# \[Very OT\] Australia or Canada, which one is the best country for a geek?!? **URL:** \ **Category:** ruby-talk\ **Created:** [27 July 2007 00:21 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454 "2007-07-27T00:21:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Houman\_Dunnil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/da6949/32.png) [@Houman\_Dunnil](https://rubytalk.org/u/Houman_Dunnil)\ **Post date:** [27 July 2007 00:21 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/1 "2007-07-27T00:21:14Z")
Hello folks, Sorry for this \*too off topic\* email, but I think you can help me as I believe you folks in the Ruby community are the smartest geeks I've ever seen. I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us). What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and things like these... Thank you all in advance and sorry again for OT message, - Houman Dunnil ---
**Author:** ![James\_Britt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/22d042/32.png) [@James\_Britt](https://rubytalk.org/u/James_Britt)\ **Post date:** [27 July 2007 01:27 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/2 "2007-07-27T01:27:13Z")
Depends on the city. > **···** > > On Jul 26, 2007, at 7:21 PM, Houman Dunnil wrote: > > > Hello folks, > > > > Sorry for this \*too off topic\* email, but I think you can help me as I > > believe you folks in the Ruby community are the smartest geeks I've > > ever seen. > > > > I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which > > one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us). > > > > What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better > > programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and > > things like these... > > > > Thank you all in advance and sorry again for OT message, > > - Houman Dunnil ---
**Author:** ![James\_Britt3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b782af/32.png) [@James\_Britt3](https://rubytalk.org/u/James_Britt3)\ **Post date:** [27 July 2007 03:06 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/3 "2007-07-27T03:06:36Z")
Houman Dunnil wrote: > What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better > programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and > things like these... Which ever one has Silicon Valley. 🙂 > **···** > > -- > James Britt > > "A principle or axiom is of no value without the rules for applying it." >    - Len Bullard ---
**Author:** ![M\_Edward\_Ed\_Borasky1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9c0ed/32.png) [@M\_Edward\_Ed\_Borasky1](https://rubytalk.org/u/M_Edward_Ed_Borasky1)\ **Post date:** [27 July 2007 03:51 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/4 "2007-07-27T03:51:06Z")
Houman Dunnil wrote: > Hello folks, > > Sorry for this \*too off topic\* email, but I think you can help me as I > believe you folks in the Ruby community are the smartest geeks I've > ever seen. > > I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which > one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us). > > What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better > programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and > things like these... > > Thank you all in advance and sorry again for OT message, > - Houman Dunnil Well ... 1. If you don't mind my asking, where do you live now and what's wrong with it specific to being a hacker? 2. I suppose things have changed since then, but back in the mid 1980s I worked for a company that had a couple of offices in Canada. Their two sales/support analysts both quit in a six month period, and I filled in for a couple of years, commuting up from Maryland when necessary. At one point the subject of me transferring up there permanently was raised. It turns out that Canada is very protective of their native talent. I could fill in on a temporary basis, of course, but they had to advertise the position for a full year and interview every Canadian citizen that met the qualifications of the position. Only if they couldn't fill the position with a Canadian citizen within a year would I have been able to become a permanent resident. I know there are Canadians on the list who migrated there from the USA -- is it still that way, or have things changed? 3. I've never been to Australia so I don't know what the situation is there. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter](https://rubytalk.org/u/John_Carter)\ **Post date:** [27 July 2007 05:50 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/5 "2007-07-27T05:50:33Z")
New Zealand. Well, not entirely, salaries are less here, everything is smaller,... But is a beautiful good wee country with outsized (relative to its very small population speaking) high tech sector. John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639 Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632 PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@tait.co.nz New Zealand > **···** > > On Fri, 27 Jul 2007, Houman Dunnil wrote: > > > I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which > > one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us). ---
**Author:** ![Jesper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/49beb7/32.png) [@Jesper](https://rubytalk.org/u/Jesper)\ **Post date:** [27 July 2007 06:02 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/6 "2007-07-27T06:02:41Z")
Hello, > I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which > one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us). I don't know about Canada, but Australia is the best place in the world, period. As for hacker factor... Well, Perth in WA is one of the few cities in the world that has a person developing hardware for the C64, which IMHO is a sign or hacker-friendly climate! Ok, that's a bit far-fetched, but still: Australia is amazing. (for the record, I'm not Australian) / J ---
**Author:** ![Kenneth\_McDonald](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kenneth\_McDonald](https://rubytalk.org/u/Kenneth_McDonald)\ **Post date:** [28 July 2007 03:22 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/7 "2007-07-28T03:22:05Z")
It'll depend completely on the city and surrounding area. Canada is much closer to the high-tech stuff in the US. But of course, if you can speak the appropriate language(s), Australia is much closer to the high-tech stuff in Asia. As has been mentioned, there's a big (in Canadian terms) concentration of high-tech around Ottawa. However, the real center of Canadian cultural and commercial activity is Toronto (no, I'm not a Torontonian, it's just the truth). If the high Quebec taxes are not a deterrent, I'd suggest that Montreal is probably the optimal combination of high-tech opportunity, cultural amenities, and general quality of life. Other things being equal, it's probably where I'd go were I to move back to Canada, Toronto would be a close second. Vancouver is supposed to be a very lovely city; it isn't. I've lived there, and architecturally Vancouver is somewhere between bland nouveau West Coast and drop-dead graveled-yard ugly. The \_surroundings\_ are beautiful, but even then, be prepared for very damp, gray, depressing winters--if sunshine is important to you, don't move to Vancouver. Canada's general social attitudes are much more European than American (and the general Canadian attitude towards many current US policies is probably best described as somewhere between amusement and disgust), so if you're a strong libertarian-type hacker, you may not like that aspect of Canada. (Personally, I like it quite a bit.) Australia will be warmer. \_Much\_ warmer. And sunnier. Hope this helps, Ken Houman Dunnil wrote: > **···** > > > Hello folks, > > > > Sorry for this \*too off topic\* email, but I think you can help me as I > > believe you folks in the Ruby community are the smartest geeks I've > > ever seen. > > > > I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which > > one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us). > > > > What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better > > programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and > > things like these... > > > > Thank you all in advance and sorry again for OT message, > > - Houman Dunnil ---
**Author:** ![Pete\_Yandell1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Pete\_Yandell1](https://rubytalk.org/u/Pete_Yandell1)\ **Post date:** [28 July 2007 03:34 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/8 "2007-07-28T03:34:27Z")
Houman Dunnil wrote: > I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which > one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us). Not sure of the answer, but I live in Melbourne and can give you a data point: The developer community here is excellent. We have monthly Ruby developer meetings with about 30 people showing up on average, and last month we had a Ruby Nuby Night which pulled 60-70 people without much promotion. All the Ruby/Rails contractors here are finding plenty of work. Melbourne is also (in my biased opinion) a lovely place to live. Low cost of living, great culture, brilliant food, mild climate. So you can mark me down as one happy Ruby developer from Australia. 🙂 Pete Yandell > **[Pete Yandell — Principal Engineer / Architect](https://notahat.com/)** > > Pete Yandell is an experienced Principal Software Engineer and Architect based in Melbourne, Australia. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_Bray1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Tim\_Bray1](https://rubytalk.org/u/Tim_Bray1)\ **Post date:** [29 July 2007 06:22 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/9 "2007-07-29T06:22:25Z")
I'm Canadian, lived in several places there, have friends & relatives in Oz, spent lots of time there. Currently I live in Vancouver but have been considering relocating to Melbourne for quite a while now. Vancouver & Melbourne regularly both place in top-5 best places to live in the world lists, so it's not a slam dunk. As regards Canada, it depends what kind of high-tech. If it's telecom, Ottawa. If it's finance, Toronto. If it's Web2.0 stuff, Vancouver. If being in California's timezone is important, Vancouver. If it's fun & good food you're after, Montreal or Vancouver. I wish Vancouver had more winter sun but I just can't take 5 months of snow on the ground, so I don't really have a choice. These days, get a high-tech job offer and you can get into the country, no prob. Any big Australian city is going to be a lot warmer, but then there are the spikes to 40ºC and the high winds and the awful, horrible, bugs. On the other hand, the people are awfully nice and the wine is better. My impression is that the Aussie IT scene really does suffer from being an 8+-hour flight to anywhere, and a 15+-hour flight to any other tech center. But these days, you can find a Ruby tribe wherever you are.   -T > **···** > > On Jul 26, 2007, at 5:21 PM, Houman Dunnil wrote: > > > I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which > > one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us). > > > > What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better > > programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and > > things like these... ---
**Author:** ![Nathaniel\_Brown2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ea5d25/32.png) [@Nathaniel\_Brown2](https://rubytalk.org/u/Nathaniel_Brown2)\ **Post date:** [30 July 2007 03:05 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/10 "2007-07-30T03:05:57Z")
Speaking from Canada, I would recommend Vancouver or Toronto. Each has it's perks besides the technology. Vancouver has many other conferences and events going on around town that would appeal to the traveller in you. Minus the smog, humidity in the summer, and freezing cold in the winter, there isn't much of a better place to live in Canada than Vancouver. I lived in Ottawa for a year, which is pretty close to the same climate as Toronto, and the polarity in weather was enough to want to make me come back home to Vancouver. That being said, Vancouver would be on the top of the list. As for Australia, can't say I have been there before. Nice place, but as far as my Ruby radar goes, isn't a strong signal. But, as I glanced over the thread, I did notice a very important point. With todays technology, you don't need to be local to benefit from the world community of Ruby. We are increasingly closer by the day as technology gets more real and more life like with an amplitude of simplicity that changes the landscape dramatically when making a decision like this. Nathaniel. > **···** > > On 7/26/07, Houman Dunnil \ wrote: > > > Hello folks, > > > > Sorry for this \*too off topic\* email, but I think you can help me as I > > believe you folks in the Ruby community are the smartest geeks I've > > ever seen. > > > > I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which > > one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us). > > > > What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better > > programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and > > things like these... > > > > Thank you all in advance and sorry again for OT message, > > - Houman Dunnil > > -- > Nathaniel Steven Henry Brown > > Toll Free: 1-877-446-4647 > Vancouver: 604-724-6624 ---
**Author:** ![Armin\_Armbruster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@Armin\_Armbruster](https://rubytalk.org/u/Armin_Armbruster)\ **Post date:** [31 July 2007 15:33 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/11 "2007-07-31T15:33:50Z")
Hi, can't speak for Australia, never been there. As far as Canada goes: I moved to Waterloo, Ontario six years ago and enjoy it here. Lot's of High-Tech industry around (RIM for example), really excellent University (UW was the only Canadian University visited by Bill Gates on a campaign to recrute developers for Microsoft in 2006). Lot's of startup companies as well. Lot's of insurance companies (if you like financial software). In terms of quality of living. Housing (although not cheap and prices are rising) is much more affordable than Toronto or Vancouver. At the same time Kitchener-Waterloo is big enough (\>300k) to provide lot's of good restaurants, theaters, sport facilities. And if you really need the big city experience from time to time, Toronto is only a one hour car ride away. Also there are 3 international airports within a one hour drive (Kitchener, Toronto, Hamilton). The downsides: - poor public transportation system --\> hard to get around without a car, unless you are a hard-core cyclist, especially in the winter. - winters are cold and long (on the other hand a nice crisp sunny winter day can be very enjoyable). - summers can be hot and humid, although this year has been pretty good so far. Just my $0.02. Armin Houman Dunnil wrote: > **···** > > > Hello folks, > > > > Sorry for this \*too off topic\* email, but I think you can help me as I > > believe you folks in the Ruby community are the smartest geeks I've > > ever seen. > > > > I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which > > one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us). > > > > What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better > > programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and > > things like these... > > > > Thank you all in advance and sorry again for OT message, > > - Houman Dunnil > > -- > Posted via [http://www.ruby-forum.com/\](http://www.ruby-forum.com/%5C). ---
**Author:** ![Daniel\_N1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@Daniel\_N1](https://rubytalk.org/u/Daniel_N1)\ **Post date:** [27 July 2007 06:08 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/12 "2007-07-27T06:08:22Z")
Here Here (I am 🙂 ) > **···** > > On 7/27/07, Jesper \ wrote: > > > Australia is amazing. > > > > (for the record, I'm not Australian) > > > > / J ---
**Author:** ![John\_H\_Lindsay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@John\_H\_Lindsay](https://rubytalk.org/u/John_H_Lindsay)\ **Post date:** [27 July 2007 20:25 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/13 "2007-07-27T20:25:02Z")
James Britt wrote: > Houman Dunnil wrote: > > > What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better > > programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and > > things like these... > > Which ever one has Silicon Valley. ..... Aha! Canada. Ottawa (including the part called Kanata) is sometimes called 'Silicon Valley North'. (Note: bias declared; I'm a Canadian). John. ---
**Author:** ![Ilan\_Berci](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/94ad74/32.png) [@Ilan\_Berci](https://rubytalk.org/u/Ilan_Berci)\ **Post date:** [27 July 2007 21:50 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/14 "2007-07-27T21:50:10Z")
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote: > It turns out that Canada is very protective of their native talent. I > could fill in on a temporary basis, of course, but they had to advertise > the position for a full year and interview every Canadian citizen that > met the qualifications of the position. Only if they couldn't fill the > position with a Canadian citizen within a year would I have been able to > become a permanent resident. It's quite ironic as many Canadian developers hold the same view when working at positions within the US. I was a Canadian developer working in the states from 1994-2002 under various visas and I often had to justify my position to immigration officials from the stance as to why an American couldn't fulfill the requirement. Secondly, when applying for an H-1 from a TN, a posting of the job requirement (for my job at that given time) had to be posted within at least 3 public venues in order to allow an American to compete for said position. I don't want to give the impression that I am sore about this, I believe every country has the right to protect it's work force. ilan > **···** > > -- > Posted via [http://www.ruby-forum.com/\](http://www.ruby-forum.com/%5C). ---
**Author:** ![David\_and\_Sharon\_Phi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@David\_and\_Sharon\_Phi](https://rubytalk.org/u/David_and_Sharon_Phi)\ **Post date:** [28 July 2007 01:40 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/15 "2007-07-28T01:40:03Z")
> I don't know about Canada, but Australia is the best place in the world, period. > > As for hacker factor... Well, Perth in WA is one of the few cities in the world that has a person developing hardware for the C64, which IMHO is a sign or hacker-friendly climate! Ok, that's a bit far-fetched, but still: Australia is amazing. > > (for the record, I'm not Australian) I am though, and from Perth too but working in the capital for a few years. I'd thus like to say, without any bias whatsoever, that Perth is pretty good. It's also a bit warmer than Canada 🙂 Jesper, Any Ruby based work in Perth I can look forward to when I return? Cheers, Dave ---
**Author:** ![Efriednospam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f14d63/32.png) [@Efriednospam](https://rubytalk.org/u/Efriednospam)\ **Post date:** [28 July 2007 05:15 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/16 "2007-07-28T05:15:05Z")
How would someone be authorized to work in NZ if not a citizen? Eric > **···** > > In article \, John Carter \ wrote: > > > On Fri, 27 Jul 2007, Houman Dunnil wrote: > > > > > I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which > > > one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us). > > > > New Zealand. > > > > Well, not entirely, salaries are less here, everything is smaller,... > > > > But is a beautiful good wee country with outsized (relative to its > > very small population speaking) high tech sector. > > > > John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639 > > Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632 > > PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : john.carter@tait.co.nz > > New Zealand ---
**Author:** ![Daniel\_Berger2](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/rubytalk.org/daniel_berger2/32/2243_2.png) [@Daniel\_Berger2](https://rubytalk.org/u/Daniel_Berger2)\ **Post date:** [28 July 2007 19:52 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/17 "2007-07-28T19:52:32Z")
Plus, you know, the beaches. \*nudge\* \*nudge\* Dan > **···** > > On Jul 27, 9:22 pm, Kenneth McDonald \ wrote: > > > It'll depend completely on the city and surrounding area. Canada is much > > closer to the high-tech stuff in the US. But of course, if you can speak > > the appropriate language(s), Australia is much closer to the high-tech > > stuff in Asia. > > > > As has been mentioned, there's a big (in Canadian terms) concentration > > of high-tech around Ottawa. However, the real center of Canadian > > cultural and commercial activity is Toronto (no, I'm not a Torontonian, > > it's just the truth). If the high Quebec taxes are not a deterrent, I'd > > suggest that Montreal is probably the optimal combination of high-tech > > opportunity, cultural amenities, and general quality of life. Other > > things being equal, it's probably where I'd go were I to move back to > > Canada, Toronto would be a close second. > > > > Vancouver is supposed to be a very lovely city; it isn't. I've lived > > there, and architecturally Vancouver is somewhere between bland nouveau > > West Coast and drop-dead graveled-yard ugly. The \_surroundings\_ are > > beautiful, but even then, be prepared for very damp, gray, depressing > > winters--if sunshine is important to you, don't move to Vancouver. > > > > Canada's general social attitudes are much more European than American > > (and the general Canadian attitude towards many current US policies is > > probably best described as somewhere between amusement and disgust), so > > if you're a strong libertarian-type hacker, you may not like that aspect > > of Canada. (Personally, I like it quite a bit.) > > > > Australia will be warmer. \_Much\_ warmer. And sunnier. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Muermann1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Max\_Muermann1](https://rubytalk.org/u/Max_Muermann1)\ **Post date:** [29 July 2007 10:36 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/18 "2007-07-29T10:36:27Z")
\ > But these days, you can find a Ruby tribe > wherever you are. Australia has a great community. True, things tend to be mostly driven by Rails - but there's plenty of Ruby mixed in. We recently ran RailsCamp07 in the bush north of Sydney, which was hands down the best geek experience I've had. [http://toolmantim.com/article/2007/7/17/rails\_camp\_07\_rundown](http://toolmantim.com/article/2007/7/17/rails_camp_07_rundown) > **[Rails Camp](https://www.flickr.com/groups/rails-camp/pool/?rb=1)** > > Inspired by Webjam, Bar Camp and the great community of Rails developers that’s building around Australia, we want to get the best and brightest (you!) together for a weekend of Rails hacking, knowledge sharing, Camping, and fun making. The community is truly outstanding. Now for the hair in the soup... The IT industry in Australia is much, much smaller than most other countries (Australia has a little over 20 million people). It also seems that Australian companies have over the last few years developed a regrettable aversion to any sort of risk, which now translates into a reluctance in businesses to evaluate Ruby and Rails for their projects. There is quite a bit of work around for Rails developers, but Australian rates seem low compared to pretty much anywhere else. I've been living in Australia for almost eight years now and it is an amazing country, lots of very friendly people and beautiful landscapes and beaches. --max > **[SYnaphy.com is for sale | HugeDomains](https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=synaphy.com)** > > Easy, affordable options for you to obtain the domain you want. Safe and secure shopping. [http://whatsnextapp.com](http://whatsnextapp.com) ---
**Author:** ![David\_and\_Sharon\_Phi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@David\_and\_Sharon\_Phi](https://rubytalk.org/u/David_and_Sharon_Phi)\ **Post date:** [29 July 2007 11:09 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/19 "2007-07-29T11:09:24Z")
> Any big Australian city is going to be a lot warmer, but then there are the spikes to 40ºC and the high winds and the awful, horrible, bugs. Awful horrible bugs? Not sure about that, but we do have lots of imaginative ways to get killed. No bears to eat you here (Like Canada?), but here's my very quick non-researched list of ways you (as a tourist) are likely to die in Australia. Drowning at Bondi et al. There's some staggering number of people drown each year on Australian beaches. Most of them tourists. Eaten by a croc. In the north, when they say don't enter the water, they mean it. Eaten by a Shark. Not too common actually. Stung by a jellyfish. We have ones that'll kill you in minutes. You stood on a stone fish. These lie in the sand in the shallows and have a deadly spike in their head. Bitten by a snake. Of the ten most deadly snakes in the world, most live in Australia. Bitten by a spider. You're less likely to die, but more likely to get bitten. Quite common (relative to other means in this list) in metro areas. Stung by an octopus. We have a cute little one with glowing blue rings. Deadly. Stranded in the desert. People don't seem to appreciate the size of the country (but those from the US probably do. We're a lot smaller than you) and it's surprising the number of people who hire a 4WD and try to cross one of our deserts. Lost in the Blue Mountains. Beautiful, but take care. Falling asleep whilst driving. Surprisingly, this is a big killer. Ways you're not likely to die: In a terrorist attack. Look out bad guys, We have the magnets and we're alert, but not alarmed. (Our Gov't too has been spinning the terror thing for all it's worth. You (in the US) got your constitution neutered. We got fridge magnets.) Cheers, Dave ---
**Author:** ![James\_Britt3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b782af/32.png) [@James\_Britt3](https://rubytalk.org/u/James_Britt3)\ **Post date:** [30 July 2007 03:37 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454/20 "2007-07-30T03:37:46Z")
Nathaniel Brown wrote: > But, as I glanced over the thread, I did notice a very important > point. With todays technology, you don't need to be local to benefit > from the world community of Ruby. We are increasingly closer by the > day as technology gets more real and more life like with an amplitude > of simplicity that changes the landscape dramatically when making a > decision like this. There's something to be said for hanging out in coffee shop with a group of like-minded geeks hacking on projects. There's even more to be said for hanging out with dislike-minded geeks who can keep you form getting insulated in some pristine Ruby cocoon (you avoid the geek version of the Elvis Effect, where no one around you will tell you how sucky your favorite language or framework is). My experiences with the post-meeting dinners for Refresh Phoenix and the Phoenix Ruby group showed me that in-person chatting bandwidth can't be beat. > **···** > > -- > James Britt > > [www.ruby-doc.org](http://www.ruby-doc.org) - Ruby Help & Documentation > [www.rubystuff.com](http://www.rubystuff.com) - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff > [www.risingtidesoftware.com](http://www.risingtidesoftware.com) - Wicked Cool Coding [Next page](https://rubytalk.org/t/very-ot-australia-or-canada-which-one-is-the-best-country-for-a-geek/39454.md?page=2)