. Currently only I understand Ruby.
  2. Java is in vogue. They want the language to be there after 10-20
    years…

I am currently writing a small introduction letter to my boss…

–
Jim Freeze

Osborn’s Law:
Variables won’t; constants aren’t.

13

Hi Phil, You are absolutely right. What they fear is that:

> 1. Currently only I understand Ruby.  2. Java is in
> vogue. They want the language to be there after 10-20 years...

If that’s their concern, pick ruby over Java - It’s not at all clear
what the long term viability of Sun is, and Java belongs to Sun.

14

In article 20021211184131.A84073@freeze.org,

Hi Phil,

You are absolutely right. What they fear is that:

  1. Currently only I understand Ruby.
  2. Java is in vogue. They want the language to be there after 10-20
    years…

I am currently writing a small introduction letter to my boss…

I have given two presentations on Ruby at my work. It was received much
better than I anticipated.

However just to show that YMMV: I gave a presentation on Ruby to my group
at the same company that Jim works at (different location) about 1.5 years
ago and it was NOT received well.

I used to get “Only you know Ruby”, to
which I would respond, “Any programmer here after 2 days will know
Ruby better than they currently know Perl”.

I think this is really true. That’s certainly how I recall feeling after
moving from Perl to Ruby (more comfortable in Ruby after a couple of
days).

After seeing the code
in two presentations, I think they are beginning to believe this
bit of truth.

good for them :wink:

Phil

···

Jim Freeze jim@freeze.org wrote:

On Thursday, 12 December 2002 at 7:42:00 +0900, Shannon Fang wrote:
–
“Or perhaps the truth is less interesting than the facts?”
Amy Weiss (accusing theregister.co.uk of engaging in ‘tabloid journalism’)
Senior VP, Communications
Recording Industry Association of America

15

Paul J. Sanchez wrote:

“SF” == Shannon Fang xrfang@hotmail.com writes:

> Hi Phil, You are absolutely right. What they fear is that:

> 1. Currently only I understand Ruby.  2. Java is in
> vogue. They want the language to be there after 10-20 years...

If that’s their concern, pick ruby over Java - It’s not at all clear
what the long term viability of Sun is, and Java belongs to Sun.

If you want long term stability then you want

COBOL, FORTRAN or LISP

these languages have been going a very long time and are not going to
disappear in the next 10 to 20 years.

If stability is what you really want that is?

Does anyone really expect a program to be still used 20 years later in
its origonally written form, I know it happens but is it a realistic
requirement of 99% of the code written?

16

In article 20021211184131.A84073@freeze.org,

I have given two presentations on Ruby at my work. It was received much
better than I anticipated.

However just to show that YMMV: I gave a presentation on Ruby to my group
at the same company that Jim works at (different location) about 1.5 years
ago and it was NOT received well.

And it had nothing to do with Phil’s abilities, no matter what he says. :slight_smile:
Seriously, I think Phil was up against the pointy haired manager that wanted to
get promoted. Very scary…

I used to get “Only you know Ruby”, to
which I would respond, “Any programmer here after 2 days will know
Ruby better than they currently know Perl”.

I think this is really true. That’s certainly how I recall feeling after
moving from Perl to Ruby (more comfortable in Ruby after a couple of
days).

Well it doesn’t help perl when I can say that I have programmed in perl
for 5 years, and now that I have switched to ruby 2 yrs ago, I can
hardly remember anything about perl. It’s like when you have a bad
experience and your mind blocks it from your memory. Man, I wonder if
someone in the future undergoing hypnosis could suffer severe
psychological trauma if they uncovered their old perl memories? :wink:

Tis true of perl: When I wrote the code, only myself and God knew
what it said. Now (1 week later) only God knows.

After seeing the code
in two presentations, I think they are beginning to believe this
bit of truth.

good for them :wink:

I think the point to remember here is that people are fundamentally
lazy. You can spout the beauty/power/simplicity/mainatainablity of
Ruby all day and people may just look at you with a blank stare.
But, do a grand job in 1-2 days, then show it to your boss and colleages and
they look at code they have never seen and can actually understand it,
there is a natural tendancy to build an instant and strong bond with such a powerful
language. Then, when they go back to looking at C/C++/Java/Perl, and simple
tasks are hidden behind complex syntax and typecasting that makes
their head hurt, most will eventually take the path of least pain, I
mean resistance. (The lazy principle)

···

On Thursday, 12 December 2002 at 12:03:52 +0900, Phil Tomson wrote:

Jim Freeze jim@freeze.org wrote:

On Thursday, 12 December 2002 at 7:42:00 +0900, Shannon Fang wrote:

–
Jim Freeze

Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it
every six months.
– Oscar Wilde

17

In article 20021211222925.B84560@freeze.org,

In article 20021211184131.A84073@freeze.org,

I have given two presentations on Ruby at my work. It was received much
better than I anticipated.

However just to show that YMMV: I gave a presentation on Ruby to my group
at the same company that Jim works at (different location) about 1.5 years
ago and it was NOT received well.

And it had nothing to do with Phil’s abilities, no matter what he says. :slight_smile:

Well, yeah, your presentation might have been a lot better :wink: You
probably used PowerPoint for your presentation, I used HTML so that would
have made a difference :wink: (actually, the sad truth is that some of the
folks I gave my Ruby presentation to did complain that it wasn’t done in
PowerPoint - “PowerPoint is the company standard for presentations!” )

Seriously, I think Phil was up against the pointy haired manager that
wanted to get promoted. Very scary…

A PowerPointy Haired Manager :wink:

I used to get “Only you know Ruby”, to
which I would respond, “Any programmer here after 2 days will know
Ruby better than they currently know Perl”.

I think this is really true. That’s certainly how I recall feeling after
moving from Perl to Ruby (more comfortable in Ruby after a couple of
days).

Well it doesn’t help perl when I can say that I have programmed in perl
for 5 years, and now that I have switched to ruby 2 yrs ago, I can
hardly remember anything about perl.

I have exactly the same experience (well, it was six years of Perl for me)

  • I don’t want to remember the pain… you can’t make me!!

Actually, I’ve signed up to do a Ruby presentation that the Portland Perl
Monger’s meeting next month so I’m gonna have to remember some Perl to
show them some comparison examples. (BTW: They’re pretty receptive to
Ruby over there at the Portland Perl Mongers - invade your local Perl
Monger’s meetings!)

It’s like when you have a bad
experience and your mind blocks it from your memory. Man, I wonder if
someone in the future undergoing hypnosis could suffer severe
psychological trauma if they uncovered their old perl memories? :wink:

Repressed memory syndrome…

Tis true of perl: When I wrote the code, only myself and God knew
what it said. Now (1 week later) only God knows.

:wink:

Phil

···

Jim Freeze jim@freeze.org wrote:

On Thursday, 12 December 2002 at 12:03:52 +0900, Phil Tomson wrote:

Jim Freeze jim@freeze.org wrote:

On Thursday, 12 December 2002 at 7:42:00 +0900, Shannon Fang wrote:
–
“Or perhaps the truth is less interesting than the facts?”
Amy Weiss (accusing theregister.co.uk of engaging in ‘tabloid journalism’)
Senior VP, Communications
Recording Industry Association of America

18

Ooh, that is classic. :slight_smile:

···

On Thursday, 12 December 2002 at 13:44:25 +0900, Phil Tomson wrote:

In article 20021211222925.B84560@freeze.org,

Seriously, I think Phil was up against the pointy haired manager that
wanted to get promoted. Very scary…

A PowerPointy Haired Manager :wink:

–
Jim Freeze

“Sometimes I simply feel that the whole world is a cigarette and I’m
the only ashtray.”