Any YARV pre-questions in RubyConf2004?

ruby-talk
1

Hi,

I will show presentation about "YARV - Yet Another RubyVM"
in RubyConf2004.

But I have no enough topic to talk about that for 40 mins full.

Does anyone have any question about YARV or something I can
answer? If you gime me that, I'll prepare to answer that.

(And because I can't listen English well, answering direct
is too hard for me :X)

I look forward to seeing you > RubyConf2004 attendances

Regards,

···

--
// SASADA Koichi at atdot dot net
//

# If no ideas, I will talk about making of Rubyist Magazine.

2

SASADA Koichi wrote:

Hi,

I will show presentation about "YARV - Yet Another RubyVM"
in RubyConf2004.

But I have no enough topic to talk about that for 40 mins full.

Unless you've given this presentation before, time estimates can be hard to get right. You may end up running longer than you think.

And if you don't use a full 40 minutes, it may balance out if the other speakers are running longer than their alloted time.

Does anyone have any question about YARV or something I can
answer? If you gime me that, I'll prepare to answer that.

It seems to me that just the general idea of a VM would take a fair amount of time to explain, particularly if he VM is for a dynamic language. Anyway, here are some questions:

Why bother?

Where do you begin when designing a VM?

What are the options?

Are there some common VM architectures?

Why not just target the Java or .Net (or compatible) VMs?

How do you handle dynamic class changes (for example, adding a new method to String at run time)?

What are the really hard parts?

What surprised you?

James

3

I won't be at RubyConf (unfortunately), but I've still got one
question: Does the structure of YARVM allow a gradual transition from
the standard Ruby node structure to JITed code, or is it a Big Bang
approach?

Eivind.

···

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 05:27:18 +0900, SASADA Koichi <ko1@atdot.net> wrote:

Hi,

I will show presentation about "YARV - Yet Another RubyVM"
in RubyConf2004.

But I have no enough topic to talk about that for 40 mins full.

Does anyone have any question about YARV or something I can
answer? If you gime me that, I'll prepare to answer that.

4

But I have no enough topic to talk about that for 40 mins full.

i've got a large number of questions that you may find useful :slight_smile:

Does anyone have any question about YARV or something I can
answer? If you gime me that, I'll prepare to answer that.

here's the beginning. i'll think of somemore to ask in the
coming days :slight_smile:

   will the standard library be written in ruby or c?

   what is the time frame you are aiming to keep to?
      any idea when you'll see results?

   what ruby code can yarv currently execute?

   do you plan to perform code/bytecode optimisations
   during execution or only at compile time? if so,
   what sort of optimisation do you think you will
   be able to offer?

(And because I can't listen English well, answering direct
is too hard for me :X)

:confused: i should practice my japanese (i know none :/) then as even
native english speakers sometimes have difficulty understand me :frowning:

I look forward to seeing you > RubyConf2004 attendances

unfortunately won't be able to make it :frowning:
i hope that next year we can meet!

Alex

···

On Tue, Sep 28, 2004 at 05:27:18AM +0900, SASADA Koichi wrote:

5

SASADA Koichi ha scritto:

Hi,

I will show presentation about "YARV - Yet Another RubyVM"
in RubyConf2004.

But I have no enough topic to talk about that for 40 mins full.

Does anyone have any question about YARV or something I can
answer? If you gime me that, I'll prepare to answer that.

thank you for yarv and for asking our feedback.. emh.. feedforward maybe..

I'd ask:
- what is yarv aiming to optimize? method calls, proc calls, yielding, numerical stuff and how much (say, 20 times faster callcc)
- is yarv somewhat similar to something else? (so that I can look up documentation of concepts even if you don't explain them yourself widely)
- is the yarv design open to further enhancements? I don't even really know what this mean, to be fair :slight_smile: but I think something like "well, we can explore this kind of optimization in the future"
- can yarv support the existing 'infrastructure' stuff like set_trace_func, debug.rb and such ?
- is yarv general enough to support something else? (remembering some irc chatting about scheme :slight_smile:

6

... or Parrot?

James Edward Gray II

···

On Sep 27, 2004, at 4:29 PM, James Britt wrote:

Why not just target the Java or .Net (or compatible) VMs?

7

Hi --

···

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, James Britt wrote:

SASADA Koichi wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I will show presentation about "YARV - Yet Another RubyVM"
> in RubyConf2004.
>
> But I have no enough topic to talk about that for 40 mins full.

Unless you've given this presentation before, time estimates can be hard
to get right. You may end up running longer than you think.

And if you don't use a full 40 minutes, it may balance out if the other
speakers are running longer than their alloted time.

Perish the thought! :slight_smile:

David

--
David A. Black
dblack@wobblini.net

8

Hi,

···

In message "Re: Any YARV pre-questions in RubyConf2004?" on Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:29:08 +0900, James Britt <jamesUNDERBARb@neurogami.com> writes:

But I have no enough topic to talk about that for 40 mins full.

Unless you've given this presentation before, time estimates can be hard
to get right. You may end up running longer than you think.

Don't underestimate the language barrier. :wink:
I know exactly what he feels.

Be nice to him, please, conference attenders.

              matz.

9

James Britt <jamesUNDERBARb@neurogami.com>
Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:29:08 +0900 / Re: Any YARV pre-questions in RubyConf2004?

Hi,
Thank you for many replies! > ruby-talk rubyist

Unless you've given this presentation before, time estimates can be hard
to get right. You may end up running longer than you think.

I have done sometimes, but only once in English (that first speach is very poor :X)

It seems to me that just the general idea of a VM would take a fair
amount of time to explain, particularly if he VM is for a dynamic
language. Anyway, here are some questions:

Why bother?
Where do you begin when designing a VM?
What are the options?
Are there some common VM architectures?
Why not just target the Java or .Net (or compatible) VMs?
How do you handle dynamic class changes (for example, adding a new
method to String at run time)?
What are the really hard parts?
What surprised you?

I'll talk about these.

Thanks,

···

--
// SASADA Koichi at atdot dot net
//

10

Eivind Eklund <eeklund@gmail.com>
Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:41:05 +0900 / Re: Any YARV pre-questions in RubyConf2004?

Hi,

I won't be at RubyConf (unfortunately), but I've still got one
question: Does the structure of YARVM allow a gradual transition from
the standard Ruby node structure to JITed code, or is it a Big Bang
approach?

I use ruby interpreters parser (in C interface) and compile this AST to
my bytecodes (in C).

JIT compiler isn't available now. (only planning)
AOT compiler seems more easier to implement. (bytecode -> C code)

···

--
// SASADA Koichi at atdot dot net
//

11

David A. Black wrote:

Hi --

SASADA Koichi wrote:

Hi,

I will show presentation about "YARV - Yet Another RubyVM"
in RubyConf2004.

But I have no enough topic to talk about that for 40 mins full.

Unless you've given this presentation before, time estimates can be hard to get right. You may end up running longer than you think.

And if you don't use a full 40 minutes, it may balance out if the other speakers are running longer than their alloted time.

Perish the thought! :slight_smile:

:slight_smile: I'm actually kind of worried. I did a preview demonstration of my presentation to my local RUG, and it went for almost exactly an hour...

Have your tomatoes handy, if I start going overtime. :slight_smile:

···

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, James Britt wrote:

--
Jamis Buck
jgb3@email.byu.edu
http://www.jamisbuck.org/jamis

12

Speaking for everyone I think, we'll be honored to have him as our
guest at RubyConf. We value all of the attendees, but there's
something special about "original" Rubyists coming _all the way_ from
Japan.

We'll miss you this year, Matz.

Chad

···

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:49:21 +0900, Yukihiro Matsumoto <matz@ruby-lang.org> wrote:

Hi,

In message "Re: Any YARV pre-questions in RubyConf2004?" > on Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:29:08 +0900, James Britt <jamesUNDERBARb@neurogami.com> writes:

>> But I have no enough topic to talk about that for 40 mins full.
>
>Unless you've given this presentation before, time estimates can be hard
>to get right. You may end up running longer than you think.

Don't underestimate the language barrier. :wink:
I know exactly what he feels.

Be nice to him, please, conference attenders.

13

Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

Hi,

>> But I have no enough topic to talk about that for 40 mins full.
>
>Unless you've given this presentation before, time estimates can be hard >to get right. You may end up running longer than you think.

Don't underestimate the language barrier. :wink:
I know exactly what he feels.

Be nice to him, please, conference attenders.

Well, OK, since you asked so nicely.

:slight_smile:

Having people pose questions here in advance should be a big help, so if folks can think of anything, please speak up.

I saw Dan Sugalski give a talk in Parrot at local Perl users group, and the topic of VMs can get quite deep.

Selection of architecture, byte code set, the compilation process; stuff I used to know more about, once upon a college time, but has faded from memory

It's going to be a challenge as it is, with the language barrier, so any suggested topic or question should be quite useful. It's often hard to know in advance just how familiar your audience is with your topic, and it's tough to walk the line between stating the obvious and baffling the crowd.

As for my questions, while I think a VM talk should probably explain why one would bother, I also think we all have god ideas as to why this is a Good Thing. And I'd be curious to know why the design does or doesn't target an existing or expected VM/byte-code-set. But really I want to understand the thinking process that lets one take an interpreted language and move it to a VM.

James

···

In message "Re: Any YARV pre-questions in RubyC onf2004?" > on Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:29:08 +0900, James Britt <jamesUNDERBARb@neurogami.com> writes:

14

SASADA Koichi ha scritto:

AOT compiler seems more easier to implement. (bytecode -> C code)

then another question:
- how fast this would be?
IIRC there was a python2c compiler, but it meet the same barriers that the python VM hits, like loosing lot of time in method lookup. It has the advantage of obfuscate the code, for those who want it, but little performance gain.
I remeber this from reading the StarKiller paper (python->c++ compiler+type_inferencer)

15

Hi,

···

In message "Re: Any YARV pre-questions in RubyConf2004?" on Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:06:14 +0900, Chad Fowler <chadfowler@gmail.com> writes:

We'll miss you this year, Matz.

I miss you all too. But I shouldn't miss my wife and baby this year.
I hope I can see you guys next year.

              matz.

16

Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

Hi,

>We'll miss you this year, Matz.

I miss you all too. But I shouldn't miss my wife and baby this year.
I hope I can see you guys next year.

In Toronto!

Right, folks?

:slight_smile:

James

···

In message "Re: Any YARV pre-questions in RubyConf2004?" > on Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:06:14 +0900, Chad Fowler <chadfowler@gmail.com> writes:

17

Hi --

···

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, James Britt wrote:

Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

> Hi,
>
> In message "Re: Any YARV pre-questions in RubyConf2004?" > > on Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:06:14 +0900, Chad Fowler <chadfowler@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >We'll miss you this year, Matz.
>
> I miss you all too. But I shouldn't miss my wife and baby this year.
> I hope I can see you guys next year.

In Toronto!

Right, folks?

Probably not. The west coast comes up in the rotation next year :slight_smile:

David

--
David A. Black
dblack@wobblini.net

18

David A. Black wrote:

In Toronto!

Right, folks?

Probably not. The west coast comes up in the rotation next year :slight_smile:

Everything's west of somewhere.

Hal

19

I’ll push for 2006 :slight_smile: I might be able to get some corporate
sponsorship on board for then, too :slight_smile: (I think I might be close to
convincing work to use Ruby as our build/test scripting language. This
may ultimately involve porting to AS/400 and NetWare… :slight_smile: )

-austin

···

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:44:37 +0900, Hal Fulton hal9000@hypermetrics.com wrote:

David A. Black wrote:

In Toronto!
Right, folks?
Probably not. The west coast comes up in the rotation next year :slight_smile:
Everything’s west of somewhere.

–
Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com
* Alternate: austin@halostatue.ca
: as of this email, I have [ 6 ] Gmail invitations

20

Austin Ziegler ha scritto:

use Ruby as our build/test scripting language. This
may ultimately involve porting to AS/400 and NetWare... :slight_smile: )

join the damagecontrol army :slight_smile: