Well, I think such things should come AFTER they get to know each other, if
it is needed, on a personal basis.
But that is the point, the matches don't know each other is this is only a starting point for them. I completely agree though that this is a personal decision for them to decide if they need this or want to formalize any of the points they discuss.
I think grown up people on this list don't really need such a phase before
every email they send.
Although I have only been lurking on this list for a couple of months, I have been totally impressed with the expertise of the Ruby community, the help offered and the lack of flames. None of what I have offered today I think should get in the way of this.
I'll change the scope of when this agreement could be used by pointing out that if potential mentors / mentees would fill out their respective sections in advance when seeking a match, you would then have a starting point to work with to make matches based on skills/needs, locale/language, availability or anything else they wish to disclose. Currently, people are volunteering but you don't know much about them. When a match is made, both parties can decide if they want to make a combined agreement or not based on their own comfort levels. I certainly never envisioned this as a process that happens before every email sent.
Now to plagiarize Ed Borasky, it's my time to be <ducking>.
I agree. But I think even when one is lead in the wrong direction
because of a mistake by the mentor, that direction might be a better
one than what he would get on the list.
I made a mistake there, but I gave her a template to think in, a way
to transition her thoughts from something she is familiar with. She
would have eventually found out exactly how wrong I was, but still it
would have taken her forward.
And when I opened our discussion, it was so that I would get such
feedback. I thought that I might have mistakes and although the
discussion itself is better in a group <= 4, it'd be great if someone
would later correct them
So thanks
Aur
···
On 2/20/07, James Edward Gray II <james@grayproductions.net> wrote:
One of the downsides of a two-person chat, as opposed to asking a
question here is that you don't get as much input. I'm not saying
that makes the mentoring idea bad, but I do think it's something we
want to keep in mind.
For example, in that transcript, Aur says:
"YAML is really like XML... You can, if you want, do whatever XML
thing you wanted but in YAML syntax..."
I know the Ruby community is very pro YAML and really down on XML,
but the fact remains that the have different purposes. XML is a
markup language. It is for marking up content. YAML is a data
description language. It's primarily used for serializing data into
a human readable format. These are different purposes.
If you have trouble understanding the difference, try converting the
home page of your web site into a reasonable YAML format. It's a
good exercise.
I would likely favor XML as a format for my résumé, though that point
is certainly debatable.
I agree, with a need for input that goes beyond the scope of a 1-on-1 chat.
I think that it's a situational basis; there will be times when I'm going to
come to the list, times I'll go to someone off-list.
For example, I have been debating whether or not to post this here, or on
the Ruby on Rails forum, because I'm not quite sure that this fits into the
scope of just regular Ruby, although I'm sure it could. It's more of a
database-thinking type of a deal... I consider this more of my home than I
do the Ruby on Rails forum, having only posted there a time or two.
I'm working with a few concepts that would be dealing with databases. (As
seen in the convo between Aur and I.) I'm really struggling with wrapping
my head around databases. "What information should go into which table,"
type of stuff. That has led me to search on concepts dealing with
databases... I was going to ask if anyone could point me in the direction of
some good newbie database conceptual type material. I've got a couple of
documents that deal with PHP and MySql, and some of them talk about database
programming and application development. While I know that I don't have to
be the MySQLMaster, (or MySQLMistress, as the case would be), I think that
if I'm going to be tinkering with databases, I need to have an understanding
of them.
That request for a point in the right direction isn't exactly Ruby related,
isn't exactly RoR related, but more database related. Being that I feel
comfy here, I'm probably not going to go over to a MySQL forum and ask for
resources (although it would probably help), because a) I'm here, and b) the
Ruby community would probably be more likely to point me in the right
direction for MySQL resources that may relate more to Ruby.
In any case, as usual, I am rambling. It's been a long day and I've been
reading and studying for the past 8 hours. My brain hurts.
···
On 2/19/07, James Edward Gray II <james@grayproductions.net> wrote:
One of the downsides of a two-person chat, as opposed to asking a
question here is that you don't get as much input. I'm not saying
that makes the mentoring idea bad, but I do think it's something we
want to keep in mind.
For example, in that transcript, Aur says:
"YAML is really like XML... You can, if you want, do whatever XML
thing you wanted but in YAML syntax..."
I know the Ruby community is very pro YAML and really down on XML,
but the fact remains that the have different purposes. XML is a
markup language. It is for marking up content. YAML is a data
description language. It's primarily used for serializing data into
a human readable format. These are different purposes.
If you have trouble understanding the difference, try converting the
home page of your web site into a reasonable YAML format. It's a
good exercise.
I would likely favor XML as a format for my résumé, though that point
is certainly debatable.
I asked for the volunteers to post to-list. That is also temporary.
Newbies should post directly to me (until someone sets up a matching
service).
Unfortunately, I do not have the resources to set up such a service and
that's why I asked in the first post if someone volunteers to.
In the meantime, I am your humble neighborhood match-up service.
James, do you have time to adopt a more experienced user or two yourself?
It's not a very active position, just an email of advice once in a while.
Aur Saraf
···
On 2/14/07, James Edward Gray II <james@grayproductions.net> wrote:
On Feb 14, 2007, at 3:31 PM, SonOfLilit wrote:
> First, please send these mails to the list. That is what will generate
> interest and hopefully turn this into more than an email-coordinated
> project.
I like this movement and want to see it be successful, but I think
swamping the list with a match-up service is the wrong idea. I
believe it's time to consider providing an external where parties on
both sides can express interest.
Although I have only been lurking on this list for a couple of months, I
have been totally impressed with the expertise of the Ruby community,
the help offered and the lack of flames. None of what I have offered
today I think should get in the way of this.
I agree with Jim. That is a fact in the Ruby community.
I wander a lot in Ruby's IRC channel at Freenode. I believe that the
easiest way of a newbie getting help is to just ask. If the person
doesn't want to just shoot the question out in the open, we could have
a few frequent IRC users that will help them through private messages.
Having a channel full of mentors is somehow better than binding a
newbie to only one person.
Yeah, I think we are really doing fine. We wrote nearly 10 mails
already, and since my wife happens to be a Ruby newbie too, I just set
up a mailing list for the tree of us and I think everybody is enjoying
the whole thing a lot.
Thanks for the great idea! I hope the others are doing well, too.
Shalom,
Peter"
I must say I'm proud.
I also like the idea of working in groups of three. Why? Because three
people generate so little traffic that one can easily follow it
without feeling any burden, and listening to the problems of one
fellow newbie and their solutions can advance one a lot. A group of
three would also still feel personal, unlike a ML.
It's the same reason I subscribe to many low-traffic blogs but almost
never to high traffic ones. I don't have time for a whole lot of
traffic (e.g. reading everything in the ruby mailing list) but I can
afford reading a short post every two weeks that would teach me
something nifty.
This should be handled, however, by the mentors, if and when they
decide they want to do it this way. There's no need, currently, for
infrastructure to handle this.
I happen to be fairly new to ruby, and I think the idea of having a
mentoring system or outright being able to easily connect with fellow
n00bz to the language would be a great thing.
As Chad mentioned:
"I think a "study group" model is one of the most effective means of
learning, when people are actually interested in the subject matter.
While mentors are nice, I don't think they're really necessary -- with a
small group of interested people working together and using each other
as resources, the group becomes the "mentor". This helps keep the
learning process honest (nobody's going to be able to really use a
mentor as a crutch when the "mentor" is a bunch of similarly skilled
people who will also be seeking that person's help), and ensures that
people can come to someone when stuck without feeling like he or she is
imposing on an expert with better things to do. Rather than feeling
impeded by an authority-figure relationship, peers can interact and
figure things out together. That's the theory, anyway."
This is the right idea by far. I most definitely manage to learn
better when I'm being lead by fellow people with the same goal, and
keeping the group really small (3-5) allows for the individual helping
of each other without eating your whole day. I also agree with Chad's
not liking actual mentors because of the potential for using them as a
crutch. Things like this give more gratification at the least when I,
as a group, figure something out. Makes for a great ego boost ("Hey, I
learned something!") and reinforces what you learn (since the problem
will be going through your head for at least 10 minutes, the solution
is more likely to stick).
Ahwell, just my own thoughts on this. I'd love to see it be done, so
please keep me in the loop! I think all we need is some mailing list
software and some like-minded newbies. And yes, I can help provide the
server.
Hi there. I've been coding with Ruby for oh, 5+ years now, and I'd be
willing to take newbie questions.
However, if I can offer my $0.02, if I were a total newbie I think I'd be at
*least* as intimidated by emailing some random person from a Wiki page as I
would be by posting to a high-traffic mailing list. I think it would be
good to have a single, well-known address that newbies can email to be
hooked up with a mentor.
Perhaps there could be a page on the Wiki where the available mentors update
their current status (e.g. "Bored, send me newbies!", "Busy but available
for one or two newbs", "Swamped"); and a coordinator who would take the
applications and assign them based on availability.
···
On 2/19/07, SonOfLilit <sonoflilit@gmail.com> wrote:
No. To set up with someone, go to the wiki, find someone that seems
good and email him.
I asked for the volunteers to post to-list. That is also temporary.
I would like to volunteer my help to mentor a person or two. I have been using Ruby for about two years now. About 50% of my Ruby is with Rails, the other 50% is general system administration stuff (e.g. file management, calling external programs, etc).
Samantha wrote:
> http://www.rubynewbie.org is available. Once I have gainful employment,
> I'm
> willing to buy the domain and put it to work for this purpose.
>
I have ordered this domain for now, just to hold it. I can transfer it to someone else if we need to. I also have a server we can use to host the website on if someone would like to create one (or redirect it to a RubyForge project page).
In my short (but pleasant) experience with programming, as a newbie I
started looking for resources, forums and sources of information. Ruby
was my first language, and what made it special is that, although
there are not too many libraries or information in English, this
groups made (my) learning experience good.
I cannot say I'm a total newbie, but I think part of that learning is
to search, to ask. That's what the forums are for, and to make that
process 'private' may benefit one person, but I think it will private
that information to others. I cannot say I'm a newbie, but a lot of
what I've learnt has been through this forum. (Yeah, I'm a lurker too)
Not that is not a good idea, but it has to be more focused on oslve
specific doubts or give more extensive help to someone. I find it a
great idea to be tutor of some people of the same language, for
example.
Probably I'm not the best person to say it, but it's my point of view.
···
On Feb 15, 1:23 am, |MKSM| <mksm.s...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Although I have only been lurking on this list for a couple of months, I
> have been totally impressed with the expertise of the Ruby community,
> the help offered and the lack of flames. None of what I have offered
> today I think should get in the way of this.
I agree with Jim. That is a fact in the Ruby community.
I wander a lot in Ruby's IRC channel at Freenode. I believe that the
easiest way of a newbie getting help is to just ask. If the person
doesn't want to just shoot the question out in the open, we could have
a few frequent IRC users that will help them through private messages.
Having a channel full of mentors is somehow better than binding a
newbie to only one person.
Hopefully soon there will be a ruby program that will do that.
Do you think I should return to my role as coordinator instead of
letting business run alone in the wiki?
Aur
···
On 2/19/07, Avdi Grimm <avdi@avdi.org> wrote:
On 2/19/07, SonOfLilit <sonoflilit@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No. To set up with someone, go to the wiki, find someone that seems
> good and email him.
>
Hi there. I've been coding with Ruby for oh, 5+ years now, and I'd be
willing to take newbie questions.
However, if I can offer my $0.02, if I were a total newbie I think I'd be at
*least* as intimidated by emailing some random person from a Wiki page as I
would be by posting to a high-traffic mailing list. I think it would be
good to have a single, well-known address that newbies can email to be
hooked up with a mentor.
Perhaps there could be a page on the Wiki where the available mentors update
their current status (e.g. "Bored, send me newbies!", "Busy but available
for one or two newbs", "Swamped"); and a coordinator who would take the
applications and assign them based on availability.
Sorry, just had to. I'm saying this because it really excites me, the idea.
···
On 2/19/07, nodenator@gmail.com <nodenator@gmail.com> wrote:
I happen to be fairly new to ruby, and I think the idea of having a
mentoring system or outright being able to easily connect with fellow
n00bz to the language would be a great thing.
As Chad mentioned:
"I think a "study group" model is one of the most effective means of
learning, when people are actually interested in the subject matter.
While mentors are nice, I don't think they're really necessary -- with a
small group of interested people working together and using each other
as resources, the group becomes the "mentor". This helps keep the
learning process honest (nobody's going to be able to really use a
mentor as a crutch when the "mentor" is a bunch of similarly skilled
people who will also be seeking that person's help), and ensures that
people can come to someone when stuck without feeling like he or she is
imposing on an expert with better things to do. Rather than feeling
impeded by an authority-figure relationship, peers can interact and
figure things out together. That's the theory, anyway."
This is the right idea by far. I most definitely manage to learn
better when I'm being lead by fellow people with the same goal, and
keeping the group really small (3-5) allows for the individual helping
of each other without eating your whole day. I also agree with Chad's
not liking actual mentors because of the potential for using them as a
crutch. Things like this give more gratification at the least when I,
as a group, figure something out. Makes for a great ego boost ("Hey, I
learned something!") and reinforces what you learn (since the problem
will be going through your head for at least 10 minutes, the solution
is more likely to stick).
Ahwell, just my own thoughts on this. I'd love to see it be done, so
please keep me in the loop! I think all we need is some mailing list
software and some like-minded newbies. And yes, I can help provide the
server.
On 2/14/07, James Edward Gray II <james@grayproductions.net> wrote:
On Feb 14, 2007, at 3:47 PM, SonOfLilit wrote:
> James, do you have time to adopt a more experienced user or two
> yourself?
> It's not a very active position, just an email of advice once in a
> while.
"Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet. Then all
things are at risk."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
···
On 2/15/07, Eric Davis <edavis10@gmail.com> wrote:
SonOfLilit wrote:
> Indeed.
>
> I asked for the volunteers to post to-list. That is also temporary.
I would like to volunteer my help to mentor a person or two. I have
been using Ruby for about two years now. About 50% of my Ruby is with
Rails, the other 50% is general system administration stuff (e.g. file
management, calling external programs, etc).
Samantha wrote:
> http://www.rubynewbie.org is available. Once I have gainful employment,
> I'm
> willing to buy the domain and put it to work for this purpose.
>
I have ordered this domain for now, just to hold it. I can transfer it
to someone else if we need to. I also have a server we can use to host
the website on if someone would like to create one (or redirect it to a
RubyForge project page).
It is focused on answering trivial questions and on the kind of dialog and
guidance that will more often develop in 1:1 than in a group.
As I already said, issues which are fit for ruby-talk should still be
discussed in ruby-talk.
More than that, I would like there to be a system that records those
mentoring sessions who's participants agree to be public and allows public
browsing and searching of them. With that, I think that instead of
decreasing, the amount of available material for Ruby learners/practicers
will dramatically INCREASE.
Now if only someone had the time/will to build such a system...
Aur Saraf
···
On 2/16/07, CHubas <CHubas7@gmail.com> wrote:
On Feb 15, 1:23 am, |MKSM| <mksm.s...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Although I have only been lurking on this list for a couple of months,
I
> > have been totally impressed with the expertise of the Ruby community,
> > the help offered and the lack of flames. None of what I have offered
> > today I think should get in the way of this.
>
> I agree with Jim. That is a fact in the Ruby community.
>
> I wander a lot in Ruby's IRC channel at Freenode. I believe that the
> easiest way of a newbie getting help is to just ask. If the person
> doesn't want to just shoot the question out in the open, we could have
> a few frequent IRC users that will help them through private messages.
>
> Having a channel full of mentors is somehow better than binding a
> newbie to only one person.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ricardo Amorim
I agree with him somehow.
In my short (but pleasant) experience with programming, as a newbie I
started looking for resources, forums and sources of information. Ruby
was my first language, and what made it special is that, although
there are not too many libraries or information in English, this
groups made (my) learning experience good.
I cannot say I'm a total newbie, but I think part of that learning is
to search, to ask. That's what the forums are for, and to make that
process 'private' may benefit one person, but I think it will private
that information to others. I cannot say I'm a newbie, but a lot of
what I've learnt has been through this forum. (Yeah, I'm a lurker too)
Not that is not a good idea, but it has to be more focused on oslve
specific doubts or give more extensive help to someone. I find it a
great idea to be tutor of some people of the same language, for
example.
Probably I'm not the best person to say it, but it's my point of view.
Sorry, just had to. I'm saying this because it really excites me, the
idea.
Well, so far I have not received any emails although my link is there on
the Wiki. Is there not enough interest yet, or maybe word has not gotten
around yet, or do I personally scare newbies off somehow? I don't bite
I think *someone* should do it, and no, I'm not volunteering
If you do go with a technical solution, a repurposed bug-tracking system
would probably do the trick. The main thing is to make sure mentoring
requests don't fall through the cracks, which bugtrackers are pretty good
at. Maybe set it up so it emails all the people who have registered as
potential mentors whenever an application is made, and whoever decides they
have the time can mark it "accepted".
···
On 2/19/07, SonOfLilit <sonoflilit@gmail.com> wrote:
Until yesterday, that was me.
Hopefully soon there will be a ruby program that will do that.
Do you think I should return to my role as coordinator instead of
letting business run alone in the wiki?
