We shall create a Ruby joke, BTW Ed, did the lobster like the movie?
R.
···
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 6:14 AM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:
On Thu, 2008-08-21 at 00:29 +0900, Clinton D. Judy wrote:
Could you make a cute lobster? Or you could go the opposite direction, with an extreme lobster! With razor-sharp claws and all.
-----Original Message-----
From: shevegen@linuxmail.org [mailto:shevegen@linuxmail.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 11:22 AM
To: ruby-talk ML
Subject: Re: A Mascot...
I suggest a lobster as mascot.
So this guy gets on the plane with a lobster in a box. I ask the guy,
"where'd you get the lobster" and he says, "I bought it in the airport
-- I'm taking it home for dinner"
And the lobster says, "I've already had dinner -- take me to a movie"
I think the girl is cute, but especially the nude version is a bit
patronizing. We should think about what female programmers will think
of Ruby upon encountering that. I'm sure the feelings will be varied,
but I suspect that'd seem a bit offensive to at least some people.
How many of you male
programmers would like a large, muscular, naked man as our Ruby logo?
Why is everyone so focused on the nude drawing? There _are_ *other*
drawings on that page you know! In particular, this one embodies all
the cuteness of Ruby-chan without being offensive to Westerners:
We should appreciate the fact that, in the spirit of the Ruby language's
TIMTOWTDI philosophy, Yoshida-san has drawn *several* variations of the
mascot on our behalf. Choose the one that suits you best and be happy!
enjoy if drawings.find {|d| self.acceptable? d }
NOT:
complain unless drawings.all? {|d| self.acceptable? d }
ma-ttaku!
···
On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 6:14 PM, Rick DeNatale <rick.denatale@gmail.com> > wrote:
I don't know much about marketing (which has nothing to do with
advertising), but IMHO the ruby image itself represents very well the
language and the community. Among programmers, when we see a ruby we
immediately identify it.
I think Ruby community doesn't need a mascot FOR ITSELF. A mascot
should represent whatever it represents outside of the organisation,
and should identify people in. A penguin can represent a lot of
things, but only Tux represents Linux, and is easily identifiable by
lots of people, even if they are not part of the Linux community.
I'm in favor of a Ruby mascot. Community will then adopt it or discard
it on the run, nothing is broken by trying. The worst that can happen
is that nobody uses it and it <<gracefully degrades>>.
Oh, and no snails. I don't quite like the idea of the girl either, but
that's just me. Actually I think _why's foxes are a good candidate for
a mascot (they have the bonus of being already recognized by at least
many people among the community)
I like it! :D, but If you haven´t read all post before please do it,
3. Ruby already have one ( an pretty manga-girl, with a nude version!
cool,
isn´t it?).
I think the girl is cute, but especially the nude version is a bit
patronizing. We should think about what female programmers will think
of Ruby upon encountering that. I'm sure the feelings will be varied,
but I suspect that'd seem a bit offensive to at least some people.
Well FWIW, I just showed Ruby to a female coworker, and she thought that:
1) She was cute and
2) The nude version showed that she was both flexible, and quite
appropriate for Ruby the language, agile!
I think it's interesting what the reaction is...
The most valid response, so far, has been "Ruby doesn't need a mascot!" And to
those people, I would say, "Why would you care if it does?" It's been a long
time since I've thought about penguins, and I use Linux every day.
What seems very strange is that more people seem to be saying "Oh no, what if
someone was offended by it?" than "I, personally, am offended."
OK, I'll make it easier for you. I, personally, am offended by the
suggestion that a cute little (naked or otherwise) girl named Ruby be
the Ruby "mascot." It disturbs me that the idea has resurfaced so many
years after -- I thought -- having been put to amply-deserved rest.
Are we that bad that all it takes is the _possibility_ of puritanical outrage
to make us back down?
I don't have to "back down" from putting the image on my Ruby-related
sites because it would never occur to me to do it in the first place.
Please -- everyone, just put whatever images you want on your
websites, and have done with it. If Matz wants there to be a Ruby
mascot I'm sure he'll let us know. Meanwhile please channel some of
this energy into real issues, like why we as a community have not
blazed the new trail of inclusiveness across sexual boundaries that it
once seemed we might. And maybe we will yet. That, unlike debate as to
whether Ruby should be represented by a girl or a chunk of bacon, is
the kind of thing that might really lead somewhere.
David
···
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008, David Masover wrote:
On Friday 22 August 2008 17:14:13 Rick DeNatale wrote:
On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 1:44 PM, Gregory Brown > <gregory.t.brown@gmail.com>wrote:
On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Pablo Q. <paqs140482@gmail.com> wrote:
--
Rails training from David A. Black and Ruby Power and Light:
Intro to Ruby on Rails January 12-15 Fort Lauderdale, FL
Advancing with Rails January 19-22 Fort Lauderdale, FL
See http://www.rubypal.com for details and updates!
This thing is going to go on for ever, it's pointless discussing
issues of community building and taste with someone like you.
If it is pointless it is only because you have clearly demonstrated
that you haven't the slightest clue. This community is driven by an
exceptional programming language the design of which has more taste
than you can fathom. If you could, you would not have kicked off this
thread. I found your focus on a cartoon mascot to be offensive in that
it implicitly belittles the virtues and merits of the Ruby programming
language. The language does not need a cartoon mascot, it stands tall
on its own merit.
And this thread has gone on way too long, I will no more post on this thread.
You referred to the amount of discussion as something positive in an
earlier post. What happened pray tell?
This community is really great, don't want to pollute it with a
discussion that is going no where.
You already have I am afraid. I must hand it to you, you managed to
irk me (and several other members as far as I can see) and this tends
to be a comparatively cool and laid back crowd.
If we're gonna have a mascot, can it be one of those guys that dresses
up in a foam rubber suit and dances around during a game? Otherwise I'd
just as soon not have one.
It looks like mascots are in general out of fashion these says. Even
NetBSD which had a fine demon for a long time went to a bland flag :-S
Michal
···
On 20/08/2008, Gregory Brown <gregory.t.brown@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 9:51 AM, David A. Black <dblack@rubypal.com> wrote:
> Hi --
>
> On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, Mayuresh Kathe wrote:
>
>> The likeliness to the BSD Devil is intentional, Darwin uses a lot of BSD
>> code.
>> The Darwin kernel (Mach) is mostly pure, but the tools and utils layer
>> is all BSD.
>> Similarly, Hexley is basically the Platypus, but one *wearing* and
>> *bearing* the horned hat and trident.
>>
>> Perl has the camel.
>> C and Smalltalk were created in those days when people weren't so much
>> interested in mascots
>>
>> Should I talk with Jon Hooper, the creator of Hexley?
>> Or should I wait till we have enough momentum from the list members?
>
> You should talk to Matz. There's no official Ruby mascot unless Matz
> chooses one or delegates someone to do so. And, mercifully, he has so
> far done neither
I vaguely recall some creepy post on RubyTalk with someone asking for
a high resolution photo of Matz suitable for hanging on a wall.
If we have a mascot, I vote for a Matzcot*.
-greg
(*) Which of course, is completely a joke. I am very thankful we
don't have a mascot, Ruby isn't a high school football team.
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Clinton D. Judy <cdj@goh-inc.com> wrote:
Definitely get more momentum. Looks like 2 for mascot, 5+ against so
far.
Can I hear some defined reasons why people don't like a mascot? Don't
know why a lack of a mascot makes Ruby much better...
Maybe I am just too conservative about it. I believe Ruby does not
need a mascot. A mascot is something people associate with a product
etc.
--
I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step
aside and weep like a widow to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to
witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of
our divinity and still be a human. (Tool, Lateralus)
On 20/08/2008, Tim Hunter <rmagick@gmail.com> wrote:
Pablo Q. wrote:
> I think that we must use a kind of artificial animal, like dogs. I mean,
> an
> animal made by human beings because Ruby is for me like the first
> programming language that actually speaks like human and has an human
> behavior (able to says stuff in different ways).
Well said. We should just link to this message when this topic arises
yet again, next year.
--Wilson.
···
On 8/23/08, David A. Black <dblack@rubypal.com> wrote:
I don't have to "back down" from putting the image on my Ruby-related
sites because it would never occur to me to do it in the first place.
Please -- everyone, just put whatever images you want on your
websites, and have done with it. If Matz wants there to be a Ruby
mascot I'm sure he'll let us know. Meanwhile please channel some of
this energy into real issues, like why we as a community have not
blazed the new trail of inclusiveness across sexual boundaries that it
once seemed we might. And maybe we will yet. That, unlike debate as to
whether Ruby should be represented by a girl or a chunk of bacon, is
the kind of thing that might really lead somewhere.
OK, I'll make it easier for you. I, personally, am offended by the
suggestion that a cute little (naked or otherwise) girl named Ruby be
the Ruby "mascot."
You're one person... but I was generalizing.
However...
Meanwhile please channel some of
this energy into real issues, like why we as a community have not
blazed the new trail of inclusiveness across sexual boundaries that it
once seemed we might.
Ok, I'm curious -- how many females have seen this image? How many have
actually been offended by it? (I'm assuming "David" is male.)
I think we do more harm to that "inclusiveness" by focusing on this issue at
all. But I'm not really qualified to debate that. (Are you?)
But if you'd rather talk about inclusiveness... Is Ruby particularly
under-represented, among programming languages? We're talking about a very
small niche of an already male-dominated field.
I can see why you're tired of this issue. I'll stop.
···
On Saturday 23 August 2008 21:23:13 David A. Black wrote:
Wow, I haven't been in this thread for a while. Getting a little hot in
here.
I won't post about a mascot anymore, I can tell this is apparently a
pretty controversial idea. My closing thoughts: If a mascot is made and
the community rallies behind it, it will happen virally. Someone will
make a mascot on their own (or commission one on their own) anyway, and
if enough people like it, so be it.
Come to think of it, our local meetup might have fun with a locally
themed mascot.
- Clinton
···
-----Original Message-----
From: MRH [mailto:mauriceroman@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 10:36 AM
To: ruby-talk ML
Subject: Re: A Mascot...
This thing is going to go on for ever, it's pointless discussing
issues of community building and taste with someone like you.
If it is pointless it is only because you have clearly demonstrated
that you haven't the slightest clue. This community is driven by an
exceptional programming language the design of which has more taste
than you can fathom. If you could, you would not have kicked off this
thread. I found your focus on a cartoon mascot to be offensive in that
it implicitly belittles the virtues and merits of the Ruby programming
language. The language does not need a cartoon mascot, it stands tall
on its own merit.
And this thread has gone on way too long, I will no more post on this
thread.
You referred to the amount of discussion as something positive in an
earlier post. What happened pray tell?
This community is really great, don't want to pollute it with a
discussion that is going no where.
You already have I am afraid. I must hand it to you, you managed to
irk me (and several other members as far as I can see) and this tends
to be a comparatively cool and laid back crowd.
This thing is going to go on for ever, it's pointless discussing
issues of community building and taste with someone like you.
If it is pointless it is only because you have clearly demonstrated
that you haven't the slightest clue. This community is driven by an
exceptional programming language the design of which has more taste
than you can fathom.
This community is also driven by the principle "Matz is nice so we are
nice."
To be fair, it's now possible to get a reasonably full-sized keyboard from
Apple. It's one of the best keyboards I've ever used, as far as simply
typing -- and it does include a "delete ->" button, for what "del" does on
other keyboards (and in exactly the same place).
There are, however, MANY other things to hate about that keyboard. Simple
example: It doesn't have an insert key; it has "fn" there instead, which is
interpreted inside the keyboard (it never hits the OS). Thus, the only way to
remap it _might_ be to change the firmware inside the thing.
But I think individual projects can get away with more than a
programming language should be able to, especially once it becomes
more popular.
I can't imagine hanging on to our cuddly little crustacean if/when
Prawn is merged with the Ruby PDF project.
-greg
···
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Michal Suchanek <hramrach@centrum.cz> wrote:
On 20/08/2008, Gregory Brown <gregory.t.brown@gmail.com> wrote:
I vaguely recall some creepy post on RubyTalk with someone asking for
a high resolution photo of Matz suitable for hanging on a wall.
If we have a mascot, I vote for a Matzcot*.
-greg
(*) Which of course, is completely a joke. I am very thankful we
don't have a mascot, Ruby isn't a high school football team.
It looks like mascots are in general out of fashion these says. Even
NetBSD which had a fine demon for a long time went to a bland flag :-S
But if you'd rather talk about inclusiveness... Is Ruby particularly
under-represented, among programming languages? We're talking about a very
small niche of an already male-dominated field.
It's not that Ruby is particularly male-dominated; it's that it isn't
more equitable and integrated, as to sex, than other technical
communities. It seemed to me, and others I think, at one point that
the possibility existed of Ruby distinguishing itself through its
inclusiveness. The hope was that Ruby could break the cycle. We have
some extremely accomplished women in our midst, but I think they'd
agree that, so far at least, we haven't broken the mold of the more or
less typical technical community.
My attitude toward Ruby has always been that our community has the
power to do things right -- not to look to precedents, and not to use
less-than-exemplary exemplars as a justification for what we do, but
to do things right. In some respects I think we've done it. In the
matter of breaking out of the boys'-club paradigm to any really
impressive degree, we haven't.
David
···
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008, David Masover wrote:
--
Rails training from David A. Black and Ruby Power and Light:
Intro to Ruby on Rails January 12-15 Fort Lauderdale, FL
Advancing with Rails January 19-22 Fort Lauderdale, FL
See http://www.rubypal.com for details and updates!
how about everyone just waits for Matz to say something, everyone is just
saying, "Matz this, matz that, matz said blah blah", let's just wait for him
to say something or maybe some one ask him. It is true that most large scale
OS's or Programming languages have some symbol.
For the peopel that say that it is not necessary, the mascot is not
for anyone on this mailing list, because, obvsiouly, we are on this mailing
list because we are passionent about Ruby. The logo and masoct should be
used so people new to programming or Ruby have a association in there head
with Ruby plus something interesting or cool. The human mind remembers
images much better than it remembers words, or facts. So, instead of someone
saying, "What is that great dynamic languages with every feature I want" and
not remembering the name, they think to the logo and the logo connotates the
name. This is how many poeple who can remember a lot of things remember
them, with images that connotate the word to be remembered.
Reuben
···
On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 9:53 AM, Clinton D. Judy <cdj@goh-inc.com> wrote:
Wow, I haven't been in this thread for a while. Getting a little hot in
here.
I won't post about a mascot anymore, I can tell this is apparently a
pretty controversial idea. My closing thoughts: If a mascot is made and
the community rallies behind it, it will happen virally. Someone will
make a mascot on their own (or commission one on their own) anyway, and
if enough people like it, so be it.
Come to think of it, our local meetup might have fun with a locally
themed mascot.
- Clinton
-----Original Message-----
From: MRH [mailto:mauriceroman@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 10:36 AM
To: ruby-talk ML
Subject: Re: A Mascot...
> This thing is going to go on for ever, it's pointless discussing
> issues of community building and taste with someone like you.
If it is pointless it is only because you have clearly demonstrated
that you haven't the slightest clue. This community is driven by an
exceptional programming language the design of which has more taste
than you can fathom. If you could, you would not have kicked off this
thread. I found your focus on a cartoon mascot to be offensive in that
it implicitly belittles the virtues and merits of the Ruby programming
language. The language does not need a cartoon mascot, it stands tall
on its own merit.
> And this thread has gone on way too long, I will no more post on this
thread.
You referred to the amount of discussion as something positive in an
earlier post. What happened pray tell?
> This community is really great, don't want to pollute it with a
> discussion that is going no where.
You already have I am afraid. I must hand it to you, you managed to
irk me (and several other members as far as I can see) and this tends
to be a comparatively cool and laid back crowd.
We already have a symbol. A ruby. It works really well as a symbol, for
the reasons you state.
We're discussing the possibility of a mascot. I think the logo works
fine for the language, and I think the idea of a mascot was more of a
community thing. Maybe I'm mistaken. In any case, the mailing list has
at least said, by large, that they don't want a mascot.
I'm just going to use _why's foxes if I ever need to.
···
-----Original Message-----
From: reuben doetsch [mailto:hjast89@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 12:33 PM
To: ruby-talk ML
Subject: Re: A Mascot...
how about everyone just waits for Matz to say something, everyone is
just
saying, "Matz this, matz that, matz said blah blah", let's just wait for
him
to say something or maybe some one ask him. It is true that most large
scale
OS's or Programming languages have some symbol.
For the peopel that say that it is not necessary, the mascot is
not
for anyone on this mailing list, because, obvsiouly, we are on this
mailing
list because we are passionent about Ruby. The logo and masoct should be
used so people new to programming or Ruby have a association in there
head
with Ruby plus something interesting or cool. The human mind remembers
images much better than it remembers words, or facts. So, instead of
someone
saying, "What is that great dynamic languages with every feature I want"
and
not remembering the name, they think to the logo and the logo connotates
the
name. This is how many poeple who can remember a lot of things remember
them, with images that connotate the word to be remembered.
Reuben
On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 9:53 AM, Clinton D. Judy <cdj@goh-inc.com> wrote:
Wow, I haven't been in this thread for a while. Getting a little hot
in
here.
I won't post about a mascot anymore, I can tell this is apparently a
pretty controversial idea. My closing thoughts: If a mascot is made
and
the community rallies behind it, it will happen virally. Someone will
make a mascot on their own (or commission one on their own) anyway,
and
if enough people like it, so be it.
Come to think of it, our local meetup might have fun with a locally
themed mascot.
- Clinton
-----Original Message-----
From: MRH [mailto:mauriceroman@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 10:36 AM
To: ruby-talk ML
Subject: Re: A Mascot...
> This thing is going to go on for ever, it's pointless discussing
> issues of community building and taste with someone like you.
If it is pointless it is only because you have clearly demonstrated
that you haven't the slightest clue. This community is driven by an
exceptional programming language the design of which has more taste
than you can fathom. If you could, you would not have kicked off this
thread. I found your focus on a cartoon mascot to be offensive in that
it implicitly belittles the virtues and merits of the Ruby programming
language. The language does not need a cartoon mascot, it stands tall
on its own merit.
> And this thread has gone on way too long, I will no more post on
this
thread.
You referred to the amount of discussion as something positive in an
earlier post. What happened pray tell?
> This community is really great, don't want to pollute it with a
> discussion that is going no where.
You already have I am afraid. I must hand it to you, you managed to
irk me (and several other members as far as I can see) and this tends
to be a comparatively cool and laid back crowd.
