> Compared with - say - slashdot?
[snip]
I'm sure with sufficient effort somebody could run Amazon with a
large parallel group of highly trained stoats. Who cares 
That reminds me of the pc technologie:
http://www.google.com/technology/pigeonrank.html
regards,
Brian
···
On 12/08/05, Adrian Howard <adrianh@quietstars.com> wrote:
On 12 Aug 2005, at 16:39, Bradley Kite wrote:
There are large web sites built with Java, Perl, Ruby, C++, Lisp, C#,
PHP and god knows how many other languages. PHP and Perl didn't build
their market share because they were /faster/ - they built it because
they were /better/ (for certain definitions of "better").
Perl's big advantage is that it's a nice flexible language that
enable you to build applications quickly and reliably (despite what
some people say
Ruby's advantage over Perl 5 is that it does some stuff that Perl 5
can't do, and makes much of the stuff it can do easier (in certain
areas anyway).
Compare the simplicity of overriding some_method= with messing with
lvalue subs and tied variables to get the same affect in Perl 5. Some
things are simpler and, when it comes to writing and maintaining
code, simpler is better.
Adrian
--
http://ruby.brian-schroeder.de/
Stringed instrument chords: http://chordlist.brian-schroeder.de/
Hello Adrian,
Perl's big advantage is that it's a nice flexible language that
enable you to build applications quickly and reliably (despite what
some people say
I think it's biggest advantage is that is is so long out there, that
it just has its market share. And it won that market share via the
sysadmins - for which is was always designed from the beginning.
···
--
Best regards, emailto: scholz at scriptolutions dot com
Lothar Scholz http://www.ruby-ide.com
CTO Scriptolutions Ruby, PHP, Python IDE 's
Very true.
Those definitions of better can vary greatly depending on what you're
coding too.
Thanks to Rails, I think we'll see Ruby's market share (on the web)
increase drastically in time to come.
IMO Ruby (on rails) offers much faster development, and near instant
productivity. That is a great achievement that no other
language/framework can come close to.
As always, it's a matter of "the right tool for the job".
Like perl, ruby can do many jobs.
Also (IMO) ruby offers a nice bridge to all forms of programming (cli,
gui, web), and as many have said before.... it's just a joy to work
in!
···
On 8/12/05, Adrian Howard <adrianh@quietstars.com> wrote:
I'm sure with sufficient effort somebody could run Amazon with a
large parallel group of highly trained stoats. Who cares
There are large web sites built with Java, Perl, Ruby, C++, Lisp, C#,
PHP and god knows how many other languages. PHP and Perl didn't build
their market share because they were /faster/ - they built it because
they were /better/ (for certain definitions of "better").
--
Chris Martin
Web Developer
Open Source & Web Standards Advocate
Performance is a consideration, but it is only one of many. I switched to
Ruby because of tangible reasons -- for web work I could do it under Ruby and
the framework of my choice faster than I could with anything I had experience
in Perl 3 years ago -- and also for intangibles -- as a long time Perl user
at that time, I found Ruby's syntax to be tremendously more enjoyable to work
with than Perl 5's.
But performance is still a factor. I originally had some concern that Ruby
seemed to be slower than Perl. However, as many people have said,
performance only becomes important when it becomes a problem, and it just
isn't a problem with Ruby, for me.
In my experience, you should choose a language that you are productive and
comfortable with. Performance issues for any language that cannot be
addressed by changing the algorithims used will be dealt with by rewritting
the appropriate pieces in a lower level language. For scripting languages,
that usually means C. For C, that usually means assembly (at the expense
of portability).
Those performance bottlenecks that must be written in a lower level
language are probably going to be just a small part of the overall program
and will have to be written in a lower level language no matter what
scripting language you are using.
Therefore, being comfortable with the language you are using will lead to
more productivity than language performance factors.
For me, Ruby fits the way I like to program better than any other scripting
language that I am familiar with.
Ruby is plenty fast.
I agree!
Rick
···
On Sat, Aug 13, 2005 at 02:55:51AM +0900, Kirk Haines wrote:
--
Rick Nooner
rick@nooner.net
[snip]
i hope parrot dies on the vine...but it doesn't look like it's going to
Why? Rather nice VM to play with
I think perl6 has some very interesting things[1]
it's too bad larry wall caved to the python people. is perl5 ugly?
To the Python people? I'd like to find one Python fan who would agree with you on that! Perl 6 is just about as far from Python as I can imagine a language to be
Adrian
···
On 13 Aug 2005, at 17:19, tony summerfelt wrote:
I hate to bring up the actual thread topic.. but isn't the original
poster basically just benchmarking startup time, something that is
currently one of Ruby's weak points?
Isaac,
I'm done responding to you. None of my statements about the
fundamental problems of the shootout and your (apparent)
administration (or boosterism, at a minimum) are false or baseless.
They are well documented over the last several months -- pretty much
every time someone brings up the question of the Alioth shootout.
(Frankly, the Debian people ought to be embarrassed that this is
hosted with them. It's an embarrassment to people who know better.)
I've told you how you can fix at least part of this. It won't make the
shootout anything really worthwhile, but it will reduce the outright
*wrong* things.
But mostly, the best thing to do would be to give it up. It's crap --
and nothing will change that.
-austin
···
On 8/15/05, Isaac Gouy <igouy@yahoo.com> wrote:
Austin Ziegler wrote:
> That's only because they're uninformed or blinkered by the false
> presentation on the shootout.
"false presentation" - another baseless accusation?
What specifically is false about the presentation?
--
Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com
* Alternate: austin@halostatue.ca
Hi Isaac,
Austin 'lead' quite an involved and lengthy discussion about
benchmarks (including the Alioth and Ackermann) just two months ago.
Before you leap into the fray, take a look:
http://www.ruby-talk.org/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/145390
If you do a google search of ruby-talk.org for 'austin alioth', or
just 'austin benchmarks' you can get even more on his opinion. I
highly recommend reading through the arguments and counter arguments
before we do a complete reproduction here.
But, hey, if you've got something to say beyond all that has already
been said, don't let me stop you 
I'm just trying to save us (and
you) from more of the same-old-same-old discussions.
Dan
[snip]
> Perl's big advantage is that it's a nice flexible language that
> enable you to build applications quickly and reliably (despite what
> some people say
I think it's biggest advantage is that is is so long out there, that
it just has its market share. And it won that market share via the
sysadmins - for which is was always designed from the beginning.
There are certainly bits of Perl I dislike, and there is much that is harder than it should be, but given a choice between Java, Perl and PHP I'd pick Perl almost every time.
Now if you added Ruby or Lisp to the mix I might have to think hard
Adrian
···
On 12 Aug 2005, at 17:45, Lothar Scholz wrote:
i think python has been out there as long as perl has? seems to me i
read that somewhere...
one of the things i really like about ruby is some of the perlisms i
can use like 'if' after another statement:
mylog.trim if mylog.size > 1000
ruby has a pretty good level of tim toadie as we can see with the
cartesian product thread.
i never felt comfortable with python code because i was told the way i
was doing it was always wrong. with ruby i can ease into more consise
ruby code, but still have others ok with my code as it currently stands.
···
Lothar Scholz wrote on 8/12/2005 12:45 PM:
> Perl's big advantage is that it's a nice flexible language that
I think it's biggest advantage is that is is so long out there,
--
http://home.cogeco.ca/~tsummerfelt1
telnet://ventedspleen.dyndns.org
[snip]
Thanks to Rails, I think we'll see Ruby's market share (on the web)
increase drastically in time to come.
I agree.
IMO Ruby (on rails) offers much faster development, and near instant
productivity. That is a great achievement that no other
language/framework can come close to.
[snip]
I think the advantage is more Ruby than Rails if you see what I mean. Framework wise I feel as productive in one of the perl frameworks as I do in Rails. The framework isn't the thing that makes Rails attractive to me, it's Ruby.
What Rails did, and what WTR did to a different audience, was demonstrate to a whole bunch of people what a really excellent language Ruby is.
Cheers,
Adrian
···
On 12 Aug 2005, at 17:52, Chris Martin wrote:
'tim toadie' is how the anagram
tmtowtdi
is pronounced. which stands for "there's more than one way to do it".
it's like the catchy saying for perl, which allows coders to write in
different ways. the jury's out about whether this is great or not, and comes
down to personal choice. ruby is toady itself.
best
luke
"Julian Leviston" <julian@coretech.net.au> wrote in message
news:7AF9BAAD-AF9C-43D2-8BC1-A351E34FB212@coretech.net.au...
···
what's time toadie?
On 14/08/2005, at 2:19 AM, tony summerfelt wrote:
> gabriele renzi wrote on 8/12/2005 6:26 PM:
>
>
>> first, let me state that I do have great hopes for parrot,
>>
>
> i hope parrot dies on the vine...but it doesn't look like it's
> going to
>
>
>> I think perl6 has some very interesting things[1]
>>
>
> it's too bad larry wall caved to the python people. is perl5 ugly? you
> betcha i like everything about perl, tim toadie, perl magic,
> line noise
>
> most of the perl code i write on windows is technically perl4, and i
> can use a 345k dos executable to run/distribute it. very quick
> execution. i have the latest perl5 installed but most of the quick and
> dirty stuff i write is 4
>
> --
> http://home.cogeco.ca/~tsummerfelt1
> telnet://ventedspleen.dyndns.org
>
>
>
my point was there doesn't need to be a perl6.
perl is what it is. those that like it use it, those that don't, don't.
···
Adrian Howard wrote on 8/15/2005 5:48 AM: > with you on that! Perl 6 is just about as far from Python as I can > imagine a language to be
--
http://home.cogeco.ca/~tsummerfelt1
telnet://ventedspleen.dyndns.org
it started off as an april's fools joke on slashdot (about combining
perl and python or something like that, i still have the page saved
somewhere). the name suggests that perlers were joke's intended target.
···
Adrian Howard wrote on 8/15/2005 5:48 AM:
i hope parrot dies on the vine...but it doesn't look like it's going to
Why?
--
http://home.cogeco.ca/~tsummerfelt1
telnet://ventedspleen.dyndns.org
Robert Klemme wrote:
It was in the white space but apparently my news client had deleted it.
Not in the whitespaces, it's written black on white. This is my first try in Socratic Trolling, so cut me some slack, ok? 
···
--
Florian Frank
Daniel Amelang wrote:
-snip-
I highly recommend reading through the arguments and counter arguments
before we do a complete reproduction here.
Thank you Daniel, you might notice my name in those discussions.
As you've mentioned, other folk on ruby-talk presented
counter-arguments to Austin's claims - afaict those counter-arguments
were never rebutted.
-snip-
I'm just trying to save us (and
you) from more of the same-old-same-old discussions.
If there's any substance behind the name-calling we should be able to
point-out specific errors on the shootout.
http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/fulldata.php?test=takfp&p1=ruby-0&p2=php-0&p3=psyco-0&p4=lua-0&sort=fullcpu
Wilson Bilkovich wrote:
I hate to bring up the actual thread topic.. but isn't the original
poster basically just benchmarking startup time, something that is
currently one of Ruby's weak points?
Do you think startup time is large compared to a runtime of nearly a
minute?
Austin Ziegler wrote:
> Austin Ziegler wrote:
> > That's only because they're uninformed or blinkered by the false
> > presentation on the shootout.
> "false presentation" - another baseless accusation?
>
> What specifically is false about the presentation?
Isaac,
I'm done responding to you. None of my statements about the
fundamental problems of the shootout and your (apparent)
administration (or boosterism, at a minimum) are false or baseless.
Just a few days ago, you made claims which are baseless.
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.ruby/msg/9716aeda66f54a17?hl=en&
They are well documented over the last several months -- pretty much
every time someone brings up the question of the Alioth shootout.
You're repeated claims are well documented - that doesn't make them
true.
···
On 8/15/05, Isaac Gouy <igouy@yahoo.com> wrote:
(Frankly, the Debian people ought to be embarrassed that this is
hosted with them. It's an embarrassment to people who know better.)
I've told you how you can fix at least part of this. It won't make the
shootout anything really worthwhile, but it will reduce the outright
*wrong* things.
But mostly, the best thing to do would be to give it up. It's crap --
and nothing will change that.
-austin
--
Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com
* Alternate: austin@halostatue.ca
I'm just trying to save us (and