So then it's a poorly chosen default setting with ruby-talk itself.
People don't come on the other lists and ask 'Why do I only receive
one message when I post?" do they?
Nope.
But they do come on ruby-talk and ask "Why do I get duplicate messages
when I post?"
···
On 6/15/06, Austin Ziegler <halostatue@gmail.com> wrote:
If those other lists are not set up for "send me my own message" --
which ruby-talk *is* set up for by default -- you won't get duplicate
messages.
And ruby-talk's default setting is the right one. Gmail's setting
(which is not changeable) is the wrong one.
--
Greg Donald
http://destiney.com/
> It's a Gmail glitch.
I'd have to be a little weary about that statement. I see this exact
same behaviour using Mail on OSX 10.4 from my own mail server -- none
of my other lists or whatnot experience this same problem, only ruby-
talk. However, in my case, it's *all* messages to ruby-talk get sent
twice, not just my own.
In your case, it's probably because you're double subscribed or
something. Not at all the same problem. Regarding the OP's problem, I
can indeed verify that it is a gmail "feature". When I post to
ruby-talk using my gmail account, I also see the post duplicated. From
the beginning I suspected this was a gmail thing, and believed it when
others suggested that too. But for the sake of completeness, I
investigated.
This behaviour only started a little while ago (couple months). I've been subscribed to this list without altering my subscription for over 2 years.
···
On 15-Jun-06, at 5:47 PM, Jacob Fugal wrote:
On 6/15/06, Jeremy Tregunna <jtregunna@blurgle.ca> wrote:
On 15-Jun-06, at 2:32 PM, Austin Ziegler wrote:
Jacob Fugal
--
Jeremy Tregunna
jtregunna@blurgle.ca
"One serious obstacle to the adoption of good programming languages is the notion that everything has to be sacrificed for speed. In computer languages as in life, speed kills." -- Mike Vanier
Okay. I've done some further looking at this. This is *not* a
ruby-talk problem in any way. Ruby-talk does behave a little
differently than most other mailing lists, and part of it is what you
illustrated in your message above ([ruby-talk:197553]). ruby-talk adds
a few extra headers that most mailing lists do not. This gives Gmail
the impression that it is a wholly separate message and therefore it
doesn't suppress it (or better, suppress your *sent* copy) on receipt.
This is something that the Gmail team needs to fix; they know the
message-id that they used when sending the message; they should know
that a message that matches in every way except headers should *also*
be the same and therefore should suppress your sent message in favour
of the (marked up) message from the mailing list.
But I have *always* had both my sent copy and my received copy
regardless of the MUA that I've used. It's just that most MUAs don't
copy the sent message to the originating folder.
-austin
···
On 6/15/06, Yukihiro Matsumoto <matz@ruby-lang.org> wrote:
In message "Re: Why do my posts appear twice?" > on Fri, 16 Jun 2006 03:40:25 +0900, "Greg Donald" > <gdonald@gmail.com> writes:
>> It's a Gmail glitch.
>No, it's a ruby-talk glitch. Otherwise I would see the same issue
>with other lists.
This is interesting. The mechanism of duplicated messages is as
explained in [ruby-talk:197553]. I do want to know how other lists
avoid this problem. Regretting messages to the posters is just no
way. I have ever heard that setting up skip filters for author copied
messages to ruby-talk might work. But I am not sure if filters on
Gmail work for author copies.
--
Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com * http://www.halostatue.ca/
* austin@halostatue.ca * You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike. // halo • statue
* austin@zieglers.ca
Yukihiro Matsumoto <matz@ruby-lang.org> writes:
Hi,
>> It's a Gmail glitch.
>
>No, it's a ruby-talk glitch. Otherwise I would see the same issue
>with other lists.
This is interesting. The mechanism of duplicated messages is as
explained in [ruby-talk:197553]. I do want to know how other lists
avoid this problem. Regretting messages to the posters is just no
way. I have ever heard that setting up skip filters for author copied
messages to ruby-talk might work. But I am not sure if filters on
Gmail work for author copies.
Would it be possible to hack the mailing list software not to send
duplicates if the subscriber is from gmail.com? 
(Personally, I like that feature. It makes Gnus show my post in the
threads, too.)
···
In message "Re: Why do my posts appear twice?" > on Fri, 16 Jun 2006 03:40:25 +0900, "Greg Donald" > <gdonald@gmail.com> writes:
matz.
--
Christian Neukirchen <chneukirchen@gmail.com> http://chneukirchen.org
You are making an utter ass of yourself in public. I'd recommend you stop.
If you don't like the default behavior of the list, change it. But it's a perfectly reasonable way for a mailing list to behave, even if it confuses and annoys you specifically. I do not get multiples when I post to ANY mailing lists, because I do not use gmail.
-bmc
Greg Donald wrote:
···
On 6/15/06, Austin Ziegler <halostatue@gmail.com> wrote:
If those other lists are not set up for "send me my own message" --
which ruby-talk *is* set up for by default -- you won't get duplicate
messages.
And ruby-talk's default setting is the right one. Gmail's setting
(which is not changeable) is the wrong one.
So then it's a poorly chosen default setting with ruby-talk itself.
People don't come on the other lists and ask 'Why do I only receive
one message when I post?" do they?
Nope.
But they do come on ruby-talk and ask "Why do I get duplicate messages
when I post?"
> If those other lists are not set up for "send me my own message" --
> which ruby-talk *is* set up for by default -- you won't get duplicate
> messages.
>
> And ruby-talk's default setting is the right one. Gmail's setting
> (which is not changeable) is the wrong one.
So then it's a poorly chosen default setting with ruby-talk itself.
People don't come on the other lists and ask 'Why do I only receive
one message when I post?" do they?
No, but I have seen non-gmail users on such lists ask "Did my email
make it to the list?" because they never got a copy themselves from
the list, and no one else on the list had responded to their email.
But they do come on ruby-talk and ask "Why do I get duplicate messages
when I post?"
Only if they're from gmail (I'm not saying that like it's a bad thing
-- I use gmail as well; you just need to understand its behavior). The
ruby-talk mailing list predates gmail.
Jacob Fugal
···
On 6/15/06, Greg Donald <gdonald@gmail.com> wrote:
On 6/15/06, Austin Ziegler <halostatue@gmail.com> wrote:
*shrug* I can't speak to that. It may be that a glitch in the software
added a second subscription, someone else entered your address in a
form, whatever. I didn't mean to imply that you personally had
subscribed yourself twice. Or maybe it's some other glitch. I don't
know.
My main point there was that contrary to your assertion "I see this
exact same behaviour", your situtation was actually quite different
from that of the original poster.
Jacob Fugal
···
On 6/15/06, Jeremy Tregunna <jtregunna@blurgle.ca> wrote:
On 15-Jun-06, at 5:47 PM, Jacob Fugal wrote:
> On 6/15/06, Jeremy Tregunna <jtregunna@blurgle.ca> wrote:
>> I'd have to be a little weary about that statement. I see this exact
>> same behaviour using Mail on OSX 10.4 from my own mail server -- none
>> of my other lists or whatnot experience this same problem, only ruby-
>> talk. However, in my case, it's *all* messages to ruby-talk get sent
>> twice, not just my own.
>
> In your case, it's probably because you're double subscribed or
> something. Not at all the same problem.
This behaviour only started a little while ago (couple months). I've
been subscribed to this list without altering my subscription for
over 2 years.
> If those other lists are not set up for "send me my own message" --
> which ruby-talk *is* set up for by default -- you won't get duplicate
> messages.
> And ruby-talk's default setting is the right one. Gmail's setting
> (which is not changeable) is the wrong one.
So then it's a poorly chosen default setting with ruby-talk itself.
No, it isn't. ruby-talk has been configured like this for at least
four years, when I joined some time ago. What has changed is not
ruby-talk, but Gmail.
People don't come on the other lists and ask 'Why do I only receive
one message when I post?" do they?
Nope.
But they do come on ruby-talk and ask "Why do I get duplicate messages
when I post?"
Mostly because they don't bother to understand what's going on and
generally blame it on a mailing list that *is* configured correctly.
Look, I know what I'm talking about here. While I've never been wholly
responsible for writing an MUA, I have been extensively involved in
the maintenance of one. The *only* thing that ruby-talk does that
*strict* mailing list adherents argue against is Reply-To munging. And
*that* is because they're silly people who say ni.
-austin
···
On 6/15/06, Greg Donald <gdonald@gmail.com> wrote:
On 6/15/06, Austin Ziegler <halostatue@gmail.com> wrote:
--
Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com * http://www.halostatue.ca/
* austin@halostatue.ca * You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike. // halo • statue
* austin@zieglers.ca
Correct. I've been subscribed to ruby-talk through various addresses
and subscribed to ruby-talk just over two years ago when I first got
my gmail account. The only thing that I'd argue with is that this
happened six or eight months ago.
-austin
···
On 6/15/06, Jeremy Tregunna <jtregunna@blurgle.ca> wrote:
This behaviour only started a little while ago (couple months). I've
been subscribed to this list without altering my subscription for
over 2 years.
--
Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com * http://www.halostatue.ca/
* austin@halostatue.ca * You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike. // halo • statue
* austin@zieglers.ca
"Austin Ziegler" <halostatue@gmail.com> writes:
>> It's a Gmail glitch.
>No, it's a ruby-talk glitch. Otherwise I would see the same issue
>with other lists.
This is interesting. The mechanism of duplicated messages is as
explained in [ruby-talk:197553]. I do want to know how other lists
avoid this problem. Regretting messages to the posters is just no
way. I have ever heard that setting up skip filters for author copied
messages to ruby-talk might work. But I am not sure if filters on
Gmail work for author copies.
Okay. I've done some further looking at this. This is *not* a
ruby-talk problem in any way. Ruby-talk does behave a little
differently than most other mailing lists, and part of it is what you
illustrated in your message above ([ruby-talk:197553]). ruby-talk adds
a few extra headers that most mailing lists do not. This gives Gmail
the impression that it is a wholly separate message and therefore it
doesn't suppress it (or better, suppress your *sent* copy) on receipt.
This is something that the Gmail team needs to fix; they know the
message-id that they used when sending the message; they should know
that a message that matches in every way except headers should *also*
be the same and therefore should suppress your sent message in favour
of the (marked up) message from the mailing list.
So has anyone bothered to take the single potentially constructive
step of reporting it to the Gmail team?
Steve
···
On 6/15/06, Yukihiro Matsumoto <matz@ruby-lang.org> wrote:
In message "Re: Why do my posts appear twice?" >> on Fri, 16 Jun 2006 03:40:25 +0900, "Greg Donald" >> <gdonald@gmail.com> writes:
But I have *always* had both my sent copy and my received copy
regardless of the MUA that I've used. It's just that most MUAs don't
copy the sent message to the originating folder.
-austin
--
Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com * http://www.halostatue.ca/
* austin@halostatue.ca * You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike. // halo • statue
* austin@zieglers.ca
You are making an utter ass of yourself in public. I'd recommend you stop.
I will proceed to post as long as it suits me. I have not done
anything more than participate in a valid technical discussion about
ruby-talk list serve settings. I'm not even the original poster. I
am merely describing a behavior I see with a very popular email
service and mail client. If that bothers you then procmail yourself a
filter out of my world.
If you don't like the default behavior of the list, change it. But it's
a perfectly reasonable way for a mailing list to behave,
If it makes people complain more than a couple of times then it's a
bad default setting. It doesn't matter that people can change it,
multiple questions/complaints should have already made it evident a
change was needed. If the server admins disagree then they are only
going to hear more questions and complaints ongoing.
even if it
confuses and annoys you specifically.
Your words, not mine. I don't post enough to care either way.
I do not get multiples when I
post to ANY mailing lists, because I do not use gmail.
Well goody goody for you. More bandwidth and server space for me and mine.
···
On 6/15/06, Brendan Coffey <bmc@theorphanage.com> wrote:
--
Greg Donald
http://destiney.com/
*shrug* I can't speak to that. It may be that a glitch in the software
added a second subscription, someone else entered your address in a
form, whatever. I didn't mean to imply that you personally had
subscribed yourself twice. Or maybe it's some other glitch. I don't
know.
Perhaps, I'll have a look but I have my doubts.
My main point there was that contrary to your assertion "I see this
exact same behaviour", your situtation was actually quite different
from that of the original poster.
Behaviour is not indicative of cause. You can get the same behaviour from different sources (as witnessed by the invention of the elevator for one example).
···
On 15-Jun-06, at 7:34 PM, Jacob Fugal wrote:
Jacob Fugal
--
Jeremy Tregunna
jtregunna@blurgle.ca
"One serious obstacle to the adoption of good programming languages is the notion that everything has to be sacrificed for speed. In computer languages as in life, speed kills." -- Mike Vanier
Sorry. I misunderstood.
Jeremy, have you changed your MUA by chance? If so, does your MUA copy
sent messages -- especially replies -- to the originating folders? It
could be that your MUA is now applying the same filters used in
*receiving* messages to messages you send, too, which is essentially
the same problem as what is being seen in Gmail.
-austin
···
On 6/15/06, Austin Ziegler <halostatue@gmail.com> wrote:
On 6/15/06, Jeremy Tregunna <jtregunna@blurgle.ca> wrote:
> This behaviour only started a little while ago (couple months). I've
> been subscribed to this list without altering my subscription for
> over 2 years.
Correct. I've been subscribed to ruby-talk through various addresses
and subscribed to ruby-talk just over two years ago when I first got
my gmail account. The only thing that I'd argue with is that this
happened six or eight months ago.
--
Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com * http://www.halostatue.ca/
* austin@halostatue.ca * You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike. // halo • statue
* austin@zieglers.ca
And I don't want you to. As I said, it's *not* a ruby-talk glitch.
It's a Gmail glitch.
If I *don't* get the separate message, it'll be that much harder to
find out what the message's [ruby-talk:#] is, and I'm not interested
in that.
-austin
···
On 6/16/06, Yukihiro Matsumoto <matz@ruby-lang.org> wrote:
In message "Re: Why do my posts appear twice?" > on Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:17:43 +0900, Christian Neukirchen <chneukirchen@gmail.com> writes:
>Would it be possible to hack the mailing list software not to send
>duplicates if the subscriber is from gmail.com?
Possible. But I don't want to, just because our list server is
written in P* language.
--
Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com * http://www.halostatue.ca/
* austin@halostatue.ca * You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike. // halo • statue
* austin@zieglers.ca
I haven't, because it stopped bothering me a long time ago.
-austin
···
On 6/18/06, Steven Lumos <steven@lumos.us> wrote:
So has anyone bothered to take the single potentially constructive
step of reporting it to the Gmail team?
--
Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com * http://www.halostatue.ca/
* austin@halostatue.ca * You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike. // halo • statue
* austin@zieglers.ca
If you don't like the default behavior of the list, change it. But it's
a perfectly reasonable way for a mailing list to behave,
If it makes people complain more than a couple of times then it's a
bad default setting.
It's only bad if it's worse than the alternative, which (as mentioned) is a number of people posting "did my mail get through?" Not a complaint, perhaps, but definitely symptomatic of a problem. Unless you have some hard data on how one problem is worse than the other, there's no reason to change the default.
It doesn't matter that people can change it,
multiple questions/complaints should have already made it evident a
change was needed. If the server admins disagree then they are only
going to hear more questions and complaints ongoing.
If there's one thing you learn being an admin or moderator of anything it's that questions and complaints are always ongoing, no matter what you do.
Uunless someone comes along with some hard data on the rate of "I get duplicates" compared to "did my message get through?" on similar-volume lists with different settings, then there's little real reason to change anything.
matthew smillie.
···
On Jun 16, 2006, at 0:18, Greg Donald wrote:
Greg Donald wrote:
I will proceed to post as long as it suits me. I have not done
anything more than participate in a valid technical discussion about
ruby-talk list serve settings. I'm not even the original poster.
No, you're just the one making an ass of himself in public.
I
am merely describing a behavior I see with a very popular email
service and mail client. If that bothers you then procmail yourself a
filter out of my world.
Done. *plonk*
If it makes people complain more than a couple of times then it's a
bad default setting.
False.
It doesn't matter that people can change it,
multiple questions/complaints should have already made it evident a
change was needed.
Changing the setting will produce complaints, as well.
If the server admins disagree then they are only
going to hear more questions and complaints ongoing.
The server admins will hear complaints ongoing, regardless. It's one of the hazards of being a mailing list administrator.
-bmc
"The customer is always right"?
As I mentioned, I have seen plenty of people complain about the
reverse setting as well. I've been on lists where reply-to munging has
been flipped off then on then off then on again because there were
vocal minorities on both sides of that holy war, while most in the
middle didn't care either way. You're never going to please everyone.
Unless it's broke, don't fix it. And you're not going to convince me
it's broke while:
1) Only a couple of people from one MUA are complaining, and
2) They have a perfectly valid means to "fix it" themselves available
Jacob Fugal
···
On 6/15/06, Greg Donald <gdonald@gmail.com> wrote:
On 6/15/06, Brendan Coffey <bmc@theorphanage.com> wrote:
> If you don't like the default behavior of the list, change it. But it's
> a perfectly reasonable way for a mailing list to behave,
If it makes people complain more than a couple of times then it's a
bad default setting. It doesn't matter that people can change it,
multiple questions/complaints should have already made it evident a
change was needed. If the server admins disagree then they are only
going to hear more questions and complaints ongoing.
> This behaviour only started a little while ago (couple months). I've
> been subscribed to this list without altering my subscription for
> over 2 years.
Correct. I've been subscribed to ruby-talk through various addresses
and subscribed to ruby-talk just over two years ago when I first got
my gmail account. The only thing that I'd argue with is that this
happened six or eight months ago.
Sorry. I misunderstood.
Jeremy, have you changed your MUA by chance? If so, does your MUA copy
sent messages -- especially replies -- to the originating folders? It
could be that your MUA is now applying the same filters used in
*receiving* messages to messages you send, too, which is essentially
the same problem as what is being seen in Gmail.
No, I've been happily using OSX's Mail application for my mail for the last 3 1/2 years. I use IMAP not POP3 for handling my messages so I can (if I need too) check my mail from other locations, retrieve old messages that I've saved, etc. I have rules set up so that whenever a ruby-talk message comes in, it goes to the appropriate folder and stays there until I delete it. None of my setup has changed in the last .. 7 or so months (since I upgraded to 10.4) and that "change" was just in the version of Mail (newer version, config still the same).
I should note that the same rules I use for ruby-talk are also applied to the various freebsd lists I'm on, the GNUstep lists I'm on, and the Io language mailing list -- ruby-talk is the only one that gives me duplicates (for *everybody's* messages, not just my own).
···
On 15-Jun-06, at 11:35 PM, Austin Ziegler wrote:
On 6/15/06, Austin Ziegler <halostatue@gmail.com> wrote:
On 6/15/06, Jeremy Tregunna <jtregunna@blurgle.ca> wrote:
-austin
--
Jeremy Tregunna
jtregunna@blurgle.ca
"One serious obstacle to the adoption of good programming languages is the notion that everything has to be sacrificed for speed. In computer languages as in life, speed kills." -- Mike Vanier