Status of Cardinal (was Re: Proposal to create a new mailing list)

Martin DeMello wrote:

To me, one major component of 'fun' is how well the 'grain' of the
language supports clean, abstract programming and problem solving in
the domain at hand. Ruby is a lot of fun, for example, because its
blocks make control structure abstraction not only easy, but the
*natural* way to solve a problem, because it speaks unix very well
indeed, and because it is sufficiently multiparadigm that you almost
never need to fight the language to do what you want to do.

Yes, as long as your problem can be naturally expressed as a mapping from real-world entities to objects and classes, Ruby is the natural way to do it. I have a problem, however, that's most naturally coded as vector and matrix operations. Moreover, the algorithm is already defined, and although there are real world "classes" of "objects" -- workload classes and service centers in a queuing network, as a matter of fact -- there's no "obvious" way to say the methods "belong" to a workload class or a service center, because most of them are a double loop over both workload classes and service centers. As a result, the whole idea of doing it in Ruby is losing its appeal, and I'm probably going to give up and write the whole thing in R. :frowning:

Lisp and Haskell are both almost as much fun as ruby, but a major win
for the latter is that it is the first (sufficiently powerful)
language where I've never had to wonder whether I'm using the language
wrong or simply approaching the problem wrong (I've had experiences in
both CL and Haskell where I was actually making a mistake in my
formulation of the problem, but my first instinct was nevertheless to
blame my grasp of the language. Doubtless that will go away as I get
more comfortable in said languages, but with ruby I was comfortable
from day one).

Lisp, at least the dialect I learned many years ago and still think in, is a very low-level language compared to Ruby. It is elegant and simple and clean and powerful and all that, but there really are only two data structures -- the dotted pair and the list. The impressions I've gotten of Haskell -- pretty sparse, except that I've read the works on Combinatory Logic by the man the language was named after, Haskell Curry -- is that if you think in combinators, it's great.

But I don't ... and I don't really think in lambda calculus or objects and classes either. I think in applied math, both numeric and symbolic, and in macro assembler and Boolean logic design. That's one reason I like Petri nets so much -- you can reduce them mechanically to matrix operations. :slight_smile:

···

--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given rabbits fire.

Wilson Bilkovich wrote:

···

On 1/3/07, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:

Wilson Bilkovich wrote:
> In Rubinius, fun is an object, just like stack frames and CPUs.
CPUs are objects in Rubinius? Do you have your own scheduler?

Yeah. We are planning to have M:N green->native thread mapping, so we
need to do some scheduling.

Very cool :slight_smile:

--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given rabbits fire.

Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

···

In message "Re: Fun languages (was Re: Status of Cardinal (was Re: > Proposal to create a new mailing list))" > on Thu, 4 Jan 2007 00:46:11 +0900, "M. Edward (Ed) Borasky" > <znmeb@cesmail.net> writes:

>Someone (Dave Thomas? Andy Hunt? DHH?) said that Ruby made programming
>fun *again*. So the obvious question is, "What languages were fun before
>there was Ruby?"

BASIC was fun for me, when I was in junior high. The point is that as
I grow up, the problem domain I am in charge become far more complex
than BASIC can handle. That's why I need Ruby.

Here's my list:

1. OCaml
2. Mathematica

F# is also fun but it is newer than Ruby.

--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy
Objective CAML for Scientists
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/ocaml_for_scientists/index.html?usenet

Smalltalk has always been fun for me (first environment I actually played with extensively); but in the last couple of years, Io has been a little more fun.

···

On 3-Jan-07, at 8:49 PM, Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

Hi,

In message "Re: Fun languages (was Re: Status of Cardinal (was Re: > Proposal to create a new mailing list))" > on Thu, 4 Jan 2007 00:46:11 +0900, "M. Edward (Ed) Borasky" > <znmeb@cesmail.net> writes:

>Someone (Dave Thomas? Andy Hunt? DHH?) said that Ruby made programming
>fun *again*. So the obvious question is, "What languages were fun before
>there was Ruby?"

BASIC was fun for me, when I was in junior high. The point is that as
I grow up, the problem domain I am in charge become far more complex
than BASIC can handle. That's why I need Ruby.

--
Jeremy Tregunna
jtregunna@blurgle.ca

Jon Harrop wrote:

Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:
  

>Someone (Dave Thomas? Andy Hunt? DHH?) said that Ruby made programming
>fun *again*. So the obvious question is, "What languages were fun before
>there was Ruby?"

BASIC was fun for me, when I was in junior high. The point is that as
I grow up, the problem domain I am in charge become far more complex
than BASIC can handle. That's why I need Ruby.
    
Here's my list:

1. OCaml
2. Mathematica

F# is also fun but it is newer than Ruby.
  

Mathematica is definitely fun, but expensive fun. Axiom is as much fun and is open source. :slight_smile:

···

In message "Re: Fun languages (was Re: Status of Cardinal (was Re: >> Proposal to create a new mailing list))" >> on Thu, 4 Jan 2007 00:46:11 +0900, "M. Edward (Ed) Borasky" >> <znmeb@cesmail.net> writes:

--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given rabbits fire.

> BASIC was fun for me, when I was in junior high. The point is that as
> I grow up, the problem domain I am in charge become far more complex
> than BASIC can handle. That's why I need Ruby.
>
BASIC was *never* fun for me. I was in grad school when it came out, and
by then I had extensive FORTRAN and macro assembler experience and was
fooling around with Lisp 1.5. I simply can't imagine the people who
bought Altairs and spent *hours* reading Microsoft BASIC into the 8K of
RAM from an ASR 33. :slight_smile:

Basic was loads of fun for me, I learnt it when I was 10 or 11 on a
TRS-80. I thought it was the coolest thing in the world.

I'm playing with Smalltalk, it's fun.

···

--
Giles Bowkett
http://www.gilesgoatboy.org

http://gilesgoatboy.blogspot.com

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

Hi,

>Someone (Dave Thomas? Andy Hunt? DHH?) said that Ruby made programming |fun *again*. So the obvious question is, "What languages were fun before |there was Ruby?"

BASIC was fun for me, when I was in junior high. The point is that as
I grow up, the problem domain I am in charge become far more complex
than BASIC can handle. That's why I need Ruby.

                            matz.

BASIC was *never* fun for me. I was in grad school when it came out, and by then I had extensive FORTRAN and macro assembler experience and was fooling around with Lisp 1.5. I simply can't imagine the people who bought Altairs and spent *hours* reading Microsoft BASIC into the 8K of RAM from an ASR 33. :slight_smile:

I have used Business Basic (a superset of Basic) professionally for over 20 years and like a lot of things about it. I love having screen and file handling built into the language. It makes it very easy to write programs, no having to worry about requiring files or linking. And debugging is even easier as I can stop a program at any point see what is going on, fix it, and continue. I started with Fortran on IBM and CDC mainframes but the language needed a lot of help to be user friendly or debugging. I spent over a week debugging a Fortran program that baffled even the heads of the computer department before finding out my problem was that I requested too much memory!

···

In message "Re: Fun languages (was Re: Status of Cardinal (was Re: >> Proposal to create a new mailing list))" >> on Thu, 4 Jan 2007 00:46:11 +0900, "M. Edward (Ed) Borasky" >> <znmeb@cesmail.net> writes:

Giles Bowkett wrote:

> BASIC was fun for me, when I was in junior high. The point is that as
> I grow up, the problem domain I am in charge become far more complex
> than BASIC can handle. That's why I need Ruby.
>
BASIC was *never* fun for me. I was in grad school when it came out, and
by then I had extensive FORTRAN and macro assembler experience and was
fooling around with Lisp 1.5. I simply can't imagine the people who
bought Altairs and spent *hours* reading Microsoft BASIC into the 8K of
RAM from an ASR 33. :slight_smile:

Basic was loads of fun for me, I learnt it when I was 10 or 11 on a
TRS-80. I thought it was the coolest thing in the world.

I'm playing with Smalltalk, it's fun.

Ah, but the TRS-80 had a built in cassette I/O and video interface -- you didn't need a clunky old (and large and expensive) ASR 33 to use it! And wasn't BASIC in the ROM on a TRS-80? The first Altairs didn't have any of that. And it wasn't much longer before there were floppy disks and "operating systems".

Yeah, Smalltalk would be fun if I had learned it a couple of decades ago. But I went down the Forth path then and the Ruby path now. Smalltalk seems like a distraction now. I'm actually looking at Ada again -- I just saw some info about Ada 2005 go by on another mailing list. Can Ada be fun? *Should* Ada be fun? :slight_smile:

···

--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given rabbits fire.

Octave is fun and free too :slight_smile:

My other vote would be for Brainf*ck... good masochistic fun.

···

On 1/4/07, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:

Mathematica is definitely fun, but expensive fun. Axiom is as much fun
and is open source. :slight_smile:

Zed introduced me to this the other day, and it looks like a good time:
http://factorcode.org/

···

On 1/4/07, Gregory Brown <gregory.t.brown@gmail.com> wrote:

On 1/4/07, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:

> Mathematica is definitely fun, but expensive fun. Axiom is as much fun
> and is open source. :slight_smile:

Octave is fun and free too :slight_smile:

My other vote would be for Brainf*ck... good masochistic fun.

Gregory Brown wrote:

Mathematica is definitely fun, but expensive fun. Axiom is as much fun
and is open source. :slight_smile:

Octave is fun and free too :slight_smile:

Octave is sorta kinda a free Matlab clone. And R is sorta kinda a free S-Plus clone.

My other vote would be for Brainf*ck... good masochistic fun.

I wo*ldn't to*ch that with a 10 foot pole!

···

On 1/4/07, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:

--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given rabbits fire.

Wilson Bilkovich wrote:

···

On 1/4/07, Gregory Brown <gregory.t.brown@gmail.com> wrote:

On 1/4/07, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:

> Mathematica is definitely fun, but expensive fun. Axiom is as much fun
> and is open source. :slight_smile:

Octave is fun and free too :slight_smile:

My other vote would be for Brainf*ck... good masochistic fun.

Zed introduced me to this the other day, and it looks like a good time:
http://factorcode.org/

Yeah , I just ran into that the other day too, following some trail of breadcrumbs on http://del.icio.us/znmeb concerning Forth. Zed has pretty good taste in languages -- I hope that Factor doesn't distract him from the wonderful Ruby work he's up to. :slight_smile:

--
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given rabbits fire.

Octave is a pretty good clone of Matlab, too. For at least my needs.
I had no trouble getting through a linear algebra course which
required matlab using it.

···

On 1/4/07, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:

Gregory Brown wrote:
> On 1/4/07, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky <znmeb@cesmail.net> wrote:
>
>> Mathematica is definitely fun, but expensive fun. Axiom is as much fun
>> and is open source. :slight_smile:
>
> Octave is fun and free too :slight_smile:
Octave is sorta kinda a free Matlab clone. And R is sorta kinda a free
S-Plus clone.