OT: vi useability question

ruby-talk
1

//Straying further off-topic, I switched to Dvorak when I got
//it, a couple off weeks ago. Those were the most

may I ask,
how many weeks did it take for you to switch/adjust to dvorak typing?

if you switch back to qwerty, do you get problems? or does the mind+hand
adjust automatically as if riding a bike? :slight_smile: I'm asking since I may use a
dvorak keyb at home will qwerty at the office/friends/cafes...
thanks for info.

//
//Hugs and kisses,
//Mikael
//

kind regards -botp

···

Mikael Brockman [mailto:mikael@phubuh.org] wrote:

2

* "Pe?a, Botp" <botp@delmonte-phil.com> [1210 11:10]:

//Straying further off-topic, I switched to Dvorak when I got
//it, a couple off weeks ago. Those were the most

may I ask,
how many weeks did it take for you to switch/adjust to dvorak typing?

I'm not Mikael, but it took me about six weeks to get back up to speed
(I stuck a keyboard diagram to each side of the monitor until I trained
my fingers).

if you switch back to qwerty, do you get problems?

Well, it really hurts :slight_smile: I fall back to hunt and peck when forced to use
qwerty, but since I touchtype now (never got the knack under qwerty), I just
remap the keyboard and keep using dvorak.

···

Mikael Brockman [mailto:mikael@phubuh.org] wrote:

--
'Everyone's always in favour of saving Hitler's brain, but when you put it
in the body of a Great White shark suddenly you've gone too far..'
    -- Prof. Farnsworth
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns

3

"Peña, Botp" <botp@delmonte-phil.com> writes:

//Straying further off-topic, I switched to Dvorak when I got
//it, a couple off weeks ago. Those were the most

may I ask,
how many weeks did it take for you to switch/adjust to dvorak typing?

Two or three. I went cold turkey -- didn't let myself switch back. I'm
not great at it yet, though. I type at about 5 correct keys a second,
but I make some mistakes. I'm bad at the parens and braces and stuff,
because I haven't been able to write any code. Hanging out on IRC is
really good practice. I do a round of dvorak7min every night, too.
(http://www.linalco.com/ragnar/dvorak7min-1.6.1.tar.gz\)

if you switch back to qwerty, do you get problems? or does the mind+hand
adjust automatically as if riding a bike? :slight_smile: I'm asking since I may use a
dvorak keyb at home will qwerty at the office/friends/cafes...
thanks for info.

I haven't tried in a while. Let's see... OK, that's weird. Looking at
the keyboard, I can type fluently. Not by searching after the keys --
my fingers know where they are. But when I look up, I turn to Dvorak
mode automatically, and I get confused. I've heard that you get good at
switching between them, though.

By the way, it's easy to change the layout on most systems.

···

Mikael Brockman [mailto:mikael@phubuh.org] wrote:

4

Peña, Botp wrote:

···

Mikael Brockman [mailto:mikael@phubuh.org] wrote:

//Straying further off-topic, I switched to Dvorak when I got
//it, a couple off weeks ago. Those were the most

may I ask,
how many weeks did it take for you to switch/adjust to dvorak typing?

if you switch back to qwerty, do you get problems? or does the mind+hand
adjust automatically as if riding a bike? :slight_smile: I'm asking since I may use a
dvorak keyb at home will qwerty at the office/friends/cafes...
thanks for info.

I'd like to ask another question based on this post. I use QWERTY. I have a coworker who uses Dvorak. I type 112 words per minute. He types 56. Based on that alone I failed to see the reason to switch. Any one out there notice an increase in their typing speed for using Dvorak?

Thanks,

Zach

5

Dick Davies <rasputnik@hellooperator.net> writes:

* "Pe?a, Botp" <botp@delmonte-phil.com> [1210 11:10]:
>
> //Straying further off-topic, I switched to Dvorak when I got
> //it, a couple off weeks ago. Those were the most
>
> if you switch back to qwerty, do you get problems?

Well, it really hurts :slight_smile:

Yes -- it's painfully obvious how much QWERTY sucks when you're used to
Dvorak. You notice your fingers flying all over the place, often typing
long words with just one hand. :slight_smile:

···

> Mikael Brockman [mailto:mikael@phubuh.org] wrote:

6

i've been using qwerty since '78...my cruising speed from that date on
has been 125 wpm, and i've hit 175 wpm when i'm really inspired...

i suppose i could learn dvorak for my own computer but the OTHER 170
computers i have to be on are all qwerty... :slight_smile:
http://home.cogeco.ca/~tsummerfelt1
telnet://ventedspleen.dyndns.org

···

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:28:19 +0900, you wrote:

I'd like to ask another question based on this post. I use QWERTY. I
have a coworker who uses Dvorak. I type 112 words per minute.

7

* Zach Dennis <zdennis@mktec.com> [1228 02:28]:

I'd like to ask another question based on this post. I use QWERTY. I
have a coworker who uses Dvorak. I type 112 words per minute. He types
56. Based on that alone I failed to see the reason to switch. Any one
out there notice an increase in their typing speed for using Dvorak?

I switched because of RSI, not for speed.
Made a big difference to me.

···

--
'Oh. Your. God.'
    -- Bender
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns

8

To get somewhat back on the off-topic. How do you all handle vim in
dvoraks mode?

I've decided to try and switch out of curiosity but hit the first
hurdle when I realized that vim is optimized for qwerty.

I've tried to find mappings for vim in dvoraks mode, but the only site
that seems to have it seems down; so I wonder how the rest of you
manage?

Still use hjkl and can manage that they're not next to each other anymore?
Remapped them to dhtn? What did you use for 'delete' then?
Remap entire keyboard to qwerty for command mode? (so 'dw' would be 'e,')
Switched editor?

Any shared configuration files would be fantastic.

//F, not doing very well in dvoraks7min, yet.

···

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:16:14 +0900, Dick Davies <rasputnik@hellooperator.net> wrote:

I'm not Mikael, but it took me about six weeks to get back up to speed

9

Zach Dennis wrote:

I'd like to ask another question based on this post. I use QWERTY. I have a coworker who uses Dvorak. I type 112 words per minute. He types 56. Based on that alone I failed to see the reason to switch. Any one out there notice an increase in their typing speed for using Dvorak?

Can you think that fast? It may be that your coworker doesn't need to type much faster.

I type about 67 wpm (qwerty) and I have no doubt that the reason I don't type faster is that the process is brain-bound. If I were doing secretarial work it would be another story. I can type "instantaneous" compared to the brainwork of the coding/sysadminning that I do.

I'm a pianist and organist, and my fingers are accustomed to rapid movement. That is why I believe it is the lack of need that keeps me from typing faster.

10

* Fredrik Jagenheim <jagenheim@gmail.com> [1223 13:23]:

···

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:16:14 +0900, Dick Davies > <rasputnik@hellooperator.net> wrote:
>
> I'm not Mikael, but it took me about six weeks to get back up to speed

To get somewhat back on the off-topic. How do you all handle vim in
dvoraks mode?

I've decided to try and switch out of curiosity but hit the first
hurdle when I realized that vim is optimized for qwerty.

I've tried to find mappings for vim in dvoraks mode, but the only site
that seems to have it seems down; so I wonder how the rest of you
manage?

use arrow keys :slight_smile: well, actually I use that touchstream stealth thing I posted
about the other day, so I slide two fingers around on the lefthand keypad....

--
'zzz..Kill all humans. Kill all humans..zzz .....
I was having the most wonderous dream. You were in it.'
    -- Bender
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns

11

An interesting refutation of dvorak superiority. Anyone know of any
other studies?

http://wwwpub.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/harvj/harvard.html

Regards,
Nick

···

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:38:13 +0900, Mikael Brockman <mikael@phubuh.org> wrote:

Dick Davies <rasputnik@hellooperator.net> writes:

> * "Pe?a, Botp" <botp@delmonte-phil.com> [1210 11:10]:
> > Mikael Brockman [mailto:mikael@phubuh.org] wrote:
> >
> > //Straying further off-topic, I switched to Dvorak when I got
> > //it, a couple off weeks ago. Those were the most
> >
> > if you switch back to qwerty, do you get problems?
>
> Well, it really hurts :slight_smile:

Yes -- it's painfully obvious how much QWERTY sucks when you're used to
Dvorak. You notice your fingers flying all over the place, often typing
long words with just one hand. :slight_smile:

--
Nicholas Van Weerdenburg

12

Fredrik Jagenheim wrote:

I've decided to try and switch out of curiosity but hit the first
hurdle when I realized that vim is optimized for qwerty.

I haven't yet gone 100% on dvorak, or reached my qwerty speed. I blame my impatience (I'm used to typing being an "instantaneous" activity). But I have a friend who has, and his claim is that vim is perfectly usable with dvorak settings. He says you just get used to where hjkl are.

I have learned dvorak up to about 10 or 20 wpm, and I've found that switching between keyboards isn't an issue for me. I can switch back to qwerty after a day in dvorak without any problems, and I can switch to dvorak without problems either, except of course that I have to think harder and don't go as fast (yet, obviously).

Maybe over the holidays...

13

Fredrik Jagenheim wrote:

I've decided to try and switch out of curiosity but hit the first
hurdle when I realized that vim is optimized for qwerty.

I've tried to find mappings for vim in dvoraks mode, but the only site
that seems to have it seems down; so I wonder how the rest of you
manage?

>

Still use hjkl and can manage that they're not next to each other anymore?
Remapped them to dhtn? What did you use for 'delete' then?
Remap entire keyboard to qwerty for command mode? (so 'dw' would be 'e,')
Switched editor?

No special mappings whatsoever. That path leads to madness. It's quite confusing for a while using the same old characters for Vim commands, but at different locations on the keyboard. But it was confusing when you started using Vim on Qwerty, too. You'll get the hang of it.

Actually, hjkl are still in not-too-difficult positions. J and K are where C and V are in Qwerty (still next to each other, J still on the left). H and L are where J and P are in Qwerty (H still on the left, L still on the right). Overall the change is not too bad.

I actually did switch to Emacs about five months ago... which was two months after switching to Dvorak. Talk about confusing. Switching to Dvorak basically necessitated relearning Vim, and then I switched to Emacs! And now I think I've used Emacs for long enough; I'm switching back to Vim. Call me a masochist. :slight_smile:

//F, not doing very well in dvoraks7min, yet.

Don't worry, it will come. The first month is particularly frustrating. For me, it's been seven months since beginning to use Dvorak, and I now type at least as fast as I did with Qwerty (70-80 WPM). Probably faster, and definitely more comfortable. I'd never go back.

I feel like making some reference to Ruby to stay on-topic, but I can't think of anything to say. (Ruby rules.)

···

--
Michael W Thelen
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with
potatoes. -- Douglas Adams

14

And a refutation of the refutation...

···

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:47:07 -0500, Nicholas Van Weerdenburg <vanweerd@gmail.com> wrote:

An interesting refutation of dvorak superiority. Anyone know of any
other studies?

http://wwwpub.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/harvj/harvard.html

Regards,
Nick

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:38:13 +0900, Mikael Brockman <mikael@phubuh.org> wrote:
> Dick Davies <rasputnik@hellooperator.net> writes:
>
> > * "Pe?a, Botp" <botp@delmonte-phil.com> [1210 11:10]:
> > > Mikael Brockman [mailto:mikael@phubuh.org] wrote:
> > >
> > > //Straying further off-topic, I switched to Dvorak when I got
> > > //it, a couple off weeks ago. Those were the most
> > >
> > > if you switch back to qwerty, do you get problems?
> >
> > Well, it really hurts :slight_smile:
>
> Yes -- it's painfully obvious how much QWERTY sucks when you're used to
> Dvorak. You notice your fingers flying all over the place, often typing
> long words with just one hand. :slight_smile:
>
>

--
Nicholas Van Weerdenburg

--
Nicholas Van Weerdenburg

15

Do you use the touchstream gestures? How do like the keyboard for
reasons other then RSI?

The gestures look pretty cool. I'm now disappointed all keyboards
don't support that- it's a interface possibility of a keyboard that is
orthogonal to typing, and thus non-intrusively overlayed.

I'm way to interested in this thread. There are so many many
interesting people on ruby-talk, OT is usually pretty cool. Maybe
there should have a ruby-ot mailing list to enable the ruby community
to collaborate in orthogonal directions without annoying the core
mailing list.

Thanks,
Nick

···

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 22:49:32 +0900, Dick Davies <rasputnik@hellooperator.net> wrote:

* Fredrik Jagenheim <jagenheim@gmail.com> [1223 13:23]:
> On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:16:14 +0900, Dick Davies > > <rasputnik@hellooperator.net> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not Mikael, but it took me about six weeks to get back up to speed
>
> To get somewhat back on the off-topic. How do you all handle vim in
> dvoraks mode?
>
> I've decided to try and switch out of curiosity but hit the first
> hurdle when I realized that vim is optimized for qwerty.
>
> I've tried to find mappings for vim in dvoraks mode, but the only site
> that seems to have it seems down; so I wonder how the rest of you
> manage?

use arrow keys :slight_smile: well, actually I use that touchstream stealth thing I posted
about the other day, so I slide two fingers around on the lefthand keypad....

--
'zzz..Kill all humans. Kill all humans..zzz .....
I was having the most wonderous dream. You were in it.'
                -- Bender
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns

--
Nicholas Van Weerdenburg

16

* Nicholas Van Weerdenburg <vanweerd@gmail.com> [1214 15:14]:

An interesting refutation of dvorak superiority. Anyone know of any
other studies?

http://wwwpub.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/harvj/harvard.html

Isn't that one of the studies refuted in the link someone posted yesterday? :slight_smile:

Bear in mind most Dvorak users have used QWERTY, I'm not sure that's true
the other way round.

Use what you like at the end of the day, it's not like I'm on commission
or anything.
It feels nicer to me, that's all. However, I like Marmite, thought the Big
Blue was one of the most boring films I've ever seen and prefer redheads
to blondes, so bear in mind I'm not you...

···

--
'Oh how awful. Did he at least die peacefully? ....To shreds you say, tsk tsk tsk.
Well, how's his wife holding up? ....To shreds, you say...'
    -- Prof. Farnsworth
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns

17

Nicholas Van Weerdenburg <vanweerd@gmail.com> writes:

And a refutation of the refutation...

http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/dissent.html

> An interesting refutation of dvorak superiority. Anyone know of any
> other studies?
>
> http://wwwpub.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/harvj/harvard.html

Well just based on the sample presented here it's not clear
that one or the other layout is supreior so there may well
be a preference or mental processing aspect.

It's probably covered in the reference marterial from the
Liebowitz piece but QUERY emereged as a standard when
there was lots of competition amoung typewriter manufacturers
and a lot of different key lay outs for the typewriter.
If I recall correctly there were even some that were
similar to Dvorak's.

At this point though, who cares? You can map the keys
anyway you want and there's no physical constraints
on the speed the keys are pressed as with mechancial
writers.

John

···

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:47:07 -0500, Nicholas Van Weerdenburg > <vanweerd@gmail.com> wrote:

18

How bout writting a Dvorak typing tutorial in Ruby? Then maybe I'd give it a
go.

Speaking of which (and sorry I haven't followed this thread more) there are a
number of things I think keyboard could use to "modernize". Some that I've
thought of:

  * A distinction between hyphen and minus.
  * Infinity symbol
  * Keys for Bold/Strong, Italic/Emphasis and Underline.
  * A Page key instead of pgdn and pgup so combos work:
      Pg+Up (page up)
      Pg+Dn (page down)
      Pg+Home (top of page)
      Pg+x (close tab or window)
      etc.
  * Change the Alt key's name to Menu.
  * A real Alt key, allows a key to have a variat symbol
    and antoehr Shift+Alt symbol. Think C64! Plus it could be
    used to provide literal representations of certain codes
    like ESC and SPACE.

Anyone have other ideas?

T.

···

On Friday 24 December 2004 11:45 am, Michael W Thelen wrote:

I feel like making some reference to Ruby to stay on-topic, but I can't
think of anything to say. (Ruby rules.)

19

* Nicholas Van Weerdenburg <vanweerd@gmail.com> [1242 14:42]:

>

Do you use the touchstream gestures? How do like the keyboard for
reasons other then RSI?

It's the best hardware ever. I can't believe anyone still uses those
things with the keys the size of sugarcubes.

It presents to the OS as a usb hub with keyboard and mouse attached,
and the firmware keeps all it's settings - for instance, the machine
I'm typing on now thinks this is a standard us keyboard, but it's a
us dvorak layout.
No need to configure the OS at all.
The keyboard handles the character conversion transparently, so I
can plug it into anything from a mac to a solaris
box and don't need to dick about with X settings (or xps stupid habit
of installing a keyboard driver per window if you have multiple keymaps
installed).

It has a java gui configurator (I was really surprised I didn't have to
use a winders box to set it up), and if that's too heavyweight - personally
I cant' abide jvms - you just click in a textfield (or a command line, or a
mail composition window like this one) and press all 4 corners, like this:

## Choose Mode: 1=Mac 2=Win 3=3rdButton 4=Linux 7=Emacs ... ENABLING: Thumb+Index+Middle for Middle Button, Thumb+Ring+Pinky for Right Button ##3

and configure it that way :slight_smile:

I make an effort to learn a couple of gestures a month, usually when
something hurts (for example I was getting twitches from reaching down
for shift/ctrl/alt, turns out you can enable:

all 4 fingers on one sides home row => shift
all 4 fingers on one sides top row => ctrl
all 4 fingers on one sides bottom row => alt

which sounds a bit 'leet', but it saves me literally wincing with pain,
so I love it.)

Next thing to get into the habit of is

all 8 fingers on tops row => toggle caps
and (can't remember) => enter

I don't bother with the app specific stuff, it makes more sense to just
learn the presses imo.

True, it's not the cheapest board in the world, but it keeps a roof over
my familys head (I was contracting when I got RSI, so I would have been
jobless if I hadn't fixed it myself).

I spend all day with this thing, so what's a couple of hundred bucks?

The gestures look pretty cool. I'm now disappointed all keyboards
don't support that- it's a interface possibility of a keyboard that is
orthogonal to typing, and thus non-intrusively overlayed.

I know, it even has quake (or emacs) mode :slight_smile:

....., OT is usually pretty cool. Maybe
there should have a ruby-ot mailing list to enable the ruby community
to collaborate in orthogonal directions without annoying the core
mailing list.

But annoying the core list is basically all I do.... :slight_smile:

···

--
'Everybody's a jerk. You, me, this jerk.'
    -- Bender
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns

20

I've read that querty was created to slow down typing on typewriters,
because of mechanical issues. It was kept for compatibility reasons.
Read more about it here

Looks like the same reason people still are using C...

KB

···

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 01:03:27 +0900, Dick Davies wrote:

* Nicholas Van Weerdenburg <vanweerd@gmail.com> [1214 15:14]:

An interesting refutation of dvorak superiority. Anyone know of any
other studies?

http://wwwpub.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/harvj/harvard.html

Isn't that one of the studies refuted in the link someone posted yesterday? :slight_smile:

Bear in mind most Dvorak users have used QWERTY, I'm not sure that's true
the other way round.

Use what you like at the end of the day, it's not like I'm on commission
or anything.
It feels nicer to me, that's all. However, I like Marmite, thought the Big
Blue was one of the most boring films I've ever seen and prefer redheads
to blondes, so bear in mind I'm not you...