Draw 1280, 1024

Good point(s). I'll post links here, at least:

central UCBLogo resources page:
  Berkeley Logo (UCBLogo)

Computer Science Logo Style
Volume 1: Symbolic Computing
  Symbolic Computing contents

Computer Science Logo Style
Volume 2: Advanced Techniques
  Advanced Techniques contents

Computer Science Logo Style
Volume 3: Beyond Programming
  Beyond Programming contents

(Getting _really_ OT now...)

I just want to say thanks, the chapter on Automata was really good, and it had the best explanation of the proof of the halting problem I've ever read.

···

On Sep 9, 2006, at 6:22 AM, Chad Perrin wrote:

On Sat, Sep 09, 2006 at 06:46:51PM +0900, Robert Dober wrote:

--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
"Real ugliness is not harsh-looking syntax, but having to
build programs out of the wrong concepts." - Paul Graham

Than ty even more for having taken the time :wink:
Cheers
Robert

···

On 9/9/06, Chad Perrin <perrin@apotheon.com> wrote:

On Sat, Sep 09, 2006 at 06:46:51PM +0900, Robert Dober wrote:
>
> Chad
> maybe you remember the post where I was discarding D and you kind of
made me
> think about it twice. This is a good time to come back [ I consider
this
> group flexible enough not to be bothered by slighly off topic posts but
feel
> free to tell me if I am wrong ] to you on this point.
> I do not regret at all looking at D a second time and it indeed seems a
very
> nice thing to have in your toolbox!!!.
> So why not toss in the links for UCBLogo?
> I feel it might be of interest for more folks than just OP and myself.
> If you feel differently about it could you reply to me offlist?
> Thx in advance

Good point(s). I'll post links here, at least:

central UCBLogo resources page:
  Berkeley Logo (UCBLogo)

Computer Science Logo Style
Volume 1: Symbolic Computing
  Symbolic Computing contents

Computer Science Logo Style
Volume 2: Advanced Techniques
  Advanced Techniques contents

Computer Science Logo Style
Volume 3: Beyond Programming
  Beyond Programming contents

At least some Linux distributions (Debian included) provide UCBLogo
packages in their software archives. I was delighted to find that I
could install UCBLogo on my Debian systems by typing "apt-get install
ucblogo" (without the quotes) into a root shell. Quite convenient.

Logo has been called the "Lisp without parentheses", and that's pretty
much what it is. Most implementations have been somewhat neutered in
the creators' zeal for producing a language implementation that is
friendly to young students, but UCBLogo is not of that ilk -- it goes so
far as to include support for Lisp macros (though I haven't personally
explored their use enough to be able to make a determination about how
well they're supported, the syntax and use seems quite similar to that
of ANSI Common Lisp).

It's an open source distribution of Logo created by a Berkeley
professor, Bryan Harvey, who is also the author of the above-mentioned
university computer science textbooks that make use of UCBLogo as the
example language. I've found the books to be well-written (so far -- I
have been often and thoroughly distracted by the demands of other
languages in my life, alas), and the language absurdly easy to learn.
It has been the single biggest factor in my growing appreciation for
arithmetic prefix notation, and functional syntax in general, so far.

Suddenly, I'm considering creating a mailing list . . . damn. Like I
don't have enough on my plate already.

--

CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
"Real ugliness is not harsh-looking syntax, but having to
build programs out of the wrong concepts." - Paul Graham

--
Deux choses sont infinies : l'univers et la bêtise humaine ; en ce qui
concerne l'univers, je n'en ai pas acquis la certitude absolue.

- Albert Einstein

On 9 Sep 2006, at 10:36, Martin DeMello wrote about RubyGame

Thanks very much for the examples and pointer to Rubygame - I'll give it a good look.

Cheers,
  Benj

*snip*

Thus, using irb, I
should be able to issue a commands and see the result. I shouldn't
have to create contexts and windows, program up call backs, cache my
drawing commands somewhere ready for a re-paint and string the lot
together.

But yes, you would have to do that, at least once. You would have to so that
because, apart from Logo, there are few ready-built graphic facilities such
as you are describing. You would have to write the program, then you would
have to integrate a graphic interface. And in the worst case, you would
have to perform the second step for each platform of interest.

*snip*

:slight_smile: That's okay, I'm a programmer; I don't mind doing some work. It should certainly be possible to build a simple abstraction that can be implemented for any given platform. I'm surprised that it's not been done already, and everyone here is giving lots of useful advice for either something similar, or for putting it together.

Cheers,
  Benj

···

On 9 Sep 2006, at 16:45, Paul Lutus wrote:

That would make sense if I was building an application that did drawing and made use of Ruby as the drawing description scripting language. That's not really what I want though. I want a very simple library for drawing. One that I can use from a stand alone program should I wish, but also use easily from irb.

Cheers,
  Benj

···

On 9 Sep 2006, at 16:50, Paul Lutus wrote:

Martin DeMello wrote:

On 9/9/06, David Vallner <david@vallner.net> wrote:

Benjohn Barnes wrote:

Personally, I'm on a Mac. If there is a solution for my world, that
would do for me. Something global would rock though.

The best I can think of in portability is using wxWidgets / FOX / Gtk to
draw inside a 2D buffer in a window / GUI widget.

I think all the GUI toolkits insist on running their own mainloop,
which plays badly with IRB

But (IMHO) you shouldn't be using irb anyway. You should be using a user
entry event loop that evaluates the user's entries with "eval".

The upshot, I think, is that you'd probably have better luck creating a
new REPL interface than integrating what you want to accomplish with
IRB.

···

On Sun, Sep 10, 2006 at 12:58:10AM +0900, Martin DeMello wrote:

On 9/9/06, Paul Lutus <nospam@nosite.zzz> wrote:
>
>I am at a loss to understand why you think irb is essential to your plan.
>There are much better solutions for talking to the user.

Because IRB has already solved the general problem of a good, robust
REPL. Why should drawing to a canvas be treated as a separate problem?
Ideally it should just be another set of things you can do from the
ruby REPL.

--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
"There comes a time in the history of any project when it becomes necessary
to shoot the engineers and begin production." - MacUser, November 1990

Martin DeMello wrote:

/ ...

I am at a loss to understand why you think irb is essential to your plan.
There are much better solutions for talking to the user.

Because IRB has already solved the general problem of a good, robust
REPL. Why should drawing to a canvas be treated as a separate problem?

Because of the problem of the event loop, which will be hijacked by irb if
it's part of the application.

If you blow off irb between invocations, you lose its internal state, the
only point in its presence. If you don't blow off irb, you lose control of
the event thread, and the rendering (and other GUI-related activities)
won't happen reliably.

···

--
Paul Lutus
http://www.arachnoid.com

>
>Good point(s). I'll post links here, at least:

[ snip ]

(Getting _really_ OT now...)

I just want to say thanks, the chapter on Automata was really good,
and it had the best explanation of the proof of the halting problem
I've ever read.

Quite welcome. I'm glad it was valuable.

Now if I can just get Brian Harvey to relicense UCBLogo under less
restrictive distribution terms than GPL, my work will be complete.

Sorta.

···

On Sun, Sep 10, 2006 at 04:03:52AM +0900, Logan Capaldo wrote:

On Sep 9, 2006, at 6:22 AM, Chad Perrin wrote:

--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
"A script is what you give the actors. A program
is what you give the audience." - Larry Wall

That only applies to a full-fledged GUI, complete with listeners,
though - all the OP wanted was a simple canvas to which he could draw.
I've already posted a working proof-of-concept of a canvas with a
thread to update itself every few milliseconds, controllable from irb
- I see no reason why that can't be extended to a more featureful
drawable object that works happily alongside irb.

martin

···

On 9/9/06, Paul Lutus <nospam@nosite.zzz> wrote:

Martin DeMello wrote:
>
> Because IRB has already solved the general problem of a good, robust
> REPL. Why should drawing to a canvas be treated as a separate problem?

Because of the problem of the event loop, which will be hijacked by irb if
it's part of the application.

In article <20060909200313.GC12470@apotheon.com>,

···

Chad Perrin <perrin@apotheon.com> wrote:

Now if I can just get Brian Harvey to relicense UCBLogo under less
restrictive distribution terms than GPL, my work will be complete.

I'd say that's unlikely. He's quite the idealist (he was my first
instructor in CS, and I was a TA for him later). Not quite RMS (he's
far more relaxed), but in the same vein.

On the other hand, if you offer him enough potstickers, you never know
what he might do. A BSD-style license might interest him.
--
Mark Ping
emarkp@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU

Idealism isn't an obstacle to me -- it's the wrong ideology. The things
I dislike about the GPL have nothing to do with commercializing things
as proprietary software, and everything to do with granting people the
right to distribute software freely. The GPL, in case you haven't
heard, has been used by the FSF as justification for threatening small
Linux distros with lawsuits if they don't devote significant resources
to maintaining, and making available, archives of software for several
years after the software in question has become obsolete by the
project's standards. According to the GPL, once you make a piece of GPL
software availabl to someone in binary form, even if only for a few
hours, you must then provide easy accessibility to the source for three
years thereafter -- and linking them upstream is not sufficient to suit
the FSF.

This is going to make a lot of would-be Linux distributors think twice
about creating and distributing a distribution. It will especially
affect smaller project would-be founders think twice.

It made me think twice. I now won't ever be part of any GPL binary
distribution chain, ever -- which pretty much makes BitTorrent a
non-option for me as a means of getting Linux installer images, since
BitTorrent's value for that is negated when I'm not allowing uploads to
"give back" to the torrent availability. A distribution I was working
on has been canned. Et cetera.

···

On Sun, Sep 10, 2006 at 08:55:09AM +0900, E. Mark Ping wrote:

In article <20060909200313.GC12470@apotheon.com>,
Chad Perrin <perrin@apotheon.com> wrote:
>Now if I can just get Brian Harvey to relicense UCBLogo under less
>restrictive distribution terms than GPL, my work will be complete.

I'd say that's unlikely. He's quite the idealist (he was my first
instructor in CS, and I was a TA for him later). Not quite RMS (he's
far more relaxed), but in the same vein.

On the other hand, if you offer him enough potstickers, you never know
what he might do. A BSD-style license might interest him.

--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
unix virus: If you're using a unixlike OS, please forward
this to 20 others and erase your system partition.

Chad Perrin wrote:

Idealism isn't an obstacle to me -- it's the wrong ideology. The things
I dislike about the GPL have nothing to do with commercializing things
as proprietary software, and everything to do with granting people the
right to distribute software freely. The GPL, in case you haven't
heard, has been used by the FSF as justification for threatening small
Linux distros with lawsuits if they don't devote significant resources
to maintaining, and making available, archives of software for several
years after the software in question has become obsolete by the
project's standards. According to the GPL, once you make a piece of GPL
software availabl to someone in binary form, even if only for a few
hours, you must then provide easy accessibility to the source for three
years thereafter -- and linking them upstream is not sufficient to suit
the FSF.

This is going to make a lot of would-be Linux distributors think twice
about creating and distributing a distribution. It will especially
affect smaller project would-be founders think twice.

I can't personally imagine why someone would want to be a "Linux
distributor". There are two major "for-profit" Linux distributors
already, Red Hat and Novell, three major community distributors,
Slackware, Debian and Gentoo, and lots of little splinters and hangers
on. If you're motivated by money, work for Red Hat or Novell or someone
who uses them. If you're motivated by community, contribute to Debian or
Gentoo or Slackware.

There are a lot of things not to like about the GPL and the FSF in
addition to the ones you mention. But even in the absence of potential
FSF lawsuits, there are lots more interesting and potentially profitable
problems to be solved within the context of existing distributions,
rather than creating a new one.

It made me think twice. I now won't ever be part of any GPL binary
distribution chain, ever -- which pretty much makes BitTorrent a
non-option for me as a means of getting Linux installer images, since
BitTorrent's value for that is negated when I'm not allowing uploads to
"give back" to the torrent availability. A distribution I was working
on has been canned. Et cetera.

I wasn't aware of the BitTorrent interpretation of this FSF policy. Has
someone actually been asked not to participate in BitTorrent exchange of
Linux install media by the FSF? I download Quantian, Gentoo, CentOS,
OpenSuse and occasionally other distro images all the time with BitTorrent.

Speaking of licensing, a couple of days ago I downloaded OpenSuse 10.1
and installed it. You ought to read the Novell EULA when you install it
-- I almost bailed out and probably won't use it, since it was quite a
bit slower than Gentoo anyhow. :slight_smile: Oops ... one of the terms of the EULA
was that I not publish benchmarks. :slight_smile:

···

Chad Perrin wrote:
>
> It made me think twice. I now won't ever be part of any GPL binary
> distribution chain, ever -- which pretty much makes BitTorrent a
> non-option for me as a means of getting Linux installer images, since
> BitTorrent's value for that is negated when I'm not allowing uploads to
> "give back" to the torrent availability. A distribution I was working
> on has been canned. Et cetera.

I wasn't aware of the BitTorrent interpretation of this FSF policy. Has
someone actually been asked not to participate in BitTorrent exchange of
Linux install media by the FSF? I download Quantian, Gentoo, CentOS,
OpenSuse and occasionally other distro images all the time with BitTorrent.

Nobody associated with BitTorrent distribution of GPL software binaries
has been threatened with a lawsuit or otherwise coerced to cease
participation in BitTorrent exchanges YET, but I don't want to run that
risk personally. Someone was the first person to get individually sued
by the RIAA -- someone may be the first person to get individually sued
by the FSF. I'll let it be you.

Speaking of licensing, a couple of days ago I downloaded OpenSuse 10.1
and installed it. You ought to read the Novell EULA when you install it
-- I almost bailed out and probably won't use it, since it was quite a
bit slower than Gentoo anyhow. :slight_smile: Oops ... one of the terms of the EULA
was that I not publish benchmarks. :slight_smile:

I'm still waiting to see if EULAs are even enforceable -- that hasn't
been settled yet. In any case, I don't favor SuSE of any flavor, so
that's not much of a concern for me personally. That doesn't mean I
approve of the EULA approach to things. Retroactive contractual terms,
particularly when implicitly applied, don't make me happy in the least.

You may notice that I snipped all your rambling to the effect of "Nobody
should want to create a new distro anyway." There's a good reason for
that: it's not for you to decide what someone else does or does not want
to do, and it is in large part the ability to fork and/or compete as a
lone enthusiast that keeps the FLOSS community vibrant. All of your
commentary about why one might or might not want to spin off another
distribution is irrelevant to the point at hand, as far as I'm
concerned.

···

On Sun, Sep 10, 2006 at 10:15:51AM +0900, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
"The ability to quote is a serviceable
substitute for wit." - W. Somerset Maugham