OSCON report

I was following along, agreeing with the presentation, until he said
“Simplicity is NOT a Goal”.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: why the lucky stiff [mailto:ruby-talk@whytheluckystiff.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 4:03 PM
To: ruby-talk@ruby-lang.org
Subject: Re: OSCON report

On Thursday 10 July 2003 02:53 pm, Armin Roehrl wrote:

I would love to see these slides online.

An amazing and evokative talk. I believe this is the same.

http://www.rubyist.net/~matz/slides/oscon2003/index.html

_why


WARNING: All e-mail sent to and from this address will be received or
otherwise recorded by the A.G. Edwards corporate e-mail system and is
subject to archival, monitoring or review by, and/or disclosure to,
someone other than the recipient.


I was following along, agreeing with the presentation, until he said
“Simplicity is NOT a Goal”.

I just paged through and read that too. It surprised me, but I looked
at the link – Succinctness is Power – and read it. I was
surprised at what he had to say, too.

Ruby isn’t simple. It’s easy to do simple things in, but that’s not the
same at all. It’s complex in a real sort of way: it models things
well. Real software has messy side-effects, edge-cases, and exceptions
to the rules. Ruby supports all that.

I think I rather like simplicity not being a goal… if simplicity were
a high priority, you end up with a stripped, featureless language (BASIC
is simple…). Instead, ruby makes things easy, which I find more
useful. A large but well-named API is easily navigable with a single,
fairly complete set of documentation. (Add ri, and it’s even better –
self documenting to an extent). A small, over-simple API takes hours of
perusing messageboards for the solution to something that should have
been included. I do this with PHP regularly still, after years of using
it. My friend who develops in Filemaker on the mac, with it’s /tiny/
and extremely limited API spends most of his time inventing hacks to
make things do what he wants.

Simple is good. Complete is better. Low-stress is the best.

See also:

The Rise of ``Worse is Better''

_why

···

Volkmann, Mark (Mark.Volkmann@AGEDWARDS.com) wrote:

I was following along, agreeing with the presentation, until he said
“Simplicity is NOT a Goal”.

Hi,

I was following along, agreeing with the presentation, until he said “Simplicity is NOT a Goal”.

It’s OK. You have freedom to choose. But don’t you agree with
Aredridel in [ruby-talk:75779]? He (or she, maybe) stated much better
than me. I like the following statements.

Simple is good. Complete is better. Low-stress is the best.

Assembler is a simple language. But I don’t want to code with it.

						matz.
···

In message “Re: OSCON report” on 03/07/11, “Volkmann, Mark” Mark.Volkmann@AGEDWARDS.com writes:

On a related note, Are you familiar with the Sapir-Worf Hypothesis?

– Matt

···

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003, Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

It’s OK. You have freedom to choose. But don’t you agree with
Aredridel in [ruby-talk:75779]? He (or she, maybe) stated much better
than me. I like the following statements.


From my heart and from my hand, why don’t people understand my intention?

Hi,

···

In message “Re: OSCON report” on 03/07/12, Matt Lawrence matt@technoronin.com writes:

On a related note, Are you familiar with the Sapir-Worf Hypothesis?

David McCorkhil told me yesterday at the Japanese restaurant.
I disagree with Worf, but very interesting concept.

						matz.

May I ask what the Sapir-Worf Hypothesis is?

Guillaume.

···

On Fri, 2003-07-11 at 15:11, Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

Hi,

In message “Re: OSCON report” > on 03/07/12, Matt Lawrence matt@technoronin.com writes:

On a related note, Are you familiar with the Sapir-Worf Hypothesis?

David McCorkhil told me yesterday at the Japanese restaurant.
I disagree with Worf, but very interesting concept.

  					matz.

I’ve been thinking about the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis as relates to
programming languages for quite some time. I think that the weak
version of the hypothesis holds true:

Language influences the way we think, and influences what we
think of.

I find myself thinking quite differently after learning Ruby, after
learning perl, and mostly after learning PHP. Not all were good
changes, either.

PHP made me think of scripting languages as small wrappers around C
constructs. It encourages poor memory use, as it is designed for
finite-life scripts. It’s references worked so poorly that nearly the
entire library operates on a pass-by-value scheme, and hence, so does
user code that emulates the style of the library. Even the OO code
tends to be procedural, not polymorphic, and very oriented to
pass-by-value.

Perl made me think in terms of making problems easy to solve: If the
algorithm is too hard, change the input first.

Ruby is still changing how I think. This is my first foray into true OO
programming, and while I’ve read lots of theory, this is the first I’ve
come to practical experience.

Is the hypothesis true? I have no idea. I surmise that is is
unprovable, but that does not make it any less useful than Newton’s
physics equations, which are provably false.

Ari

···

On Fri, 2003-07-11 at 13:11, Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

Hi,

In message “Re: OSCON report” > on 03/07/12, Matt Lawrence matt@technoronin.com writes:

On a related note, Are you familiar with the Sapir-Worf Hypothesis?

David McCorkhil told me yesterday at the Japanese restaurant.
I disagree with Worf, but very interesting concept.

It’s Whorf with an H. Not the Klingon guy. :slight_smile:

Edward Sapir was a linguist; Benjamin Whorf is
often remembered as a linguist, though he was
mostly an amateur or dilettante. Degrees in
chemical engineering, IIRC.

I found his ideas very interesting even when
they were not necessarily correct. For example,
he claimed that the “tenseless” Hopi language
was far superior to English for talking about
relativity and quantum mechanics.

I’m not sure of the exact formulation of the
hypothesis. My favorite quote of Whorf’s is:
“Language shapes the way we think, and determines
what we can think about.”

I’m sure it’s more formalized elsewhere. As stated
here, it’s too vague to disprove (almost too vague
to agree or disagree with).

Hal

···

----- Original Message -----
From: “Guillaume Marcais” guslist@free.fr
To: “ruby-talk ML” ruby-talk@ruby-lang.org
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: OSCON report

May I ask what the Sapir-Worf Hypothesis is?


Hal Fulton
hal9000@hypermetrics.com

Guillaume.

On Fri, 2003-07-11 at 15:11, Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

Hi,

In message “Re: OSCON report” > > on 03/07/12, Matt Lawrence matt@technoronin.com writes:

On a related note, Are you familiar with the Sapir-Worf Hypothesis?

David McCorkhil told me yesterday at the Japanese restaurant.
I disagree with Worf, but very interesting concept.

matz.

May I ask what the Sapir-Worf Hypothesis is?

···

----- Original Message -----
From: “Guillaume Marcais” guslist@free.fr
To: “ruby-talk ML” ruby-talk@ruby-lang.org
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: OSCON report

Guillaume.

On Fri, 2003-07-11 at 15:11, Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

Hi,

In message “Re: OSCON report” > > on 03/07/12, Matt Lawrence matt@technoronin.com writes:

On a related note, Are you familiar with the Sapir-Worf Hypothesis?

David McCorkhil told me yesterday at the Japanese restaurant.
I disagree with Worf, but very interesting concept.

matz.

Aredridel wrote:

I’ve been thinking about the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis as relates to
programming languages for quite some time. I think that the weak
version of the hypothesis holds true:

Language influences the way we think, and influences what we
think of.

In reality, I think languages and their speakers influence each other in
a feedback loop. Since I’m not a linguist, I won’t venture to trace the
evolution of Japanese honorifics, or the loss of Germanic verb forms in
English … I’ll just throw them out there as potential examples.

I find myself thinking quite differently after learning Ruby, after
learning perl, and mostly after learning PHP. Not all were good
changes, either.

[…]

Ruby is still changing how I think. This is my first foray into true OO
programming, and while I’ve read lots of theory, this is the first I’ve
come to practical experience.

Objective-C was my first foray into object-oriented languages, and it
took a couple of years before it truly sank in. My preliminary forays
into Ruby, however, have opened up extra options for programming:

BLOCKS

I never used Smalltalk, and only used Lisp briefly, so I never
understood the full impact of passing chunks of code to methods. Yes,
you can iterate over data structures, but a Python-style |for … in
…| can do the same, but now

File.open(filename) do |file|
    # do stuff
end

seems like a far better way to handle file access than the old-school

begin
    file = File.new(filename)
    #do stuff
ensure
    file.close
end

REGULAR EXPRESSIONS

I could never wrap my head around Perl, so I never realized how useful
ubiquitous regular expressions could be until Ruby. It even allows
RegExps in case statements, which makes parsing a line-by-line
mini-language almost trivial. By contrast, C, Python and Java provide
regexes using library calls, not expressions, which becomes cumbersome
quickly.

ACCESSORS

Ruby takes Eiffel’s Principle of Uniform Reference (no syntatic
difference between field access and method invocation), and adds a
built-in pattern for mutators that resembles setting a field.
Furthermore, the Object class adds a method to generate default
implementations from a simple method call. This is a huge time-saver.

Writing accessors in Java is a pain, and Python requires either accessor
routines a la Java or meta-object interception of field access to insert
additional behavior. (I even had a brief e-mail conversation on this
with Guido van Rossum, who didn’t see the point of Ruby’s abilities for
Python.)

Maybe accessors should be far less common – see
http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/ppllc/papers/1998_05.html – but
either way why type out six lines of code when two words will do?

Anyway, sorry to go on so long.

Is the hypothesis true? I have no idea. I surmise that is is
unprovable, but that does not make it any less useful than Newton’s
physics equations, which are provably false.

Technically, Newtonian mechanics is incomplete, in that it only covers
non-relativistic velocities, behavior of large masses close together, or
other cosmic events. F=ma works just fine for most terrestrial
purposes.

···


Frank Mitchell (frankm each bayarea period net)

Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See We Can Put an End to Word Attachments - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation

From: “Guillaume Marcais” guslist@free.fr
To: “ruby-talk ML” ruby-talk@ruby-lang.org
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: OSCON report

May I ask what the Sapir-Worf Hypothesis is?

Linguistic relativity - Wikipedia

Another interesting pease of information on the subject:
http://www.alamut.com/subj/artiface/language/sapirWhorf.html

···

----- Original Message -----
From: “Gennady” gfb@tonesoft.com
To: “ruby-talk ML” ruby-talk@ruby-lang.org
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: OSCON report

----- Original Message -----

Guillaume.

On Fri, 2003-07-11 at 15:11, Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

Hi,

In message “Re: OSCON report” > > > on 03/07/12, Matt Lawrence matt@technoronin.com writes:

On a related note, Are you familiar with the Sapir-Worf Hypothesis?

David McCorkhil told me yesterday at the Japanese restaurant.
I disagree with Worf, but very interesting concept.

matz.

I found his ideas very interesting even when
they were not necessarily correct. For example,
he claimed that the “tenseless” Hopi language
was far superior to English for talking about
relativity and quantum mechanics.

In French, there is no direct translation to ‘cheap’, you have to say
‘not expensive’. I guess it is a difficult concept for us :slight_smile:

Guillaume.

···

On Fri, 2003-07-11 at 17:12, Hal E. Fulton wrote:

I’m not sure of the exact formulation of the
hypothesis. My favorite quote of Whorf’s is:
“Language shapes the way we think, and determines
what we can think about.”

I’m sure it’s more formalized elsewhere. As stated
here, it’s too vague to disprove (almost too vague
to agree or disagree with).

Hal


Hal Fulton
hal9000@hypermetrics.com

Guillaume.

On Fri, 2003-07-11 at 15:11, Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

Hi,

In message “Re: OSCON report” > > > on 03/07/12, Matt Lawrence matt@technoronin.com writes:

On a related note, Are you familiar with the Sapir-Worf Hypothesis?

David McCorkhil told me yesterday at the Japanese restaurant.
I disagree with Worf, but very interesting concept.

matz.

Hi,

···

In message “Re: OSCON report” on 03/07/12, “Hal E. Fulton” hal9000@hypermetrics.com writes:

I’m not sure of the exact formulation of the
hypothesis. My favorite quote of Whorf’s is:
“Language shapes the way we think, and determines
what we can think about.”

Hmm, I had misunderstood the hypothesis. After reading pages which
have been mentioned in the list, now I agree with this hypothesis.

I admit I didn’t know Sapir-Whorf hypothesis before the talk. I was
ignorant (as usual). I re-invented the wheel (as usual) from the
vague memory of Babel-17.

						matz.

I'm not sure of the exact formulation of the
hypothesis. My favorite quote of Whorf's is:
"Language shapes the way we think, and determines
what we can think about."

Can it be possible that he has stolen this simply
from Noam Chomsky. I think he was the first one who
examined the Hopi language that in a real scientific way.

Of course for most of the US witch hunters his political
opinions are unacceptable and so his excellent linguistic
studies aren't mentioned very often in public
(at least in the USA).

Interesting. Reminds me of the language that they speek in the Wells’
novel 1984, where they remove all words about freedom and personal
thinking, so people wouldn’t even think about it.

Guillaume.

···

On Fri, 2003-07-11 at 17:17, Gennady wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: “Gennady” gfb@tonesoft.com
To: “ruby-talk ML” ruby-talk@ruby-lang.org
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: OSCON report

----- Original Message -----
From: “Guillaume Marcais” guslist@free.fr
To: “ruby-talk ML” ruby-talk@ruby-lang.org
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: OSCON report

May I ask what the Sapir-Worf Hypothesis is?

Linguistic relativity - Wikipedia

Another interesting pease of information on the subject:
Lojban and the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis

Guillaume.

On Fri, 2003-07-11 at 15:11, Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote:

Hi,

In message “Re: OSCON report” > > > > on 03/07/12, Matt Lawrence matt@technoronin.com writes:

On a related note, Are you familiar with the Sapir-Worf Hypothesis?

David McCorkhil told me yesterday at the Japanese restaurant.
I disagree with Worf, but very interesting concept.

matz.

Lothar Scholz wrote:

Can it be possible that he has stolen this simply
from Noam Chomsky. I think he was the first one who
examined the Hopi language that in a real scientific way.

Ummmmm, no. What a stupid question. Sapir and Whorf were publishing
their work well before Chomsky was even born. =)

Of course for most of the US witch hunters his political
opinions are unacceptable and so his excellent linguistic
studies aren’t mentioned very often in public
(at least in the USA).

Again, no. His academic works are widely studied and discussed in
academia. I can’t even begin to recall how many university classes I
had where we studied and discussed his work.

Why is it I always lurk during on-topic threads, and open my mouth in
the off-topic ones? ;^) Anyways, back to Ruby it is for me…

-Kent

Salut!

  • Guillaume Marcais; 2003-07-11, 23:44 UTC:

In French, there is no direct translation to ‘cheap’, you have to say
‘not expensive’. I guess it is a difficult concept for us :slight_smile:

For me it actually is a bit difficult:

Pourquoi est-ce qu’on ne dit pas ‘quelque chose est bon marché’ mais
pas ‘quelque chose n’est pas cher’?

‘pas cher’ is the mentioned ‘not expensive’ while ‘bon marché’
roughly means ‘being a good buy’.

A bientôt,

Josef ‘Jupp’ Schugt

···


N’attribuez jamais à la malice ce que l’incompétence explique !
– Napoléon

Interesting. Reminds me of the language that they speek in the Wells'
novel 1984, where they remove all words about freedom and personal

It's of course from George Orwell. Only a british could write so well
about a "big brother" society.