# Using Ruby in a Corporate Environment **URL:** \ **Category:** ruby-talk\ **Created:** [26 April 2007 22:00 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/using-ruby-in-a-corporate-environment/37210 "2007-04-26T22:00:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Steve\_Molitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@Steve\_Molitor](https://rubytalk.org/u/Steve_Molitor)\ **Post date:** [26 April 2007 22:00 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/using-ruby-in-a-corporate-environment/37210/1 "2007-04-26T22:00:07Z")
Curt, Thanks for some really helpful pointers. Love the Spolsky essay. I'm sending it to my boss and our project managers. The two hurdles to using Ruby more at my company are convincing my boss, and convincing the developers. My boss is worried about the usual stuff: staffing, training, scalability, etc. You've helped me with the staffing and training issues, and we can do some benchmarking to test scalability. (Rails should scale just fine for our needs.) Surprisingly, while most of the developers are either excited or at least open to the idea, there are one or two developers who are definitely opposed to Ruby. (OK, one to be precise: but there could be others who haven't spoken out.) The objections are that Ruby is not used or accepted enough in the corporate world, and that learning Ruby won't help them make more money or more marketable (in the St. Louis corporate world). If corporations start explicitly looking for Ruby developers they'll learn it, but not until then. I'm not quite sure how to answer this one. While I do think that something is going to succeed Java, I can't predict the future. I can't truthfully say with assurance that Ruby will be the next big thing in the corporate world. It \*might\* be, but it might not. Personally I'm not concerned about what the next big thing might be; I want a language that makes me and my fellow developers happy and more productive. That's good for us and good for the business, I figure. I have trouble understanding the narrow, strictly mercenary and corporate focused point of view. Any ideas on convincing these folks? Thanks again. Steve Molitor > My company is thinking of moving to Ruby, and Ruby on Rails, in a fairly big way -- maybe to the point of making it the preferred language and framework for new applications. We've been dabbling with Ruby and Rails in one decent sized app and a few tiny apps. My boss is concerned about the issues in transitioning a mostly Java shop to Ruby -- training, integrating with the existing Java apps, etc. He would feel a lot better if he could talk to folks from another St. Louis company who have made that transition. Does anyone work in a corporate environment that uses Ruby extensively, or know someone who does? And if so, can we talk to you? > > Thanks! > > Steve Molitor First, let me just briefly mention that we are moving mailing list to Google Groups (which I cc'd on this response). So, if you could join our Google group and direct future messages there, it would be a big help. I can't answer your primary question directly (other STL-RUG members may have more direct information for you). But I can give you some information. Training is available both locally and nationally. The Pragmatic Programmer's Rails Studio (Dave Thomas and Mike Clark) is probably the premier nationally given Rails training. Locally, Object Computing Inc teaches both Ruby and Rails classes through Washington University's CAIT program (our monthly meetings are held at OCI's offices). And two of our members, Jeff Barczewski and Mike Sullivan, have formed a training company (Inspired Horizons) that specializes in Rails training. If you need to integrate Ruby with existing Java apps, then you probably want to look closely at JRuby ([http://www.headius.com/](http://www.headius.com/) jrubywiki/index.php/Main\_Page ). Finally, don't be intimidated by a lack of seasoned Ruby/Rails programmers, just concentrate on hiring good programmers (they know how to pick up new languages and technologies quickly). Joel Spolsky put it very well in his essay "Sorting Resumes" (the whole thing is worth reading): > **[Sorting Resumes](https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/09/08/sorting-resumes-2/)** > > The standard job application of cover letter plus resume is a phenomenally weak way to introduce a candidate. They give you only the faintest clues as to the quality of an applicant. Sometimes, tho… If I needed to hire someone to do Ruby development, someone with extensive Smalltalk and Python experience who had never even heard of Ruby would be a lot more likely to be successful than someone who read a book about Ruby once. For someone who is basically a good software developer, learning another programming language is just not going to be a big deal. In two weeks they'll be pretty productive. I hope that helps... good luck and keep us posted on your progress! Curt > **···** > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Curt Hibbs \ > Date: Apr 26, 2007 12:41 PM > Subject: Re: [stlruby] St. Louis Companies Using Ruby > To: stlruby@yahoogroups.com > Cc: "St. Louis Ruby Users Group" \ > On 4/25/07, Steve Molitor \ wrote: ---
**Author:** ![Philip\_Hallstrom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Philip\_Hallstrom](https://rubytalk.org/u/Philip_Hallstrom)\ **Post date:** [26 April 2007 22:27 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/using-ruby-in-a-corporate-environment/37210/2 "2007-04-26T22:27:20Z")
> Surprisingly, while most of the developers are either excited or at > least open to the idea, there are one or two developers who are > definitely opposed to Ruby. (OK, one to be precise: but there could > be others who haven't spoken out.) The objections are that Ruby is > not used or accepted enough in the corporate world, and that learning > Ruby won't help them make more money or more marketable (in the St. > Louis corporate world). If corporations start explicitly looking for > Ruby developers they'll learn it, but not until then. > > I'm not quite sure how to answer this one. While I do think that > something is going to succeed Java, I can't predict the future. I > can't truthfully say with assurance that Ruby will be the next big > thing in the corporate world. It \*might\* be, but it might not. > Personally I'm not concerned about what the next big thing might be; I > want a language that makes me and my fellow developers happy and more > productive. That's good for us and good for the business, I figure. > I have trouble understanding the narrow, strictly mercenary and > corporate focused point of view. Any ideas on convincing these folks? I can't see how learning a language even if it's not one actively being recruited for is a bad thing... I'd much rather hire someone who had used many languages than just the currently hyped one. Seems the more languages you know the easier it is to learn others quickly as well \ As for their wish to learn it only once corporations want it, that's fine with me, because when that time comes I'll not only have years of experience with Ruby, but I'll also have projects that have been \*in the field\* for years as well to back up my resume. \ my 2 cents, -philip ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8edcca/32.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://rubytalk.org/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [26 April 2007 23:07 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/using-ruby-in-a-corporate-environment/37210/3 "2007-04-26T23:07:11Z")
Sounds like pure fear or at least laziness to me, but you still have to deal with it. I'd say put these guys forward as those who can "maintain and improve existing applications". I'm sure that, regardless of your business, there are existing applications that need to stay alive, get the occasional bugfix, and even have custom code applied (maybe). Hopefully, your manager also cringes when he hears objections like this. Good luck! Justin > **···** > > On 4/26/07, Steve Molitor \ wrote: > > > be others who haven't spoken out.) The objections are that Ruby is > > not used or accepted enough in the corporate world, and that learning > > Ruby won't help them make more money or more marketable (in the St. > > Louis corporate world). If corporations start explicitly looking for > > Ruby developers they'll learn it, but not until then. > > > > I'm not quite sure how to answer this one. ---
**Author:** ![Phil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@Phil](https://rubytalk.org/u/Phil)\ **Post date:** [27 April 2007 05:14 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/using-ruby-in-a-corporate-environment/37210/4 "2007-04-27T05:14:17Z")
Steve Molitor wrote: > From: Curt Hibbs \ > not used or accepted enough in the corporate world, and that learning > Ruby won't help them make more money or more marketable (in the St. > Louis corporate world). If corporations start explicitly looking for > Ruby developers they'll learn it, but not until then. I'm channeling Catbert, Evil Director of Human Resources here: Start looking for developers skilled in Ruby. > I'm not quite sure how to answer this one. While I do think that > something is going to succeed Java, I can't predict the future. I > can't truthfully say with assurance that Ruby will be the next big > thing in the corporate world. It \*might\* be, but it might not. > Personally I'm not concerned about what the next big thing might be; I > want a language that makes me and my fellow developers happy and more > productive. That's good for us and good for the business, I figure. > I have trouble understanding the narrow, strictly mercenary and > corporate focused point of view. Any ideas on convincing these folks? Again the evil approach: add it to the job description. Either they learn it (their employer \*requires\* it), or they should start looking for new jobs. If their only reason for learning a language is "corporations look for it", they can't be that good as programmers, as they only learn the usage of a language, but not its philosophy. Which, methinks, is key to becoming a Great Programmer, and not be a code monkey or mercenary.. P.S.: I am not advocating to make those programmers redundant outright, but recommending them to maintenance tasks, as has been suggested, is a good solution, IMHO. > **···** > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > -- > Phillip "CynicalRyan" Gawlowski > [http://cynicalryan.110mb.com/](http://cynicalryan.110mb.com/) > [http://clothred.rubyforge.org](http://clothred.rubyforge.org) > > Rule of Open-Source Programming #9: > > Give me refactoring or give me death! ---
**Author:** ![Ddennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@Ddennison](https://rubytalk.org/u/Ddennison)\ **Post date:** [27 April 2007 14:46 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/using-ruby-in-a-corporate-environment/37210/5 "2007-04-27T14:46:15Z")
I'm also looking at Ruby/JRuby in a very large corporate setting. Those hurdles you are talking about are very real, and in many cases, very legitimate, so you have to do a lot of research and come up with a plan/strategy to get everyone from point A to point B. A roadmap. The parts of managing the system once it is deployed and the all the other non-sexy, non-programmy parts of running an enterprise is where you run into problems, and for good reason. There is a huge investment in time, training, blood, sweat and tears in getting all of the enterprise systems working. It takes years and years to build that kind of knowledge into the enterprise. While you can learn the framework and the basics and knock out simple things quickly, it is that last 10% that only comes with time and experience that is the show stopper. It might take a whole team of very experienced developers 2 weeks to figure out a problem that only happens when you are using version X of Linux with version Y of Weblogic along with Version Z of Oracle and you changed from Version 123.1 to Version 123.2 of the JRockit JVM. An enterprise making that kind of move is taking on incredible risk and therefore, you really have to nail down your roadmap to get it done. My own strategy so far is more of a ninja approach. 1. Start using Ruby/JRuby to do my offline work. I was able to produce a log parser on the fly to grab messages that had failed processing and requeue them in about 15-30 minutes while the other guys were still specing out the solution in Java. I did this in front of the boss and a number of developers who were quickly impressed. Considering I had been learning ruby for about 3 days, it was pretty cool =) 2. Do a lot of "water-cooler" selling. When you go to lunch or standing around talking during a break, tell people the cool things you've been doing with it. 3. Figure out ways to get it into the environment by leveraging the environment and not fighting it. If you are a Java shop, look at applications that have extensible systems and look at adding scripting support to those systems. I happen to have one that fits the bill nicely, so I'm adding that support now. 4. Figure out a way to get ruby/jruby to deploy using your existing infrastructure. In my case, how can I get JRuby/Ruby into an ear/war file and have it work? 5. Don't bite off more than you can chew. A lot of learning a language comes after years of struggling with issues, so don't use it with a full team of new Ruby/JRuby guys who all just read the book and did 'hello world'. Pick a small, one-off project and get your feet wet. Add to existing stuff if you can. Don't break anything =) 6. Worry about performance. Ruby/JRuby is so incredibly slow on benchmarks, no one is going to take you seriously if you try to use it for everything right now. When you see things like this: [http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-03-2005/jw-0314-scripting\_p.html](http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-03-2005/jw-0314-scripting_p.html) it is hard to make the case not to use a different scripting language just based on speed/familiarity. Groovy, Python/Jython, Javascript, etc, in my particular case. You better have an explanation ready about why in the heck it is that much slower than everything else and what you think is going to happen in the next year or so. 7. Address programmer concerns. You can laugh and be disheartened about people that don't want to use your newly found cool language, but it is their career they are worried about. Being confrontational about it isn't going to win you friends or sponsers. You are only going to convince people to change by showing them the benefits, not telling them about it. You have to remember that enterprise businesses are generally there to make a profit and they are not primarily IT shops. They don't care how cool or object-oriented or technically superior a product care. They really, really, couldn't care less. They care about the TOTAL-COST-OF-OWNERSHIP. They don't care that the tools are free and you can learn them in 10 minutes. They care about support costs, how it integrates with existing stuff, how much it will cost to staff up, how they can leverage to make more money or get more customers or reduce costs. So most of your arguments have to be business oriented.              Steve Molitor              \ To                                        ruby-talk@ruby-lang.org (ruby-talk              04/26/2007 05:01 ML)              PM cc                                                                                                                                                Subject              Please respond to Using Ruby in a Corporate              ruby-talk@ruby-la Environment                   ng.org > **···** > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Curt Hibbs \ > Date: Apr 26, 2007 12:41 PM > Subject: Re: [stlruby] St. Louis Companies Using Ruby > To: stlruby@yahoogroups.com > Cc: "St. Louis Ruby Users Group" \ > Curt, > > Thanks for some really helpful pointers. Love the Spolsky essay. I'm > sending it to my boss and our project managers. > > The two hurdles to using Ruby more at my company are convincing my > boss, and convincing the developers. My boss is worried about the > usual stuff: staffing, training, scalability, etc. You've helped me > with the staffing and training issues, and we can do some benchmarking > to test scalability. (Rails should scale just fine for our needs.) > > Surprisingly, while most of the developers are either excited or at > least open to the idea, there are one or two developers who are > definitely opposed to Ruby. (OK, one to be precise: but there could > be others who haven't spoken out.) The objections are that Ruby is > not used or accepted enough in the corporate world, and that learning > Ruby won't help them make more money or more marketable (in the St. > Louis corporate world). If corporations start explicitly looking for > Ruby developers they'll learn it, but not until then. > > I'm not quite sure how to answer this one. While I do think that > something is going to succeed Java, I can't predict the future. I > can't truthfully say with assurance that Ruby will be the next big > thing in the corporate world. It \*might\* be, but it might not. > Personally I'm not concerned about what the next big thing might be; I > want a language that makes me and my fellow developers happy and more > productive. That's good for us and good for the business, I figure. > I have trouble understanding the narrow, strictly mercenary and > corporate focused point of view. Any ideas on convincing these folks? > > Thanks again. > > Steve Molitor > > On 4/25/07, Steve Molitor \ wrote: > > > My company is thinking of moving to Ruby, and Ruby on Rails, in a fairly > > big way -- maybe to the point of making it the preferred language and > framework for new applications. We've been dabbling with Ruby and Rails in > one decent sized app and a few tiny apps. My boss is concerned about the > issues in transitioning a mostly Java shop to Ruby -- training, integrating > with the existing Java apps, etc. He would feel a lot better if he could > talk to folks from another St. Louis company who have made that transition. > Does anyone work in a corporate environment that uses Ruby extensively, or > know someone who does? And if so, can we talk to you? > > > Thanks! > > > > Steve Molitor > > First, let me just briefly mention that we are moving mailing list to > Google Groups (which I cc'd on this response). So, if you could join > our Google group and direct future messages there, it would be a big > help. > > I can't answer your primary question directly (other STL-RUG members > may have more direct information for you). But I can give you some > information. > > Training is available both locally and nationally. The Pragmatic > Programmer's Rails Studio (Dave Thomas and Mike Clark) is probably the > premier nationally given Rails training. Locally, Object Computing Inc > teaches both Ruby and Rails classes through Washington University's > CAIT program (our monthly meetings are held at OCI's offices). And two > of our members, Jeff Barczewski and Mike Sullivan, have formed a > training company (Inspired Horizons) that specializes in Rails > training. > > If you need to integrate Ruby with existing Java apps, then you > probably want to look closely at JRuby ([http://www.headius.com/](http://www.headius.com/) > jrubywiki/index.php/Main\_Page ). > > Finally, don't be intimidated by a lack of seasoned Ruby/Rails > programmers, just concentrate on hiring good programmers (they know > how to pick up new languages and technologies quickly). Joel Spolsky > put it very well in his essay "Sorting Resumes" (the whole thing is > worth reading): > > > **[Sorting Resumes](https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/09/08/sorting-resumes-2/)** > > > > The standard job application of cover letter plus resume is a phenomenally weak way to introduce a candidate. They give you only the faintest clues as to the quality of an applicant. Sometimes, tho… > > If I needed to hire someone to do Ruby development, someone with > extensive Smalltalk and Python experience who had never even heard of > Ruby would be a lot more likely to be successful than someone who read > a book about Ruby once. For someone who is basically a good software > developer, learning another programming language is just not going to > be a big deal. In two weeks they'll be pretty productive. > > I hope that helps... good luck and keep us posted on your progress! > > Curt > > . This message and any attachments contain information from Union Pacific which may be confidential and/or privileged. > If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited by law. If you receive this message in error, please contact the sender immediately and delete the message and any attachments. ---
**Author:** ![Forum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/43a26b/32.png) [@Forum](https://rubytalk.org/u/Forum)\ **Post date:** [27 April 2007 22:24 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/using-ruby-in-a-corporate-environment/37210/6 "2007-04-27T22:24:08Z")
> \ > [Sorting Resumes – Joel on Software](http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/SortingResumes.html) > If I needed to hire someone to do Ruby development, someone with > extensive Smalltalk and Python experience who had never even heard of > Ruby would be a lot more likely to be successful than someone who read > a book about Ruby once. For someone who is basically a good software > developer, learning another programming language is just not going to > be a big deal. In two weeks they'll be pretty productive. For sure, they will write beautiful Smalltalk and Python programs in Ruby. That does not necessarily mean that your decision is bad, but in order to push the team towards Ruby I'd at least hire one or two charismatic Ruby evangelists, and yes I am available 😉 Cheers Robert > **···** > > On 4/26/07, Steve Molitor \ wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > I hope that helps... good luck and keep us posted on your progress! > > > > Curt > > -- > You see things; and you say Why? > But I dream things that never were; and I say Why not? > -- George Bernard Shaw ---
**Author:** ![Alexey\_Verkhovsky1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@Alexey\_Verkhovsky1](https://rubytalk.org/u/Alexey_Verkhovsky1)\ **Post date:** [28 April 2007 13:02 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/using-ruby-in-a-corporate-environment/37210/7 "2007-04-28T13:02:01Z")
> The two hurdles to using Ruby more at my company are convincing my > boss, and convincing the developers. My boss is worried about the > usual stuff: staffing, training, scalability, etc. You've helped me > with the staffing and training issues, and we can do some benchmarking > to test scalability. (Rails should scale just fine for our needs.) Depends on what your needs are, but with modern hardware you can usually go a long way before you hit scalability ceiling, far enough for most web sites and business apps. > The objections are that Ruby is > not used or accepted enough in the corporate world, and that learning > Ruby won't help them make more money or more marketable (in the St. > Louis corporate world). I don't know about St.Louis, but personally I've been getting job offers roughly once a month since a year and half ago. Even though there isn't much Ruby in the city where I live, and I'm not even soliciting those job opportunities (I mean, I'm not looking for an indie gig for myself; ThoughtWorks is always on a lookout for Ruby work). There is a market for Ruby, and it is growing fast. Having Ruby on your CV now, if nothing else, marks you as a forward-looking technologist in the eyes of knowledgeable employers who watch industry trends. > If corporations start explicitly looking for > Ruby developers they'll learn it, but not until then. Like someone else said earlier in the thread, people with this attitude to new technologies really belong in the legacy/maintenance world (and will do just fine there). Should your IT strategy be driven by an effect it would have on someone's employability by \*some other company\*, anyway? > something is going to succeed Java, Java is very well entrenched, nothing is going to completely displace it any time soon. Ruby partially displacing Java to a significant degree (and perhaps completely displacing PHP) is a trend that we are already observing in ThoughtWorks customer base. We mostly work with large corporations. > Personally I'm not concerned about what the next big thing might be; In ThoughtWorks, we are obviously betting on Ruby, but we are a relatively large software consultancy, and it's not the only possible Next Big Thing we are betting on. Making this sort of bets is part of our business. Corporate IT departments, however, do not need to speculate about such things. The right question for you, guys, is: "(1) is Ruby big enough and (2) will it become obsolete within the lifespan of our application?". The answer to that question, from where I sit, looks like a certain "yes to (1), no to (2)" since about a year and half ago. Assuming that your planned application lifespan is less than 20 years, that is. By the way, my personal crystal ball also says that Java will be obsolete a good few years before Ruby. But that's just speculation again. > I have trouble understanding the narrow, strictly mercenary and > corporate focused point of view. Any ideas on convincing these folks? Convincing late adopters to adopt is an uphill battle probably not worth fighting. Instead, convince decision-makers that mercenary view is irrelevant to company interests, and do not include those people in the Ruby project team, at least not in the beginning. Corporate-focused view, on the other hand, is entirely appropriate. In many business IT scenarios, you really need fast time to market above everything else. If you are like that, Ruby is presently one of your best available choices. > **···** > > On 4/26/07, Steve Molitor \ wrote: > > -- > Best regards, > Alex Verkhovsky > ThoughtWorks ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Donald2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c37758/32.png) [@Greg\_Donald2](https://rubytalk.org/u/Greg_Donald2)\ **Post date:** [26 April 2007 22:54 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/using-ruby-in-a-corporate-environment/37210/8 "2007-04-26T22:54:18Z")
> Seems the more languages you know the easier it is to learn others > quickly as well I agree. But it's also much easier to get confused. Today I couldn't figure out why in the world my calls to trim() would not work in Python. After a while I finally realized I meant to use strip() not trim(). I guess working in Python by day and PHP at night is messing with my head a bit. > As for their wish to learn it only once corporations want it, that's fine > with me, because when that time comes I'll not only have years of > experience with Ruby, but I'll also have projects that have been \*in the > field\* for years as well to back up my resume. w0rd. > **···** > > On 4/26/07, Philip Hallstrom \ wrote: > > -- > Greg Donald > [http://destiney.com/](http://destiney.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Charles\_Oliver\_Nutte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@Charles\_Oliver\_Nutte](https://rubytalk.org/u/Charles_Oliver_Nutte)\ **Post date:** [27 April 2007 21:10 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/using-ruby-in-a-corporate-environment/37210/9 "2007-04-27T21:10:18Z")
DDENNISON@UP.COM wrote: > 4. Figure out a way to get ruby/jruby to deploy using your existing > infrastructure. In my case, how can I get JRuby/Ruby into an ear/war file > and have it work? That works now. See the JRuby wiki for information on how. It's basically just a rails plugin, then run "rake war:standalone:create". Done. > 6. Worry about performance. Ruby/JRuby is so incredibly slow on > benchmarks, no one is going to take you seriously if you try to use it for > everything right now. When you see things like this: > [http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-03-2005/jw-0314-scripting\_p.html](http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-03-2005/jw-0314-scripting_p.html) it That benchmark is so old man, we've improved by an order of magnitude since then. We're faster than Groovy at this point. - Charlie ---
**Author:** ![Philip\_Hallstrom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Philip\_Hallstrom](https://rubytalk.org/u/Philip_Hallstrom)\ **Post date:** [26 April 2007 23:02 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/using-ruby-in-a-corporate-environment/37210/10 "2007-04-26T23:02:25Z")
True, but that's the same with switching anything... I usually drive an automatic truck... but one day took my wife's stick sedan... I did fine, but I had to remember a couple of times that there was a clutch 🙂 And the bottom line is that if I hired you do to PHP full time you'd be de-confused in a day or two. How long would it take if you'd never even seen PHP till start day? Personally though I think there's something about PHP that is confusing... I tend to leave off semicolons these days and wonder why exactly it's complaining about a syntax error 🙂 -philip > **···** > > > On 4/26/07, Philip Hallstrom \ wrote: > > > > > Seems the more languages you know the easier it is to learn others > > > quickly as well > > > > I agree. But it's also much easier to get confused. Today I couldn't > > figure out why in the world my calls to trim() would not work in > > Python. After a while I finally realized I meant to use strip() not > > trim(). I guess working in Python by day and PHP at night is messing > > with my head a bit.