# \[Devculture\] ruby question - try Python also (fwd) **URL:** \ **Category:** ruby-talk\ **Created:** [7 August 2003 03:10 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/devculture-ruby-question-try-python-also-fwd/7265 "2003-08-07T03:10:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pat\_Eyler1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@Pat\_Eyler1](https://rubytalk.org/u/Pat_Eyler1)\ **Post date:** [7 August 2003 03:10 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/devculture-ruby-question-try-python-also-fwd/7265/1 "2003-08-07T03:10:35Z")
hmmm, this doesn’t mesh terribly well with my experience. Anyone else car to take a crack at answering it? -pate > **···** > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 22:07:21 -0400 > From: Anil R. Diwan [adiwan@snet.net](mailto:adiwan@snet.net) > Reply-To: [devculture@lists.whirlycott.com](mailto:devculture@lists.whirlycott.com) > To: [devculture@lists.whirlycott.com](mailto:devculture@lists.whirlycott.com) > Subject: Re: [Devculture] ruby question - try Python also > > I looked at Ruby with great interest. I was dismayed by the insufficient > development in Ruby and poor support for many good things it has. > For Web development, the best project going on in Ruby is a replacement of > the JSP/ASP like architecture of web pages with an architecture which > cleanly separates the HTML page portion and the Ruby class that fills it in. > The ideas they have used are really clever. They claim they took inspiration > from Webobjects. However, I did not see any further development in that > project (last year). Then I saw Ruby trying to copy JSPs!!! > CONS of RUBY: > Ruby allows you to use MANY different coding syntaxes - It supports PERL > like syntax as also Python like syntax among others. This WILL make the Ruby > code archaic and uncommunicable across large teams when the teams are > brought together by hiring consultants as they generally are. > The syntax issues and support for mechanics of both PERL like and Python > like stuff makes programming more interesting to people who like to write > compact code undecipherable to others (read - job security as a PRO item > here). > > My current favorite, after looking at a large number of languages is Python > or Jython, depending upon whether you want access to Java are you are happy > with the available C code base. Jyhton in particular sits as a > interpreter/compiler on top of the JVM. You write Python code in Jython, run > it like a script, and then you can even ask Jython to produce Java Source > code from what you wrote! All Java classes can be called from the Python > side. And you write compact code in the beautiful python language. > > Python has excellent syntax (Ruby derived its syntax pretty much fully from > Python, and added the Perlish stuff). It is a TRUE Object-oriented language > offering first class objects like in SmallTalk or Haskell, that can modify > behavior by runtime binding with a type or class, and inheriting at run > time. Despite its roots as a scripting language, it actually is an > object-oriented language, unlike Java and C++. [Java and C++ are Class > oriented languages, as opposed to Object oriented languages]. > Coding in Python is compact, and Python provides a lot of facilities. Also > because of Jython, its acceptance will rise (I hope). Jython is also an easy > way to write Java code. > > I have not coded in either Ruby or Python, so all comments are based on > reading and learning the language. > > Sincerely, > > - anil r. diwan > [adiwan@snet.net](mailto:adiwan@snet.net) > Cell: (203) 606-9180 > > * * * > > Anil R. Diwan, Ph.D. > Chief Technology Officer > > ## AllExcel, Inc. 135 Wood St., Ste.200 West Haven, CT 06516. Tel&Fax: (203) 937-6137. > > ## The contents of this e-mail are privileged and confidential and intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above or their designee. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that the dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication by mistake, please notify by replying to this e-mail and delete the message. Thank You. > > From: WHIRLYCOTT [phil@whirlycott.com](mailto:phil@whirlycott.com) > Reply-To: [devculture@lists.whirlycott.com](mailto:devculture@lists.whirlycott.com) > Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:42:39 -0400 > To: [devculture@lists.whirlycott.com](mailto:devculture@lists.whirlycott.com) > Subject: [Devculture] ruby question > > I was just going to send this email to my friend Pat Eyler directly, > but I remembered that he’s on this list and that others here may be > interested in this… maybe 😉 > > Anyway, my question is about Ruby. I’m wondering what it would offer > me, since I do most of my work in weblike environments and use all > sorts of funny stuff. I’ve compiled a laundry list and I’m wondering > if Pat knows about the answers to any of this… while I’m digging some > of this up myself. > > Does Ruby have…? / How strong is ruby in the area of…? > > - SOAP support > - XML support > - inline web page building like asp/php/jsp > - database access > - application server type features for data caching, database > connection pooling, session management ala j2ee/mod\_perl/php > > Just wondering what Pat may have run into during the course of his > travels… if others have experiences with Ruby as well, I’d like to > hear about them. > > phil. > > – > Whirlycott > Philip Jacob > [phil@whirlycott.com](mailto:phil@whirlycott.com) > [http://www.whirlycott.com/phil/](http://www.whirlycott.com/phil/) > > * * * > > devculture mailing list > [devculture@lists.whirlycott.com](mailto:devculture@lists.whirlycott.com) > [http://lists.whirlycott.com/mailman/listinfo/devculture](http://lists.whirlycott.com/mailman/listinfo/devculture) ---
**Author:** ![Gavin\_Sinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/db5fbb/32.png) [@Gavin\_Sinclair](https://rubytalk.org/u/Gavin_Sinclair)\ **Post date:** [7 August 2003 05:14 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/devculture-ruby-question-try-python-also-fwd/7265/2 "2003-08-07T05:14:35Z")
You answered it well. It doesn’t mesh well with your experience. The opinions below disclaim any experience. QED. Despite the disclaimer, some of the claims are a bit grand, demonstrating a very poor understanding of Ruby’s heritage. It’s pretty common that if someone only understands language X, they will only see the aspects of Ruby that resonate with language X. It takes an open mind and some experience to overcome this natural human limitation. At the end of the day, the notion that Ruby encourages archaic and uncommunicable code is perverse. For the WebObjects-like framework, I assume he is referring to CGIKit, a fine package, to be sure, but a bit beyond my understanding at the moment. It is actively developed, but not, to my knowledge, actively discussed, which is a shame. If there were a few useful, public webapps written in Ruby using this and other frameworks, with source code published and documented, I’d die a happy man… Gavin > **···** > > > hmmm, this doesn’t mesh terribly well with my experience. Anyone else > > care to take a crack at answering it? > > > > -pate > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 22:07:21 -0400 > > From: Anil R. Diwan [adiwan@snet.net](mailto:adiwan@snet.net) > > Reply-To: [devculture@lists.whirlycott.com](mailto:devculture@lists.whirlycott.com) > > To: [devculture@lists.whirlycott.com](mailto:devculture@lists.whirlycott.com) > > Subject: Re: [Devculture] ruby question - try Python also > > > > I looked at Ruby with great interest. I was dismayed by the insufficient > > development in Ruby and poor support for many good things it has. > > For Web development, the best project going on in Ruby is a replacement > > of the JSP/ASP like architecture of web pages with an architecture which > > cleanly separates the HTML page portion and the Ruby class that fills it > > in. The ideas they have used are really clever. They claim they took > > inspiration from Webobjects. However, I did not see any further > > development in that project (last year). Then I saw Ruby trying to copy > > JSPs!!! > > CONS of RUBY: > > Ruby allows you to use MANY different coding syntaxes - It supports PERL > > like syntax as also Python like syntax among others. This WILL make the > > Ruby code archaic and uncommunicable across large teams when the teams > > are brought together by hiring consultants as they generally are. > > The syntax issues and support for mechanics of both PERL like and Python > > like stuff makes programming more interesting to people who like to > > write compact code undecipherable to others (read - job security as a > > PRO item here). > > > > My current favorite, after looking at a large number of languages is > > Python or Jython, depending upon whether you want access to Java are you > > are happy with the available C code base. Jyhton in particular sits as a > > interpreter/compiler on top of the JVM. You write Python code in Jython, > > run it like a script, and then you can even ask Jython to produce Java > > Source code from what you wrote! All Java classes can be called from the > > Python side. And you write compact code in the beautiful python > > language. > > > > Python has excellent syntax (Ruby derived its syntax pretty much fully > > from Python, and added the Perlish stuff). It is a TRUE Object-oriented > > language offering first class objects like in SmallTalk or Haskell, that > > can modify behavior by runtime binding with a type or class, and > > inheriting at run time. Despite its roots as a scripting language, it > > actually is an object-oriented language, unlike Java and C++. [Java and > > C++ are Class oriented languages, as opposed to Object oriented > > languages]. > > Coding in Python is compact, and Python provides a lot of facilities. > > Also because of Jython, its acceptance will rise (I hope). Jython is > > also an easy way to write Java code. > > > > I have not coded in either Ruby or Python, so all comments are based on > > reading and learning the language. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > - anil r. diwan > > [adiwan@snet.net](mailto:adiwan@snet.net) > > Cell: (203) 606-9180 > > > > * * * > > > > Anil R. Diwan, Ph.D. > > Chief Technology Officer > > > > ## AllExcel, Inc. 135 Wood St., Ste.200 West Haven, CT 06516. Tel&Fax: (203) 937-6137. > > > > ## The contents of this e-mail are privileged and confidential and intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above or their designee. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that the dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is prohibited. If you received this communication by mistake, please notify by replying to this e-mail and delete the message. Thank You. > > > > From: WHIRLYCOTT [phil@whirlycott.com](mailto:phil@whirlycott.com) > > Reply-To: [devculture@lists.whirlycott.com](mailto:devculture@lists.whirlycott.com) > > Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:42:39 -0400 > > To: [devculture@lists.whirlycott.com](mailto:devculture@lists.whirlycott.com) > > Subject: [Devculture] ruby question > > > > I was just going to send this email to my friend Pat Eyler directly, but > > I remembered that he’s on this list and that others here may be > > interested in this… maybe 😉 > > > > Anyway, my question is about Ruby. I’m wondering what it would offer > > me, since I do most of my work in weblike environments and use all sorts > > of funny stuff. I’ve compiled a laundry list and I’m wondering if Pat > > knows about the answers to any of this… while I’m digging some of this > > up myself. > > > > Does Ruby have…? / How strong is ruby in the area of…? > > > > - SOAP support > > - XML support > > - inline web page building like asp/php/jsp > > - database access > > - application server type features for data caching, database > > connection pooling, session management ala j2ee/mod\_perl/php > > > > Just wondering what Pat may have run into during the course of his > > travels… if others have experiences with Ruby as well, I’d like to > > hear about them. > > > > phil. > > > > – > > Whirlycott > > Philip Jacob > > [phil@whirlycott.com](mailto:phil@whirlycott.com) > > [Philip Jacob](http://www.whirlycott.com/phil/) > > > > * * * > > > > devculture mailing list > > [devculture@lists.whirlycott.com](mailto:devculture@lists.whirlycott.com) > > [http://lists.whirlycott.com/mailman/listinfo/devculture](http://lists.whirlycott.com/mailman/listinfo/devculture) ---
**Author:** ![Rasputin1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/439d5e/32.png) [@Rasputin1](https://rubytalk.org/u/Rasputin1)\ **Post date:** [7 August 2003 09:26 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/devculture-ruby-question-try-python-also-fwd/7265/3 "2003-08-07T09:26:38Z")
- Pat Eyler [pate@eylerfamily.org](mailto:pate@eylerfamily.org) [0811 04:11]: > hmmm, this doesn’t mesh terribly well with my experience. Anyone else car > to take a crack at answering it? > Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 22:07:21 -0400 > From: Anil R. Diwan [adiwan@snet.net](mailto:adiwan@snet.net) > Reply-To: [devculture@lists.whirlycott.com](mailto:devculture@lists.whirlycott.com) > To: [devculture@lists.whirlycott.com](mailto:devculture@lists.whirlycott.com) > Subject: Re: [Devculture] ruby question - try Python also \ > I have not coded in either Ruby or Python, so all comments are based on > reading and learning the language. How can you learn (‘the language’ - he doesn’t specify which)a without writing some programs in it? My response would probably be ‘shut up, troll’. 🙂 > **···** > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > – > You will lose your present job and have to become a door to door > mayonnaise salesman. > Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns ---
**Author:** ![Eric\_Hodel1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9adbd/32.png) [@Eric\_Hodel1](https://rubytalk.org/u/Eric_Hodel1)\ **Post date:** [7 August 2003 16:05 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/devculture-ruby-question-try-python-also-fwd/7265/4 "2003-08-07T16:05:14Z")
Try Webplayer[1] based on Borges[2]. While Borges isn’t yet fully, or completely documented (I still don’t fully understand it), Webplayer is reasonably well documented, and should be simple enough to understand in no more than a few minutes reading. If not, I’ll be happy to expand documentation on any rough spots. [1] [http://segment7.net/ruby-code/webplayer/webplayer.html](http://segment7.net/ruby-code/webplayer/webplayer.html) [2] [http://segment7.net/ruby-code/borges/borges.html](http://segment7.net/ruby-code/borges/borges.html) > **···** > > Gavin Sinclair (gsinclair@soyabean.com.au) wrote: > > > If there were a few useful, public webapps written in Ruby using this and > > other frameworks, with source code published and documented, I’d die a > > happy man… > > – > Eric Hodel - [drbrain@segment7.net](mailto:drbrain@segment7.net) - [http://segment7.net](http://segment7.net) > All messages signed with fingerprint: > FEC2 57F1 D465 EB15 5D6E 7C11 332A 551C 796C 9F04 ---
**Author:** ![Charles\_D\_Hixson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e495f1/32.png) [@Charles\_D\_Hixson](https://rubytalk.org/u/Charles_D_Hixson)\ **Post date:** [11 August 2003 21:39 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/devculture-ruby-question-try-python-also-fwd/7265/5 "2003-08-11T21:39:57Z")
Rasputin wrote: > - Pat Eyler [pate@eylerfamily.org](mailto:pate@eylerfamily.org) [0811 04:11]: > > > hmmm, this doesn’t mesh terribly well with my experience. Anyone else car > > to take a crack at answering it? > > > Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 22:07:21 -0400 > > From: Anil R. Diwan [adiwan@snet.net](mailto:adiwan@snet.net) > > Reply-To: [devculture@lists.whirlycott.com](mailto:devculture@lists.whirlycott.com)… > > > > …I have not coded in either Ruby or Python, so all comments are based on > > reading and learning the language. > > How can you learn (‘the language’ - he doesn’t specify which)a without > writing some programs in it?.. Well, I have “some” familiarity with Ruby and Python. Don’t brush off his comments lightly if you want Ruby to be more popular. The only way for Ruby to be more popular is for more people to use it. Which means for more peopel who are currently unfamiliar with it to use it. Ruby has by far the best syntax of any language that I’ve encountered, and for many purposes it’s semantics are as good as any. And it _MAY_ have good library support. But many libraries seem to be either abandoned or only documented in Japanese (well, only _adequately_ etc.). This is, perhaps, quite understandable given the history, but if I intend to do something, and I must choose between Ruby and Python, it will frequently resolve down to “Which language can I most easily figure out how to do things in”, and libraries can here be the determining feature. I far prefer Ruby (I have this strong distaste for using white space as a program structure indicator, and I prefer that my indentation be done with tabs of width 3 rather than with spaces . I know that using tabs this way doesn’t really cause Python problems, but many people on the mailing list don’t seem to.) But, e.g., if I want to use SDL, I can use apt-get to import all needed libraries for Python, but Ruby… I was still working on getting all the pieces straight after four hours. (I told you I wasn’t highly skilled.) Then turn to the documentation. Pygame doesn’t have quite everything documented. The english documentation of the RubySDL package nearly left me with the C documentation of SDL (which I don’t know…I’ d prefer to use a higher level language and then only optimize the parts that need it). And Rudl doesn’t seem any better. (I think that Rubysdl is the appropriate library. ) There are probably better ways to approach this, but I’m new, so I don’t know them. And the correct (or at any rate, reasonable) approaches are easier to find in Python. A lot of this is probably because Ruby is more recent, and because the primary focus of development is in Japan. But the result is the same whatever the reason. Another thing is this wonderfully promissing thing called Pyrex. This is a purportedly nearly transparent interface between Python and C. It looks like it makes interfacing so much easier than Swig [or hand coding] that no comparison is reasonable. I haven’t yet tried it, so this may be overblown, but appearantly you can write a file [or routine??] that is a mix of Python and C, with automatic translation between the pieces. Another thing is distributable executables. Very important for many purposes (though I haven’t needed this recently). Python has a (somewhat clunky) way to do this called distutils. What does Ruby have? (I mean by this that if Ruby has a library that can handle this, then I don’t know about it…It’s not a serious question as I don’t have any need right now.) Now it is true that the Python distributable executables seem to be exe files, so they may only work on MSWindows, but to many people that is the vitally important place to have it work. Now these are just some lacunae that I have noticed. But that I have noticed these seems to me to imply that there are many other areas that would have similar gaps, because I _don’t_ have a large acquantance with Ruby. Nowhere near what I was hoping to have a year ago. Because I couldn’t figure out how to use in in the projects that I was working on in the time that was available. AND NONE OF THESE PROBLEMS IS INTRINSIC! These are all library issues. (I didn’t mention the many areas where I didn’t have any problem. That’s not the problem.) > **···** > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- ---
**Author:** ![MikkelFJ1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@MikkelFJ1](https://rubytalk.org/u/MikkelFJ1)\ **Post date:** [11 August 2003 23:00 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/devculture-ruby-question-try-python-also-fwd/7265/6 "2003-08-11T23:00:12Z")
“Charles Hixsn” [charleshixsn@earthlink.net](mailto:charleshixsn@earthlink.net) wrote in message [news:3F380D28.1040002@earthlink.net](mailto:news:3F380D28.1040002@earthlink.net)… > and I prefer that my > indentation be done with tabs of width 3 rather than with spaces . A religous concept, but spaces are IMHO best when source is shared between multiple developers. > Another thing is this wonderfully promissing thing called Pyrex. This > is a purportedly nearly transparent interface between Python and C. It > looks like it makes interfacing so much easier than Swig [or hand > coding] that no comparison is reasonable. I haven’t yet tried it, so > this may be overblown, but appearantly you can write a file [or > routine??] that is a mix of Python and C, with automatic translation > between the pieces. How about Ruby inline? [http://www.ruby-talk.org/blade/50763](http://www.ruby-talk.org/blade/50763) Mikkel ---
**Author:** ![Austin\_Ziegler2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@Austin\_Ziegler2](https://rubytalk.org/u/Austin_Ziegler2)\ **Post date:** [12 August 2003 16:00 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/devculture-ruby-question-try-python-also-fwd/7265/7 "2003-08-12T16:00:30Z")
> Well, I have “some” familiarity with Ruby and Python. Don’t brush off > his comments lightly if you want Ruby to be more popular. The only way > for Ruby to be more popular is for more people to use it. Which means > for more peopel who are currently unfamiliar with it to use it. Actually, based on the comments by Anil, I would dismiss them almost entirely out of hand. “Insufficient development” is – as we on this list know – utter crap. Just because the Ruby community doesn’t generally “karma whore” the way that the Perl and Python community does at /. doesn’t mean that there’s slow or “insufficient” development. I mean, the claim that the “best” web project is a WebObject/JSP/ASP “replacement” doesn’t recognise that there are dozens of approaches to web development and doesn’t recognise any of the outstanding projects out there (Amrita, Webrick, the various wikis and blogs, Borges, etc.). Further, the claim that Ruby took its syntax from Python and then added Perlisms is utterly ludicrous. I personally find Ruby syntax _nothing_ like Python syntax, the latter being far less clear. It also suggests that the writer has little experience with any OO language. His suggestion that Ruby allows more obfuscated code is contrary to every experience that every person who has actually done _any_ development in Ruby. Not only that, he ignores the (behind-the-times, but extant) JRuby in favour of his Python/Jython preference. No, the author of this rant doesn’t know anything about Ruby and it shows in spades. In answer to Phil’s friend’s questions directly: > Does Ruby have…? / How strong is ruby in the area of…? > > - SOAP support SOAP4R. It’s apparently as complete as most other SOAP implementations, but as I don’t (yet) do SOAP, I can’t answer beyond that. > - XML support IMO, I didn’t “get” XML development until I started playing with REXML, which speaks very highly of Sean’s concepts. > - inline web page building like asp/php/jsp Amrita, Eruby, various others. > - database access Reasonably complete. > - application server type features for data caching, database connection > pooling, session management ala j2ee/mod\_perl/php Various projects available. > Ruby has by far the best syntax of any language that I’ve encountered, > and for many purposes it’s semantics are as good as any. And it _MAY_ > have good library support. But many libraries seem to be either > abandoned or only documented in Japanese (well, only _adequately_ etc.). Some libraries may also be “complete.” [snip SDL stuff: I don’t know SDL] > Another thing is this wonderfully promissing thing called Pyrex. This is > a purportedly nearly transparent interface between Python and C. It > looks like it makes interfacing so much easier than Swig [or hand coding] > that no comparison is reasonable. I haven’t yet tried it, so this may be > overblown, but appearantly you can write a file [or routine??] that is a > mix of Python and C, with automatic translation between the pieces. Beyond RubyInline, I think that something like Pyrex is needed in Python because the C interface is nearly as ugly as that with Perl – or so I’m told. Ruby has a very clean C interface, so such projects are less necessary. > Another thing is distributable executables. Very important for many > purposes (though I haven’t needed this recently). Python has a (somewhat > clunky) way to do this called distutils. What does Ruby have? (I mean > by this that if Ruby has a library that can handle this, then I don’t > know about it…It’s not a serious question as I don’t have any need > right now.) Now it is true that the Python distributable executables > seem to be exe files, so they may only work on MSWindows, but to many > people that is the vitally important place to have it work. Look into Exerb for Windows. There’s even a GUI for it now. -austin > **···** > > ## On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 06:39:57 +0900, Charles Hixsn wrote: > > austin ziegler \* austin@halostatue.ca \* Toronto, ON, Canada > software designer \* pragmatic programmer \* 2003.08.12 > \* 11.40.12 ---
**Author:** ![Albert2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@Albert2](https://rubytalk.org/u/Albert2)\ **Post date:** [11 August 2003 23:40 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/devculture-ruby-question-try-python-also-fwd/7265/8 "2003-08-11T23:40:29Z")
Just curious why you would think that. A tab can be be equivalent to any number of spaces, per the reader’s preference. Spaces force the reader to accept your idea of proper indentation. > **···** > > On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:00:12 +0900 “MikkelFJ” [mikkelfj-anti-spam@bigfoot.com](mailto:mikkelfj-anti-spam@bigfoot.com) wrote: > > > “Charles Hixsn” [charleshixsn@earthlink.net](mailto:charleshixsn@earthlink.net) wrote in message > > [news:3F380D28.1040002@earthlink.net](mailto:news:3F380D28.1040002@earthlink.net)… > > > > > and I prefer that my > > > indentation be done with tabs of width 3 rather than with spaces . > > > > A religous concept, but spaces are IMHO best when source is shared between > > multiple developers. ---
**Author:** ![Charles\_D\_Hixson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e495f1/32.png) [@Charles\_D\_Hixson](https://rubytalk.org/u/Charles_D_Hixson)\ **Post date:** [13 August 2003 02:33 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/devculture-ruby-question-try-python-also-fwd/7265/9 "2003-08-13T02:33:12Z")
Austin Ziegler wrote: > > Well, I have “some” familiarity with Ruby and Python. Don’t brush off > > his comments lightly if you want Ruby to be more popular. The only way > > for Ruby to be more popular is for more people to use it. Which means > > for more peopel who are currently unfamiliar with it to use it. > > Actually, based on the comments by Anil, I would dismiss them almost > entirely out of hand. “Insufficient development” is – as we on this list > know – utter crap. Just because the Ruby community doesn’t generally “karma > whore” the way that the Perl and Python community does at /. doesn’t mean > that there’s slow or “insufficient” development. I mean, the claim that the > “best” web project is a WebObject/JSP/ASP “replacement” doesn’t recognise > that there are dozens of approaches to web development and doesn’t recognise > any of the outstanding projects out there (Amrita, Webrick, the various > wikis and blogs, Borges, etc.). > > Further, the claim that Ruby took its syntax from Python and then added > Perlisms is utterly ludicrous. I personally find Ruby syntax _nothing_ like > Python syntax, the latter being far less clear. It also suggests that the > writer has little experience with any OO language. His suggestion that Ruby > allows more obfuscated code is contrary to every experience that every > person who has actually done _any_ development in Ruby. > > Not only that, he ignores the (behind-the-times, but extant) JRuby in favour > of his Python/Jython preference. No, the author of this rant doesn’t know > anything about Ruby and it shows in spades. > > In answer to Phil’s friend’s questions directly: > > > Does Ruby have…? / How strong is ruby in the area of…? > > > > - SOAP support > > SOAP4R. It’s apparently as complete as most other SOAP implementations, but > as I don’t (yet) do SOAP, I can’t answer beyond that. > > > - XML support > > IMO, I didn’t “get” XML development until I started playing with REXML, > which speaks very highly of Sean’s concepts. > > > - inline web page building like asp/php/jsp > > Amrita, Eruby, various others. > > > - database access > > Reasonably complete. > > > - application server type features for data caching, database connection > > pooling, session management ala j2ee/mod\_perl/php > > Various projects available. > > > Ruby has by far the best syntax of any language that I’ve encountered, > > and for many purposes it’s semantics are as good as any. And it _MAY_ > > have good library support. But many libraries seem to be either > > abandoned or only documented in Japanese (well, only _adequately_ etc.). > > Some libraries may also be “complete.” > > [snip SDL stuff: I don’t know SDL] > > > Another thing is this wonderfully promissing thing called Pyrex. This is > > a purportedly nearly transparent interface between Python and C. It > > looks like it makes interfacing so much easier than Swig [or hand coding] > > that no comparison is reasonable. I haven’t yet tried it, so this may be > > overblown, but appearantly you can write a file [or routine??] that is a > > mix of Python and C, with automatic translation between the pieces. > > Beyond RubyInline, I think that something like Pyrex is needed in Python > because the C interface is nearly as ugly as that with Perl – or so I’m > told. Ruby has a very clean C interface, so such projects are less > necessary. > > > Another thing is distributable executables. Very important for many > > purposes (though I haven’t needed this recently). Python has a (somewhat > > clunky) way to do this called distutils. What does Ruby have? (I mean > > by this that if Ruby has a library that can handle this, then I don’t > > know about it…It’s not a serious question as I don’t have any need > > right now.) Now it is true that the Python distributable executables > > seem to be exe files, so they may only work on MSWindows, but to many > > people that is the vitally important place to have it work. > > Look into Exerb for Windows. There’s even a GUI for it now. > > ## -austin > > austin ziegler \* austin@halostatue.ca \* Toronto, ON, Canada > software designer \* pragmatic programmer \* 2003.08.12 > \* 11.40.12 It sounds like the problems I had last time (about 8 months ago) may be largely resolved. (I know that some of the web pages that gave me grief have been redesigned…that’s promissing.) Also promissing is the documentation that I found for RubyGtk2/RubyGnome. It’s nearly what it needs to be, and is more than sufficient for many purposes. (Last time I checked the documentation for bit map handling wasn’t in, but that’s clearly not one of the things that one would work on earlier.) And just today on LinuxToday there was the announcement of a new release. I will need to look up RubyInline. Two references to it in answer to my not-really-a-question are a very strong pointer. I may not need it now, but knowing that it exists could allow me to consider Ruby for projects when it would otherwise be inconceivable. (Back after checking the references…) That looks very nice, but it doesn’t _LOOK_ to be in the same ballpark as Pyrex. Again, though, I haven’t tried, or yet had reason to try, either approach. Certainly the coding approach taken at [http://www.ruby-talk.org/blade/50763](http://www.ruby-talk.org/blade/50763) would be expected to slow things down most remarkably. One can nearly always expect the translation between a Ruby variable and a C variable to be the slow step of a process. (OTOH, that code was created to demonstrate a relative slowdown when certain things happened, so…) The project that I’m currently planning would require getting access to a byte-mapped representation of an XPM file, and I’m contemplating the correct approach. A JIT module that was generated with an #include for the xpm file would seem to be a quite reasonable approach, which wouldn’t have (i.e., didn’t) occurred to me. I may be coming back to this around a month from now. > **···** > > > On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 06:39:57 +0900, Charles Hixsn wrote: ---
**Author:** ![Eric\_Schwartz6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@Eric\_Schwartz6](https://rubytalk.org/u/Eric_Schwartz6)\ **Post date:** [12 August 2003 00:00 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/devculture-ruby-question-try-python-also-fwd/7265/10 "2003-08-12T00:00:32Z")
Albert Wagner [alwagner@tcac.net](mailto:alwagner@tcac.net) writes: > > A religous concept, but spaces are IMHO best when source is shared between > > multiple developers. > > Just curious why you would think that. A tab can be be equivalent > to any number of spaces, per the reader’s preference. Spaces force > the reader to accept your idea of proper indentation. Because tabs can vary widely, and indenting that looks reasonable on your system with tabs set to 3 spaces looks like crap on mine, where it’s set to 8. As you point out, tabs _can_ be set to display at any number of spaces, but if people don’t actually do that (and my experience is that most people don’t, but YMMV) then all the theory in the world won’t make ugly code non-ugly. Whereas if you use spaces, it looks the same in everybody’s editor, no matter what that might be. Unless they’re using proportional fonts of course, but that’s evil, and you shouldn’t accomodate evil. -=Eric P.S.: Please wrap your own lines (~72 characters is good); it’s hard to read when it wraps around at random places, depending on the width of my newsreader. > **···** > > > On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:00:12 +0900 \> “MikkelFJ” [mikkelfj-anti-spam@bigfoot.com](mailto:mikkelfj-anti-spam@bigfoot.com) wrote: > > – > > Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million > > typewriters, and Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare. > > – Blair Houghton. ---
**Author:** ![MikkelFJ1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@MikkelFJ1](https://rubytalk.org/u/MikkelFJ1)\ **Post date:** [12 August 2003 19:04 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/devculture-ruby-question-try-python-also-fwd/7265/11 "2003-08-12T19:04:38Z")
“Albert Wagner” [alwagner@tcac.net](mailto:alwagner@tcac.net) wrote in message [news:20030811184028.6a1197ee.alwagner@tcac.net](mailto:news:20030811184028.6a1197ee.alwagner@tcac.net)… > > A religous concept, but spaces are IMHO best when source is shared > > between > > multiple developers. > > Just curious why you would think that. A tab can be be equivalent to any > number of spaces, per the reader’s preference. Spaces force the reader to > accept your idea of proper indentation. Eric already answered the most important reason. If you want to reformat with spaces you can sometimes use autoformatting features of editors, or you can do a regular expression search replace /^\s\s/ to /^\s\s\s/ for example (or even to tabs if you like). So you don’t really loose anything by using space but up front spaces print nice in all editors. You can’t avoid the occasional space in indentation so tabs generally only work for one specific width. I tend to use either two or four spaces - in Ruby I tend to use only two spaces. Using three spaces makes it difficult to quickly add a new level between two other levels. And again this is also difficult if I had been using tabs. Typically have my editor set to autoexpand tabs to 4 spaces so I can either tab or hit space twice. Please don’t flame - as I said this is a religous issue - I have just augmented my view upon request. Mikkel ---
**Author:** ![Albert2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@Albert2](https://rubytalk.org/u/Albert2)\ **Post date:** [12 August 2003 00:53 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/devculture-ruby-question-try-python-also-fwd/7265/12 "2003-08-12T00:53:35Z")
\> P.S.: Please wrap your own lines (~72 characters is good); it's hard \> to read when it wraps around at random places, depending on the \> width of my newsreader. Sorry, I have been installing/swapping mail readers and didn’t notice. It should wrap at 72 now. > **···** > > On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:00:32 +0900 Eric Schwartz [emschwar@pobox.com](mailto:emschwar@pobox.com) wrote: ---
**Author:** ![Charles\_D\_Hixson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e495f1/32.png) [@Charles\_D\_Hixson](https://rubytalk.org/u/Charles_D_Hixson)\ **Post date:** [13 August 2003 02:08 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/devculture-ruby-question-try-python-also-fwd/7265/13 "2003-08-13T02:08:24Z")
MikkelFJ wrote: > … > > I tend to use either two or four spaces - in Ruby I tend to use only two > spaces. > Using three spaces makes it difficult to quickly add a new level between two > other levels. And again this is also difficult if I had been using tabs. > > Typically have my editor set to autoexpand tabs to 4 spaces so I can either > tab or hit space twice. > > Please don’t flame - as I said this is a religous issue - I have just > augmented my view upon request. > > Mikkel For me a three space wide tab makes the indentation v. obvious. I like that. I also like, if the nesting starts getting too deep, being able to alter the indentation by only changing one value (the amount to indent with each tab) in the editor preferences. Now I will grant you that one should try to avoid nesting things deeply enough to need to do that. But sometimes it happens to me. I generally refuse to use editors that convert tabs to spaces. The two aren’t equivalent, and sometimes, especially in strings, they are extremely distinct, and serve vastly different purposes. E.g., when I write a CSV file, I use tabs for separators, and have commas a legitimate internal character. (I also don’t use quotes around string valued fields. I find things easier to read and to parse that way.) But the point is, in Ruby I can do this without worrying that I might change the meaning of the program. I really dislike not having that certainty in Python.