Confession: I never learned CS

ruby-talk
1

I was thinking about my "Detecting number ranges" question and the various
answers to it; I was also reading Steve Yegge's old but excellent "five
essential phone-screen questions"
(http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/five-essential-phone-screen-questions).
And I realized something: In my 30-odd years of programming, I never
learned the stuff I think of as "Computer Science".

In the very beginning, I was on a Commodore using BASIC or ML, so there was
no such thing as data structures or recursion or parsing. Naturally.

But unlike most folks who went on to C, C++, LISP and/or Java before coming
to Ruby, I spent most of the next 15 years in PL/1, working on a
ridiculously high-volume distributed system, using relatively slow CPUs,
that had to have sub-second response times.

So I never learned big-O notation. I mean, I know what it means, but I
couldn't tell you what data structures are logarithmic and what data
structures are exponential, because we had exactly four kinds of data
structures: arrays, short linked lists, hash tables and everything else.
And those ran at four speeds, respectively: instant, fast, fast and way too
slow.

Parsing was likewise out of the picture. Any data I munched on had to be
pre-formatted in a structure that precisely matched the in-memory structure
it was being loaded into. The operating system even provided a standard
tool to describe "field-value" style tables and compile them into a binary
data file of repeated structs. Any notions of "parse trees" were out of
the question; only towards the end did we finally get fast enough
processors to consider occasionally *scanning* long strings for tokens.
And without parsing, there's little use for recursion.

And now I've jumped headfirst into the world of Ruby and modern CPUs, where
an interpreted language can parse itself, and I don't even know where to
start learning everything I missed. I'm not about to go learn LISP, even
though I'm sure it would be a fun experience - I've seen enough LISP in my
emacs startup to know it's not for me.

Yet I know I have much to learn, because I approach too many problems with
an iterative, loop-based approach, when Ruby has such nice tools for
parsing and list-processing and analysis.

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
think about data?

···

--
Jay Levitt |
Boston, MA | My character doesn't like it when they
Faster: jay at jay dot fm | cry or shout or hit.
http://www.jay.fm | - Kristoffer

2

Big hunks of it are fundamentally unlike Ruby, but that's probably a
good thing for your brain.
This book is a work of genius that I think every 'serious' programmer
should own: http://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/book.html
Sorry if that sounds too over-the-top. :slight_smile:

···

On 9/26/07, Jay Levitt <jay+news@jay.fm> wrote:

Yet I know I have much to learn, because I approach too many problems with
an iterative, loop-based approach, when Ruby has such nice tools for
parsing and list-processing and analysis.

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
think about data?

3

http://www.amazon.com/Design-Patterns-Object-Oriented-Addison-Wesley-Professional/dp/0201633612/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-1681521-1481518?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190842864&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Reference-Manual-Samuel-P-Harbison/dp/013089592X/ref=pd_sim_b_1_img/104-1681521-1481518

http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Algorithms-Thomas-H-Cormen/dp/0262032937/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-1681521-1481518?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190842923&sr=1-2

books you cannot live without.

cheers.

a @ http://drawohara.com/

···

On Sep 26, 2007, at 3:10 PM, Jay Levitt wrote:

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
think about data?

--
we can deny everything, except that we have the possibility of being better. simply reflect on that.
h.h. the 14th dalai lama

4

Jay Levitt wrote:

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
think about data?

If you want a book that deals with Ruby and the fundamentals you would
learn in any introduction to data structures and algorithms course, try
this:

http://www.brpreiss.com/books/opus8/

David B. Williams

···

--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/\.

5

Jay Levitt wrote:

Yet I know I have much to learn, because I approach too many problems with
an iterative, loop-based approach, when Ruby has such nice tools for
parsing and list-processing and analysis.

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
think about data?

It's worth going back to basics and watching the MIT SICP lectures. They got a lot of ideas I thought I knew straight in my head, and a lot of things that I thought were complicated turned out to be really simple. There's also a free copy of the textbook that goes with it online.

The book: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/
The lectures: Project MAC Home Page

···

--
Alex

6

I'm currently "reading" (i.e. turning two pages now and then)
Programming Language Pragmatics, and it's a good look at
how programming languages work.

http://www.cs.rochester.edu/~scott/pragmatics/

Introduction to Algorithms was a great book too.
I heard Okasaki's Purely Functional Data Structures
recommended as well.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/theses/okasaki.pdf

HTH,

···

On 9/27/07, Jay Levitt <jay+news@jay.fm> wrote:

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
think about data?

--
Ilmari Heikkinen

7

It all depends. Learn what you need. You don't necessarily need all those books.
They won't hurt you. (unless you try to carry more than 2 of them at any time)
But you can learn a lot from other people's code and from browsing used bookstores.
Many of the algorithms and design patterns covered don't change all that much.
You don't have to know everything to do stuff.
Data structures tend to differ somewhat depending on the language (and framework) you are using.
Probably the best thing to do for data structures is just run through some C books. Then hit a C Data structures book. That will give you a lot right there. But it all really depends on what you want or need to do. Much of it you may never actually use.

8

This book is so much fun to read. I love the stories, I mean where else
are you going to learn about cron implemented in a lego brick.

enjoy,

-jeremy

···

On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 06:42:54AM +0900, ara.t.howard wrote:

On Sep 26, 2007, at 3:10 PM, Jay Levitt wrote:

>So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the
>way I
>think about data?

http://www.amazon.com/Expert-Programming-Peter-van-Linden/dp/0131774298

--

Jeremy Hinegardner jeremy@hinegardner.org

9

Cool!
I'm reading that one starting.... now!

···

On Sep 26, 2007, at 8:32 PM, David B. Williams wrote:

Jay Levitt wrote:

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
think about data?

If you want a book that deals with Ruby and the fundamentals you would
learn in any introduction to data structures and algorithms course, try
this:

brpreiss.com

David B. Williams
http://www.cybersprocket.com

--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/\.

10

Berkely and MIT both have huge numbers of classes available as free podcasts, both through iTunes and through their own web sites. Some as videos.
The recording quality has even improved to the point of being listenable!

···

On Sep 27, 2007, at 1:38 AM, Alex Young wrote:

Jay Levitt wrote:

Yet I know I have much to learn, because I approach too many problems with
an iterative, loop-based approach, when Ruby has such nice tools for
parsing and list-processing and analysis.
So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
think about data?

It's worth going back to basics and watching the MIT SICP lectures. They got a lot of ideas I thought I knew straight in my head, and a lot of things that I thought were complicated turned out to be really simple. There's also a free copy of the textbook that goes with it online.

The book: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/
The lectures: Project MAC Home Page

--
Alex

11

Wow! Thanks for the many great recommendations, folks. Some comments:

* GoF: Yes, I have this one, and it's a classic; I've actually read both of
the Alexander books cover-to-cover while I was building a house. But I
also find that many of the GoF patterns are either unnecessary or greatly
simplified in Ruby. I know there's at least one project to codify the Ruby
equivalents, and I look forward to more work in that area.

* C programming books: I guess I didn't mention that I've got over a dozen
C and C++ books; I was following along on paper, I just never did much work
in those languages, and the books didn't really "change my thinking".
Great recommendation for someone who's truly jumped straight into Ruby,
though.

* Intro to Algorithms: I know it's the classic work, but I also see a huge
number of complaints on Amazon about the lack of provided solutions and
followup information; seems like it's intended more for a classroom setting
than as a self-study guide. I also admit a bias against older books;
technology writing has greatly improved as the field's expanded, and I find
it difficult to go back and read something like Date or K&R today. (Well,
Date was always tough.) Now, if Scott Meyers (Effective C++/STL) ever
wrote an algorithms book, *that* would be a best seller. Any thoughts?

* Data Structures and Algorithms (Preiss): I'm a little turned off by the
hard-to-read pixelated LaTex GIFs, the lack of a print version or even the
right to download it, the lack of a solutions manual, the web-0.5 FSF-style
page navigation, and the fact that the first "Ruby" code I saw defines its
own "abstract_method" declaration, which makes me think that the Ruby
"version" is more like a Babelfish translation of the Java version. (My
web site: Now in Senegalese!) OK, so I'm more than a little turned off.
Probably bears reading anyway, though.

* SICP, Programming Language Pragmatics (Scott), Purely Functional Data
Structures (Okasaki), Concepts, Techniques and Models (Van Roy, Haridi):
These look like must-reads!

···

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:57:08 +0900, Ilmari Heikkinen wrote:

On 9/27/07, Jay Levitt <jay+news@jay.fm> wrote:

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
think about data?

--
Jay Levitt |
Boston, MA | My character doesn't like it when they
Faster: jay at jay dot fm | cry or shout or hit.
http://www.jay.fm | - Kristoffer

12

A big -1 on that book. It's been discussed here before.

It's part of a series in which the author treats different languages
as plug-in replacements. It's not at all a good ruby resource.

···

On 9/26/07, David B. Williams <david@cybersprocket.com> wrote:

Jay Levitt wrote:
> So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
> think about data?

If you want a book that deals with Ruby and the fundamentals you would
learn in any introduction to data structures and algorithms course, try
this:

brpreiss.com

--
Rick DeNatale

My blog on Ruby
http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/

13

Yeah, the obvious "blind" translation turned me off the book too. I'd
actually start by reading "How to Design Programs" (scheme, but very
well designed and written), and then try doing some of the exercises
both in scheme and in ruby.

martin

···

On 9/27/07, Jay Levitt <jay+news@jay.fm> wrote:

* Data Structures and Algorithms (Preiss): I'm a little turned off by the
hard-to-read pixelated LaTex GIFs, the lack of a print version or even the
right to download it, the lack of a solutions manual, the web-0.5 FSF-style
page navigation, and the fact that the first "Ruby" code I saw defines its
own "abstract_method" declaration, which makes me think that the Ruby
"version" is more like a Babelfish translation of the Java version. (My
web site: Now in Senegalese!) OK, so I'm more than a little turned off.
Probably bears reading anyway, though.

14

I've got to agree here. I am/was friends with all four of the GOF and
I hope that the three survivors won't be offended, but it's really a
C++ book, and I fear that it has done as much harm as good for those
trying to apply it to languages with less draconian (or is it baroque)
design. Although Ralph put in some Smalltalk references they were
mostly in the way of commentary when they were trying to do similar
things in C++.

Patterns are all about picking paths due to the problem and situation
at hand, and for better or worse, the programming language is a big
part of the situation at hand. Most of the GOF book deals with the
issues raised by statically typed oo languages, and aren't as portable
as one might think.

···

On 9/27/07, Jay Levitt <jay+news@jay.fm> wrote:

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:57:08 +0900, Ilmari Heikkinen wrote:

> On 9/27/07, Jay Levitt <jay+news@jay.fm> wrote:
>
>> So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
>> think about data?

Wow! Thanks for the many great recommendations, folks. Some comments:

* GoF: Yes, I have this one, and it's a classic; I've actually read both of
the Alexander books cover-to-cover while I was building a house. But I
also find that many of the GoF patterns are either unnecessary or greatly
simplified in Ruby. I know there's at least one project to codify the Ruby
equivalents, and I look forward to more work in that area.

--
Rick DeNatale

My blog on Ruby
http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/

15

Indeed I just read through it today and it is not good.

The html is horrible too. Contacted the author and he was pretty "whatever" about it because the LaTeX2html software is apparently no longer being updated...
So he's obviously too lazy to pick up xhtml and css in an afternoon and / or simply use one of the languages he writes about with one of the many converters in those language to produce a better site.

He's pretty wrong about Ruby though. He unfortunately describes everything as if it's C++ but Ruby is whole different beast. Some things are similar in ways that any programming language or OOP paradigm are similar, but every language has its own vernacular and for good reason: they're different and require different approaches.

There are better exercises in data structures out there, and definitely better discussions of Ruby.

···

On Sep 27, 2007, at 4:18 PM, Rick DeNatale wrote:

On 9/26/07, David B. Williams <david@cybersprocket.com> wrote:

Jay Levitt wrote:

So - any recommended reading? What books will help me change the way I
think about data?

If you want a book that deals with Ruby and the fundamentals you would
learn in any introduction to data structures and algorithms course, try
this:

brpreiss.com

A big -1 on that book. It's been discussed here before.

It's part of a series in which the author treats different languages
as plug-in replacements. It's not at all a good ruby resource.

16

Patterns are all about picking paths due to the problem and situation
at hand, and for better or worse, the programming language is a big
part of the situation at hand. Most of the GOF book deals with the
issues raised by statically typed oo languages, and aren't as portable
as one might think.

+2

The language itself IS a pattern/structure that will determine and/or enable patterns and structures!
Frameworks/libraries will tend to enforce patterns and structures.

Ruby is pretty open and fully object-oriented by design, while enabling you to do procedural things to objects.

Rails is an example of a framework that really establishes and enforces particular patterns and structures.

Simply by using code by others and using the language, you'll find a lot of these things quickly in Ruby.
Some things are well established patterns in C / C++ books (searching & sorting algorithms) but they don't always make sense as Ruby since Ruby provides mechanisms that would be oh-so-much boiler plate code in lower-level languages.

17

I'd submit the issues have more to do with the lack of "nice"
higher-order functions than they do with object orientation or
static typing.

For instance: the Visitor pattern suddenly becomes trivial when
you have HoFs for traversal (Enumerable#each, anyone?).

-mental

···

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:31:47 +0900, "Rick DeNatale" <rick.denatale@gmail.com> wrote:

Most of the GOF book deals with the issues raised by statically
typed oo languages, and aren't as portable as one might think.

18

I had *exactly* the same problem with EasyScript.[1]

[1] The best word processor available for a Commodore 64, bar none.

···

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:43:24 +0900, John Joyce wrote:

The html is horrible too. Contacted the author and he was pretty
"whatever" about it because the LaTeX2html software is apparently no
longer being updated...

--
Jay Levitt |
Boston, MA | My character doesn't like it when they
Faster: jay at jay dot fm | cry or shout or hit.
http://www.jay.fm | - Kristoffer

19

<snip>

I've got to agree here. I am/was friends with all four of the GOF and
I hope that the three survivors won't be offended, but it's really a
C++ book, and I fear that it has done as much harm as good for those
trying to apply it to languages with less draconian (or is it baroque)
design. Although Ralph put in some Smalltalk references they were
mostly in the way of commentary when they were trying to do similar
things in C++.

Patterns are all about picking paths due to the problem and situation
at hand, and for better or worse, the programming language is a big
part of the situation at hand. Most of the GOF book deals with the
issues raised by statically typed oo languages, and aren't as portable
as one might think.

I know I might be off a little bit, but I'd rather recommend a book of
a different friend of your's "Smalltalk Best Practices" by Kent Beck.
I know it is not about Design Patterns but Micro Patterns, I know it
is not about Ruby but about Smalltalk.
Anyway Kent calls Ruby Smalltalk in disguise for some reasons, I am of
course referring to the "Smalltalk beating Java and being called Ruby"
saying.

Honestly I am only through the half of the book but there is just no
item so far I would not apply to Ruby.

This book is a must read anyway, gotta read *all* of his books :wink:

Cheers
Robert

···

On 9/27/07, Rick DeNatale <rick.denatale@gmail.com> wrote:
--
I'm an atheist and that's it. I believe there's nothing we can know
except that we should be kind to each other and do what we can for
other people.
-- Katharine Hepburn

20

Correction: SpeedScript.

···

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:26:42 -0400, Jay Levitt wrote:

I had *exactly* the same problem with EasyScript.[1]

[1] The best word processor available for a Commodore 64, bar none.

--
Jay Levitt |
Boston, MA | My character doesn't like it when they
Faster: jay at jay dot fm | cry or shout or hit.
http://www.jay.fm | - Kristoffer