# \[BLOG\] A different perspective on Ruby **URL:** \ **Category:** ruby-talk\ **Created:** [26 May 2005 03:46 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616 "2005-05-26T03:46:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Anonymous\_Coward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@Anonymous\_Coward](https://rubytalk.org/u/Anonymous_Coward)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 03:46 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/1 "2005-05-26T03:46:49Z")
This has perhaps been aired here already, if so, apologies. Someone did not like Ruby; I find it refreshing to read these takes as well since the actually bring up some (fairly) valid points, this one moreso than usual. [http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby](http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby) E > **···** > > -- > template\ > void quack(duck& d) { d.quack(); } ---
**Author:** ![James\_Britt4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@James\_Britt4](https://rubytalk.org/u/James_Britt4)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 04:18 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/2 "2005-05-26T04:18:50Z")
ES wrote: > This has perhaps been aired here already, if so, apologies. > > Someone did not like Ruby; I find it refreshing to read > these takes as well since the actually bring up some > (fairly) valid points, this one moreso than usual. > > [http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby](http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby) First, an OT question: Is there a Firefox extension that lets me \*quickly\* disable/enable page colors? I know I can do this via the Web dev tool bar stuff, but it's too many clicks, and sites with white text on a dark background (hip as that may be) are so painful to look at I get retina burn before I can finish all that clicking. About the log entry. I have a rule of thumb. If someone is using the words "shit" or "fuck" three or four times on page, they quickly lose all credibility. (Certain words should be treated like global variables: saved for special cases and for specific effect.) I like reading critiques (or criticism, even) of Ruby, but most of what was mentioned there were straw man arguments. Certainly POLS is a known subjective aspect and an easy target. I expect everyone reading ruby-talk could assemble a list of cases where Ruby violates their own sense of POLS. James Britt > **···** > > -- > > [http://www.ruby-doc.org](http://www.ruby-doc.org) - The Ruby Documentation Site > [http://www.rubyxml.com](http://www.rubyxml.com) - News, Articles, and Listings for Ruby & XML > [http://www.rubystuff.com](http://www.rubystuff.com) - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff > [http://www.jamesbritt.com](http://www.jamesbritt.com) - Playing with Better Toys ---
**Author:** ![Luc\_Heinrich1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Luc\_Heinrich1](https://rubytalk.org/u/Luc_Heinrich1)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 07:51 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/3 "2005-05-26T07:51:56Z")
Some valid points ? I think this guy does not know what he's talking about, or simply did not read the documentation correctly, or is simply blinded by something he should unlearn first, or simply likes making straw man arguments for the sake of it, or simply likes to rant (that I can understand, I like it too 🙂 ). And calling the language creator(s) "fucktard(s)" really doesn't help making a point, really. > **···** > > On 26 mai 05, at 05:46, ES wrote: > > > Someone did not like Ruby; I find it refreshing to read > > these takes as well since the actually bring up some > > (fairly) valid points, this one moreso than usual. > > -- > Luc Heinrich - lucsky@mac.com - [http://www.honk-honk.com](http://www.honk-honk.com) ---
**Author:** ![Andrew\_Walrond1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8c91f0/32.png) [@Andrew\_Walrond1](https://rubytalk.org/u/Andrew_Walrond1)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 09:36 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/4 "2005-05-26T09:36:01Z")
Despite the fucking swearing, he did come up with a list of almost everything that has confused or annoyed me since I started using ruby. What he neglected to mention is that Ruby is without doubt the closest attempt yet at a perfect scripting language. Sure, it has some wrinkles, but I have high hopes of those being sorted in the next iteration, whether by Matz or by somebody else standing on his (and other giants) shoulders. Despite the colourful language, an insightful critique and worth a quick browse. Andrew Walrond PS The lack of documentation regarding method thrown exceptions is perhaps my favourite criticism. Not at all core, but frustrating as hell when writing OO /exception driven programs. > **···** > > On Thursday 26 May 2005 04:46, ES wrote: > > > This has perhaps been aired here already, if so, apologies. > > > > Someone did not like Ruby; I find it refreshing to read > > these takes as well since the actually bring up some > > (fairly) valid points, this one moreso than usual. > > > > [http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby](http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby) ---
**Author:** ![Austin\_Ziegler5](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/rubytalk.org/austin_ziegler5/32/1985_2.png) [@Austin\_Ziegler5](https://rubytalk.org/u/Austin_Ziegler5)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 11:12 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/5 "2005-05-26T11:12:29Z")
I haven't seen it, and I see very little valid on that page. -austin > **···** > > On 5/25/05, ES \ wrote: > > > This has perhaps been aired here already, if so, apologies. > > > > Someone did not like Ruby; I find it refreshing to read > > these takes as well since the actually bring up some > > (fairly) valid points, this one moreso than usual. > > > > [http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby](http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby) > > -- > Austin Ziegler \* halostatue@gmail.com >                \* Alternate: austin@halostatue.ca ---
**Author:** ![GS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@GS1](https://rubytalk.org/u/GS1)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 12:35 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/6 "2005-05-26T12:35:19Z")
ES wrote: > [http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby](http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby) "It's 5.abs for absolute value, but Math.sqrt(5) for square root." Good point. That bugs me too. abs is a \*function\*, not logically a method. A few other good points, too. Shame about the presentation. Gavin ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_DeMello1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3be4f8/32.png) [@Martin\_DeMello1](https://rubytalk.org/u/Martin_DeMello1)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 05:40 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/7 "2005-05-26T05:40:18Z")
I use a bookmarklet in my bookmarks toolbar for this. [http://www.squarefree.com/bookmarklets/zap.html](http://www.squarefree.com/bookmarklets/zap.html) martin > **···** > > James Britt \ wrote: > > > First, an OT question: Is there a Firefox extension that lets me > > \*quickly\* disable/enable page colors? I know I can do this via the Web > > dev tool bar stuff, but it's too many clicks, and sites with white text > > on a dark background (hip as that may be) are so painful to look at I > > get retina burn before I can finish all that clicking. ---
**Author:** ![Dennis\_Roberts1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Dennis\_Roberts1](https://rubytalk.org/u/Dennis_Roberts1)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 08:15 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/8 "2005-05-26T08:15:36Z")
He is 18 and just out of high school and thinks he knows everything. I think everyone goes through that phase. > **···** > > On 5/26/05, Luc Heinrich \ wrote: > > > On 26 mai 05, at 05:46, ES wrote: > > > > \> Someone did not like Ruby; I find it refreshing to read > > \> these takes as well since the actually bring up some > > \> (fairly) valid points, this one moreso than usual. > > > > Some valid points ? I think this guy does not know what he's talking > > about, or simply did not read the documentation correctly, or is > > simply blinded by something he should unlearn first, or simply likes > > making straw man arguments for the sake of it, or simply likes to > > rant (that I can understand, I like it too 🙂 ). > > > > And calling the language creator(s) "fucktard(s)" really doesn't help > > making a point, really. > > > > -- > > Luc Heinrich - lucsky@mac.com - [http://www.honk-honk.com](http://www.honk-honk.com) ---
**Author:** ![gabriele\_renzi5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@gabriele\_renzi5](https://rubytalk.org/u/gabriele_renzi5)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 09:40 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/9 "2005-05-26T09:40:18Z")
Luc Heinrich ha scritto: > **···** > > > On 26 mai 05, at 05:46, ES wrote: > > > > > Someone did not like Ruby; I find it refreshing to read > > > these takes as well since the actually bring up some > > > (fairly) valid points, this one moreso than usual. > > > > Some valid points ? I think this guy does not know what he's talking about, or simply did not read the documentation correctly, or is simply blinded by something he should unlearn first, or simply likes making straw man arguments for the sake of it, or simply likes to rant (that I can understand, I like it too 🙂 ). > > I think this is a bad written rant, but I agree that I'd like implicit namespace creation a-la python and that it's refreshing to see some ruby critiques. ---
**Author:** ![Brian\_Schroder1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2bfe46/32.png) [@Brian\_Schroder1](https://rubytalk.org/u/Brian_Schroder1)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 12:38 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/10 "2005-05-26T12:38:34Z")
> ES wrote: > > \> [http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby](http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby) > > "It's 5.abs for absolute value, but Math.sqrt(5) for square root." > > Good point. That bugs me too. abs is a \*function\*, not logically a > method. Why not 5.sqrt instead. Better to ask the object to do something, that to do something with the object. That allows to use duck typing and special casing to be done in the "special cased" object. I prefer "string".length a lot over length(string) regards, Brian > **···** > > On 26/05/05, gsinclair@gmail.com \ wrote: > > > Gavin > > -- > [http://ruby.brian-schroeder.de/](http://ruby.brian-schroeder.de/) > > Stringed instrument chords: [http://chordlist.brian-schroeder.de/](http://chordlist.brian-schroeder.de/) ---
**Author:** ![Florian\_Frank2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Florian\_Frank2](https://rubytalk.org/u/Florian_Frank2)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 12:42 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/11 "2005-05-26T12:42:58Z")
gsinclair@gmail.com wrote: > Good point. That bugs me too. abs is a \*function\*, not logically a > method. What about 5.-@ ? > **···** > > -- > Florian Frank ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_DeMello1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3be4f8/32.png) [@Martin\_DeMello1](https://rubytalk.org/u/Martin_DeMello1)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 12:45 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/12 "2005-05-26T12:45:18Z")
I'd say conceptually abs belongs with floor, ceil, round and truncate. martin > **···** > > gsinclair@gmail.com \ wrote: > > > ES wrote: > > > > \> [http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby](http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby) > > > > "It's 5.abs for absolute value, but Math.sqrt(5) for square root." > > > > Good point. That bugs me too. abs is a \*function\*, not logically a > > method. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Freeze2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e480ec/32.png) [@Jim\_Freeze2](https://rubytalk.org/u/Jim_Freeze2)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 12:56 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/13 "2005-05-26T12:56:42Z")
\* gsinclair@gmail.com \ [2005-05-26 21:35:19 +0900]: > "It's 5.abs for absolute value, but Math.sqrt(5) for square root." > > Good point. That bugs me too. abs is a \*function\*, not logically a > method. My take is that there are a few methods that apply to floats and ints and bignums. These (like floor, ceil, abs) are commonly known, accepted and used functions and it makes sense to make them methods. However, my f(x) is likely to be different than your f(x). In fact, there are an infinite number f(x)'s in the world and an infinite number of function names. If Ruby included them into numeric, then I would feel like I was in Java swing. 🙂 Also, since 9/4 = 2, I'm not so sure that 5.sqrt wouldn't be 2 or 0, depending upon how you slice it. > A few other good points, too. Shame about the presentation. Nothing that hasn't been said before, but in a much more acceptable way that promotes good discussion and real action. Nothing new here people... move along, move along. > **···** > > -- > Jim Freeze > Ruby: I can explain it to ya but I can't understand it fer ya. ---
**Author:** ![Yukihiro\_Matsumoto2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Yukihiro\_Matsumoto2](https://rubytalk.org/u/Yukihiro_Matsumoto2)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 13:51 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/14 "2005-05-26T13:51:39Z")
Hi, > "It's 5.abs for absolute value, but Math.sqrt(5) for square root." > > Good point. That bugs me too. abs is a \*function\*, not logically a > method. The definition of abs is not questionable; it returns self, negated when self is negative, for all numeric value. On the other hand, natural sqrt() may return float or integer, or something else. That's the reason for sqrt() being a function in Math module. Note that the name "Math" means math.h (collection of float value functions) in Unix, not mathematics in general. Besides that, he doesn't understand what POLS means. Since someone will surprise for any arbitrary choice, it is impossible to satisfy "least surprise" in his sense. The truth is two folds: a) when there are two or more choices in the language design decision, I take the one that makes \_me\_ surprise least. b) as a result, you will have less surprise in Ruby than other languages, once you have accustomed to it. But I'm tired of explaining POLS again and again. I haven't even used it first. I hope no one will use the term "POLS" any more to sell Ruby. It's free after all.               matz. > **···** > > In message "Re: A different perspective on Ruby." on Thu, 26 May 2005 21:35:19 +0900, "gsinclair@gmail.com" \ writes: ---
**Author:** ![Anonymous\_Coward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@Anonymous\_Coward](https://rubytalk.org/u/Anonymous_Coward)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 16:31 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/15 "2005-05-26T16:31:48Z")
> ES wrote: > > > This has perhaps been aired here already, if so, apologies. > > > > Someone did not like Ruby; I find it refreshing to read > > these takes as well since the actually bring up some > > (fairly) valid points, this one moreso than usual. > > > > [http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby](http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby) > > First, an OT question: Is there a Firefox extension that lets me > \*quickly\* disable/enable page colors? I know I can do this via the Web > dev tool bar stuff, but it's too many clicks, and sites with white text > on a dark background (hip as that may be) are so painful to look at I > get retina burn before I can finish all that clicking. > > About the log entry. I have a rule of thumb. If someone is using the > words "shit" or "fuck" three or four times on page, they quickly lose > all credibility. (Certain words should be treated like global > variables: saved for special cases and for specific effect.) Ah, yes. I forgot to append a disclaimer about the language. > I like reading critiques (or criticism, even) of Ruby, but most of what > was mentioned there were straw man arguments. Certainly POLS is a known > subjective aspect and an easy target. I expect everyone reading > ruby-talk could assemble a list of cases where Ruby violates their own > sense of POLS. Sometimes it is good to know what the other people think is surprising; not because it violates some imaginary principle but because it might actually be a good idea to re-evaluate a given aspect to make it more obvious. > James Britt E > **···** > > Le 26/5/2005, "James Britt" \ a écrit: > > -- > template\ > void quack(duck& d) { d.quack(); } ---
**Author:** ![Ryo1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3be4f8/32.png) [@Ryo1](https://rubytalk.org/u/Ryo1)\ **Post date:** [28 May 2005 03:45 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/16 "2005-05-28T03:45:19Z")
> First, an OT question: Is there a Firefox extension that lets me > \*quickly\* disable/enable page colors? Use Opera! 🙂 Shift+G toggles between the user and author modes. Really handy. I switch to the author mode only when page colors matter. No offense intended, but Opera is far more feature-rich, (yet the features are hidden until you explicitly unleash them), a bit lighter (less than 4 MB including flash and friends), a bit snappier (may depend on you environment), etc. What's the catch? Nothing, except for the small add which is displayed if you don't pay (about US$40). Sorry I couldn't resist to the chance of advocacy. 🙂 I'm simpy a fan of Opera; I have nothing to do with the company, by the way. Cheers, Ryo ---
**Author:** ![Jon\_A\_Lambert2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/43a26b/32.png) [@Jon\_A\_Lambert2](https://rubytalk.org/u/Jon_A_Lambert2)\ **Post date:** [30 May 2005 01:39 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/17 "2005-05-30T01:39:45Z")
Andrew Walrond wrote: > Despite the fucking swearing, he did come up with a list of almost > everything that has confused or annoyed me since I started using ruby. I thought so. Specifically I think he nailed some things which aren't language artifacts that one has to accept. You can't tell what raises what. Half the socket routines return bullshit. The threading model is about as useful as slamming your dick in a vise. These are all horribly designed and can be fixed. > **···** > > -- > J Lambert ---
**Author:** ![gabriele\_renzi5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@gabriele\_renzi5](https://rubytalk.org/u/gabriele_renzi5)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 09:35 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/18 "2005-05-26T09:35:20Z")
Martin DeMello ha scritto: > I use a bookmarklet in my bookmarks toolbar for this. for \*just a second\* I've been thinking you used a toolbar to collect places where ruby-talk shows that POLS relates to Matz' least surprise. How lovely. ---
**Author:** ![Cameron\_McBride](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a87d85/32.png) [@Cameron\_McBride](https://rubytalk.org/u/Cameron_McBride)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 12:53 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/19 "2005-05-26T12:53:47Z")
I would also agree. This did make me ponder when I initially found it. If they have to be in a module, wouldn't it make sense to have it be default includeable? Cameron > **···** > > On 5/26/05, Brian Schröder \ wrote: > > > On 26/05/05, gsinclair@gmail.com \ wrote: > > \> ES wrote: > > \> > > \> \> [http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby](http://www.ericw.org/rants/showrant.psp?rant=ruby) > > \> > > \> "It's 5.abs for absolute value, but Math.sqrt(5) for square root." > > \> > > \> Good point. That bugs me too. abs is a \*function\*, not logically a > > \> method. > > \> > > > > Why not 5.sqrt instead. Better to ask the object to do something, that > > to do something with the object. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Levitt1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Jay\_Levitt1](https://rubytalk.org/u/Jay_Levitt1)\ **Post date:** [26 May 2005 14:35 UTC](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616/20 "2005-05-26T14:35:18Z")
In article \<1117115503.104127.21363.nullmailer@x31.priv.netlab.jp\>, matz@ruby-lang.org says... > Besides that, he doesn't understand what POLS means. Since someone > will surprise for any arbitrary choice, it is impossible to satisfy > "least surprise" in his sense. The truth is two folds: a) when there > are two or more choices in the language design decision, I take the > one that makes \_me\_ surprise least. b) as a result, you will have > less surprise in Ruby than other languages, once you have accustomed > to it. Nicely put. I suggest we start referring to the POMLS - Principle of Matz's Least Surprise. That way, if anyone ever debates it, you can pop in and say "I wasn't surprised at all," thus authoritatively refuting the argument! > **···** > > -- > Jay Levitt | > Wellesley, MA | I feel calm. I feel ready. I can only > Faster: jay at jay dot fm | conclude that's because I don't have a > [http://www.jay.fm](http://www.jay.fm) | full grasp of the situation. - Mark Adler [Next page](https://rubytalk.org/t/blog-a-different-perspective-on-ruby/18616.md?page=2)